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Old 07-14-2009, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Over the Rainbow...
5,963 posts, read 10,494,121 times
Reputation: 3135

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Whisperer View Post
Simple. I can best illustrate with a story:

The other day I was watching one of those new "green channels" on cable and they had some show featuring a bunch of "researchers" making an expedition up to Alaska to observe melting glaciers, methane bubbles in lakes on the north slope, salmon runs... Anyway, one of these guys does a trip up into the Wrangell-Saint Elias to observe Dall Sheep. After a few days or weeks, whatever, his learned, eriudite conclusion is simply: "I need to come back and do more research". That one senetnce crystalizes everything that has been said so far in this discusiion about scientists, environmentalists, conservationists, money, etc.

We all see and ridicule this behavior all the time in the business world. A new manager gets promoted and what's the first thing they do? Put together some more complicated business plans to justify hiring a new staff, raising an expesnse and travel acount, putting in new policies, all of course administered by themselves. It's called "dynasty bulding" or "manufacturing job security" - a form of protecting ones self interest by making one (in theory) less expendable. Politicians are notorious for the same thing - determining the need for some new commission or committe to solve some manufactured problem (with themself at the chair of course) thus requiring a new budget, staff, aides, laws, regulations, etc.

Scientists or researchers are no different, THEY ARE WORKING STIFFS JUST LIKE THE REST OF US. When given the opportunity to enhance their own job security, they jump like all the rest. They have to eat and pay the bills just like everyone else. The root cause lies in the fact that, despite it's lofty objectives, science is an institution with the same crippling weakeness as all the rest - it ultimately depends on the human being. Just as business and politics are subject to human failings, and thus deserve healthy doses of scrutiny and skepticism, so does science.

In other words, it's already widely accepted that politicians and businessmen have made a complete mess of things. There's no reason to believe that scientists aren't doing the same.
Very well said!

 
Old 07-14-2009, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Maryland not Murlin
8,185 posts, read 21,741,076 times
Reputation: 6116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Whisperer View Post

Scientists or researchers are no different, THEY ARE WORKING STIFFS JUST LIKE THE REST OF US. When given the opportunity to enhance their own job security, they jump like all the rest. They have to eat and pay the bills just like everyone else. The root cause lies in the fact that, despite it's lofty objectives, science is an institution with the same crippling weakeness as all the rest - it ultimately depends on the human being. Just as business and politics are subject to human failings, and thus deserve healthy doses of scrutiny and skepticism, so does science.

In other words, it's already widely accepted that politicians and businessmen have made a complete mess of things. There's no reason to believe that scientists aren't doing the same.
Not all scientists are researchers, and not all researchers are scientists. In fact, most scientists are as you described, working stiffs. As far as science is concerned, the majority of studies are conducted with grant money. When the grant money runs out, the research project ends until more funding can be raised/found. Whether a scientists goes up to Alaska to study sheep, the climate, or effin salmon poop does not mean a darn thing about their length of stay.

There is also another situation; science is an on-going endeavor. When one question is answered, another one (or two, or three) takes its place. If a scientists needs to come back it is possible that they concluded their first study and want to come back to study some other aspect of it.

Most scientists make little in the way of pay. Even those with Ph.D's.
 
Old 07-14-2009, 02:43 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,455 posts, read 21,469,319 times
Reputation: 8412
Quote:
Originally Posted by karfar View Post
Amazing. You guys live in a gorgeous area yet the word "conservation" or "environmentalist" throws you in a tizzy. Can't quite figure out why some of you have such illogical disdain for it.
Because of the kind of games these groups play.
 
Old 07-14-2009, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Barrow, Alaska
3,539 posts, read 6,412,168 times
Reputation: 1828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Whisperer View Post


I got to get me some of those juicy shoe strings!
First you should take an Adult Basic Education course, and learn a little bit of arithmetic. So that you can understand that millions of dollars being spend by dozens of people doesn't amount to much for each one individually.

And since the money goes to do research, and cannot be used to buy the luxery you want, maybe you should also take a course in Home Economics.
 
Old 07-14-2009, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Barrow, Alaska
3,539 posts, read 6,412,168 times
Reputation: 1828
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
Because of the kind of games these groups play.
A red herring if there ever was one.

You cite only non-environmentalists, and ignore real ones.
 
Old 07-14-2009, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Barrow, Alaska
3,539 posts, read 6,412,168 times
Reputation: 1828
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
Head down here and see "global warming"...if you can find it. LOL Hasn't been too warm out by my land in Alaska either, I've kept track of the weather there and compare it to the past...the earth has cooled and many scientists know that.
You wouldn't know what climate was if you saw it...

Like Starlite9 you actually believe your own meager observations (of weather) tell you something about climate. That is hilarious.
 
Old 07-14-2009, 04:27 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,455 posts, read 21,469,319 times
Reputation: 8412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson View Post
A red herring if there ever was one.

You cite only non-environmentalists, and ignore real ones.
So name me some real environmentalists if the self-proclaimed ones aren't.
 
Old 07-14-2009, 04:28 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,455 posts, read 21,469,319 times
Reputation: 8412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson View Post
You wouldn't know what climate was if you saw it...

Like Starlite9 you actually believe your own meager observations (of weather) tell you something about climate. That is hilarious.
Well, living in a place your whole life, you do notice when things change. And a bit of research, looking at the recorded weather of the past, can verify those observations.
 
Old 07-14-2009, 04:37 PM
 
4,986 posts, read 8,284,150 times
Reputation: 3264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson View Post
First you should take an Adult Basic Education course, and learn a little bit of arithmetic. So that you can understand that millions of dollars being spend by dozens of people doesn't amount to much for each one individually.
Really? All you claim are "millions" and "dozens". Without quantifying it, that could be anything up to $999 million for 2 dozen people, or $41,625,000 each. Sweet!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson View Post
And since the money goes to do research, and cannot be used to buy the luxery you want, maybe you should also take a course in Home Economics.
Like anything else, a significant portion of research goes towards labor costs. These people aren't up there for free, they are getting paid a salary and most likely living expenses as well. No one said they were millionaires, but they obviously aren't paupers either.
 
Old 07-14-2009, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Barrow, Alaska
3,539 posts, read 6,412,168 times
Reputation: 1828
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
Well, living in a place your whole life, you do notice when things change. And a bit of research, looking at the recorded weather of the past, can verify those observations.
You haven't got a clue what global warming is...

And your "observations" about Alaska are even more hilarious.
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