Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Alaska
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-11-2009, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Barrow, Alaska
3,539 posts, read 7,606,634 times
Reputation: 1836

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueflames50 View Post
ouch...thank you very much...I was trying to be facetious but it did not come across that way and I humbly apologize for this,,,
I don't think you should apologize. You put a smiley on it, it was obvious what you meant. I took advantage of that to point out that while you make a little fun of it, the fact is that that is exactly how our culture views it!

I think we made a very good point (and it was a group effort, that took both comments to get across too).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-11-2009, 10:30 PM
 
Location: Bethel, Alaska
471 posts, read 1,056,885 times
Reputation: 178
Sorry for for showing my libertarian and my anti-people side... buuut it was said before as sarcasm, but its a valid point.

Why do we need to put a warning label on a cup of coffee to say its hot? Why do we need to be told that the effects of pot are bad (while still leaving tobacco legalized) and taking it away from us? Why do we need the government (on any level) to say you cannot drink because you might do something bad?

While I know that (especially in drinking) the causalities are far too often not the drinker themselves... Government control on it is not a viable answer. If you think so, lets look at how the mafia grew so rapidly. Government should stay out of our lives, and let us run it ourselves. Laws for VIOLATIONS should be higher... yes this is REactive not PROactive and that typically is not a good solution, but we do the same thing with guns, and I know 99% of you are going to agree that we do not want our guns taken away (i am also not a gun owner -and for people who have not been following I don't drink-). Drinking can be done responsibly, just like owning a gun... We need to increase the penalties for doing bad things WHILE drinking. Why is it that a person who is drunk driving can kill someone and only get 20 years for manslaughter? THATS the problem... there are no real concenquences.

Last edited by teamcoltra; 10-11-2009 at 10:31 PM.. Reason: The government should educate us, I lost my train of thought
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-11-2009, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Barrow, Alaska
3,539 posts, read 7,606,634 times
Reputation: 1836
Quote:
Originally Posted by warptman View Post
Alcohol isn't a Native American disease, it was brought upon us by the white man. Thousands of years we didn't depend on it and we got by without it.
Alcohol was here long before Europeans. And inability to metabolize alcohol is a normal genetic variation. (Granted that enables the disease we call alcoholism.) But all of that misses the important point!

The cultures that developed in this hemisphere virtually all (but not totally) learned how to cope with alcohol in a way that did not kill off 90% of their population. They developed social mechanisms and value systems that worked well, and accomplished other similar functionality too. The horrible diseases that spread through Europe because of wide spread poor hygiene did not happen here. The social ills that accompanied serfdom, and warfare on a grand scale, didn't happen either.

What Europeans brought wasn't alcohol, it was the uncaring concept that accepts one individual using alcohol to get rich at the expense of the lives of others. Essentially it amounts to a Boston based whaling ship could show up at a village in Northwest Alaska and sell whiskey by the barrel without interference; while if any indigenous person had done the same thing they would have been executed promptly. The whaler instead was hailed as a highly profitable operation rather than a criminal one.

As can be seen, Western culture is still importing that concept to Alaskan villages. E.g., people think that "individual liberty" is an American invention. It is! It was invented here hundreds of years before Europeans knew that America existed! It was even codified in the Iroquois' constitution. And today the USA is having a great debate on universal health care over issues that indigenous cultures in America worked out long ago.

For example, when the city of Bethel wanted to build a nursing home for their elders, the State of Alaska insisted their elders should be moved to Anchorage... because it would cost less money. My daughter testified (as a spokesperson for YKHC at the time) in public meetings that such a move also amounts to killing the elders...

Virtually the only health care facilities in Bush Alaska are those operated under government compacts by Native tribal governments. They are funded, at only 60% of need, by the Indian Health Service. Another wonderful imported set of values from Western culture!

Our problem here is not one culture over running another. It is one culture refuses to learn from another culture! (Granted the effort then is to over run it to avoid being reminded that it had anything to learn...)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2009, 01:02 AM
 
Location: Barrow, Alaska
3,539 posts, read 7,606,634 times
Reputation: 1836
Quote:
Originally Posted by teamcoltra View Post
Why do we need to put a warning label on a cup of coffee to say its hot? Why do we need to be told that the effects of pot are bad (while still leaving tobacco legalized) and taking it away from us? Why do we need the government (on any level) to say you cannot drink because you might do something bad?
Because even people with an IQ of 75 are humans. Their mother's love them, so do their brothers. Even some neighbors love them. They are entitled to "due process" and "equality" just the same as your neighbors.

The Libertarian movement seems to attract many of them...

Quote:
While I know that (especially in drinking) the causalities are far too often not the drinker themselves... Government control on it is not a viable answer. If you think so, lets look at how the mafia grew so rapidly. Government should stay out of our lives, and let us run it ourselves. Laws for VIOLATIONS should be higher...
What exactly is it about government laws that should be higher which is not part of your concept of government staying out of our lives? You contradict yourself!

Quote:
Drinking can be done responsibly, just like owning a gun... We need to increase the penalties for doing bad things WHILE drinking. Why is it that a person who is drunk driving can kill someone and only get 20 years for manslaughter? THATS the problem... there are no real concenquences.
No, the problem is that no matter if it's 20 years or the hangman, you can't bring back the person who was killed.

The appropriate government action (read that as "what we as a group of people called a civilized society") is one that prevents that death in the first place.

[sarcasm=on]
It does require an IQ of over 75 to understand that though. So we may just have to execute anyone who does not accept it. We can start with all self proclaimed Libertarians??? (And then get about half of the Republicans too, eh?)
[/sarcasm]

Note: Sarcasm is not humor, it is not funny. That is the opposite extreme, and it is the process used by many a dictator. Neither extreme (no government or total government) is valid.

Last edited by Floyd_Davidson; 10-12-2009 at 01:08 AM.. Reason: Added the Note:
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2009, 07:23 AM
 
Location: on top of a mountain
6,992 posts, read 12,647,387 times
Reputation: 3286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson View Post
I don't think you should apologize. You put a smiley on it, it was obvious what you meant. I took advantage of that to point out that while you make a little fun of it, the fact is that that is exactly how our culture views it!

I think we made a very good point (and it was a group effort, that took both comments to get across too).
yes it is sad our so many in our culture view it so lightly as with drugs also. I am trying to find an article that I printed out about a drug in England that they found when taken stops the craving for alcohol and the success with it was 100% at the time of publishing. will have to wait though as I am packing to leave today, when I get home next weekend I will search for it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2009, 08:13 AM
 
Location: on top of a mountain
6,992 posts, read 12,647,387 times
Reputation: 3286
Sorry for for showing my libertarian and my anti-people side... buuut it was said before as sarcasm, but its a valid point.

Ifyou are refering to my post Team...it was definitely NOT said as sarcasm..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2009, 05:17 PM
 
26,486 posts, read 36,338,220 times
Reputation: 29543
My concern is this: I read the list of how much alcohol an individual could already get flown out to Bethel (remember, it wasn't a real "dry" community but rather a damp one where certain amounts could be purchased). Can't remember where, either ADN or the Ketchikan paper. It seemed like quite a bit; enough to allow an individual to drink every day, but probably not enough to give or sell to other people, particularly minors. So my concern would be that it could make alcohol more available to underaged people.

Quote:
Why do we need the government (on any level) to say you cannot drink because you might do something bad?
I don't believe that the government told the citizens of Bethel that they couldn't drink. It's my understanding that the citizens of Bethel enacted the limitations themselves at one time in the past. And my community in SE Alaska elects to remain a dry community; I'd rather have it that way than some blanket federal regulation saying that they can't make their own laws regarding it. If it makes it a little tougher for the young kids to get ahold of it, and I think that's probably the reasoning behind it, then I'm all for it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2009, 05:50 PM
 
26,486 posts, read 36,338,220 times
Reputation: 29543
Quote:
Originally Posted by warptman View Post
Alcohol isn't a Native American disease, it was brought upon us by the white man. Thousands of years we didn't depend on it and we got by without it. Now I see a bunch of friends who depend on it. They don't work and ran off most of their friends because of it. Many times I've tried to help them by telling them that they aren't getting anywhere in life because of it. Never works. Once they have it in their system, it's hard for them to change. Now getting more of it available, I'm sure we'll see deaths over this winter because they can't control themselves. Of course, the sponsors of the lifting of the limits are white...go figure.
We know...Warpt. No one's blaming the Natives. Smallpox was a white man's disease as well, but that didn't stop it from killing many people on the North American continent at one time.

Don't stop being a good example, don't stop telling people how it's screwing up their lives, even if you feel that it's futile. Because no matter what government does or does not do, people like yourself are the best resource that your communities have. You don't know that some little kid isn't going to look at you, want to be like you, and make decisions that are reflective of that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2009, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Bethel, Alaska
21,368 posts, read 37,925,943 times
Reputation: 13901
Thanks Met...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2009, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Alaska
1,437 posts, read 4,783,890 times
Reputation: 933
Warpt, I'm really sorry this passed up there.
This was not a good thing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Alaska
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top