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By the way, there was no "Give a way" of the land for the Pipeline terminal in Valdez, the property was bought, cash money.
Mark....you are so fulla bs I bet your eyes are brown.....just another example of the fact that nothing you contribute in this thread is worth reading as you really have no knowledge
You're called these Alaska Native liars then....?
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It begins in 1969 when big shots from Humble Oil and ARCO (now known as Exxon and British Petroleum) met with the Chugach Natives, owners of the most valuable parcel of land on the planet: Valdez Port, the only conceivable terminus for a pipeline that would handle a trillion dollars in crude oil.
These Alaskan natives ultimately agreed to sell the Exxon consortium this astronomically valuable patch of land -- for a single dollar.
The Natives refused cash.
Rather, in 1969, they asked only that the oil companies promise to protect their Prince William Sound fishing and seal hunting grounds from oil.
If all of this supposed outrage over lack of safety and concern for the environment demonstrated here in this thread WAS ACTUALLY GENUINE, then you (and the other posters here) would be DEMANDING, with the same zeal and passion already expressed in previous postings that:
First world, developed nations with the strictest environmental controls (such as the US, UK. Canada, etc) take the lead in global oil production. Instead, all I hear is crazed ranting about how ALL offshore drilling should be suspended, thus by default forcing future oil production into third world regions where safety and environmental concerns are secondary, if they exist at all.
That these oil companies then be granted access to the SAFEST areas in which to drill – namely on dry land (ANWR, et al) and the shallow OCS, where PROVEN, RELIABLE technologies for oil spill containment and cleanup have existed for decades.
Why do you think BP and other oil companies drill in 5000+ feet of water where emergency procedures are untested? Because they want to destroy the planet as I have heard here so many times before? The economic consequences of this disaster could well put BP out of business. It is simply illogical to think that any oil company wants to destroy the environment or kill its workers.
Because there is an endless stream of whining from Environmentalists and NIMBY’s who don’t want production near where they live or within sight of “their” shoreline, the oil producers are continuously forced to drill in places where conditions are the absolute worst for purposes of spill containment and cleanup, while vast sources of untapped energy lay fallow in safer, accessible, logical places to drill.
No, you and your ilk are the TRUE OBSTACLES to safety and real environmental protection in the modern world. Rather than being willing to PAY for safety, there is constant screaming and endless congressional hearings on fictitious price conspiracies, encouraging producers to cut corners just to stay in business. Rather than insisting on the safest means possible for oil production, the mind-numbing amount of senseless environmental hand-wringing actually forces production into the most dangerous areas and risky methodologies.
EVEN WITH FULL SCALE DEVELOPMENT OF ALTERNATE ENERGY SOURCES, OIL PRODUCTION WILL CONTINUE FOR DECADES TO COME ON PLANET EARTH. The oil is going to be drilled whether you like it or not. You might as well become part of the solution, instead of continuing as part of the problem.
Yes, I stand by what I said. The blatant hypocrisy demonstrated in this discussion, and in our greater national political debate as a whole, is not only killing our economy, it is killing our environment as well.
Sorry Moose, can't rep you, got to do some more first.
The fact that all the detractors here use oil, have some blame to share. Not because they are doing the drilling, but because they are the end consumer that is why the Oilmen drill.
The screaming about BP is going to pay is just hogwash. The consumer is going to pay...all of it. BP may get hit will fines and have to pay Billions for the cleanup up front, but the costs simply gets passed down to the consumer just like the EXXON Valdez spill did.
The sky is falling crowd, the next time you fill up, see how much you are paying. The oil companies only make about a buck a gallon right now, the rest is taxes from the local, state and federal governments that go for the free ride on your dime.
During the EXXON Valdez spill the same rants were heard all over America, now there is major tours back in the PWS and nobody sees any oil, unless of course they bring it with them to make fake docudramas as CC posted by the WWF, or go to the main point of impact and dig down four feet where the oil is inert and harms nothing as it is decaying.
The gulf spill in the gulf covers thousands of square miles, but is most of it is less than the depth of a human hair's thickness or less, it is called a sheen. Most of it will never see land fall, it will break up and be absorbed into the ocean and eaten by bacteria and much will evaporate into the air, some may end up as tarballs and drop to the bottom of the ocean and do nothing.
Even the following years after the spill in PWS, there was so many salmon returning the prices for salmon dropped though the floor for years, seems the spill didn't affect them as claimed and they returned en mass. Although they tried to blame the spill as the reason the price dropped, the salmon catches were record numbers and the canneries simply had too much.
During the trial of Hazelwood, they weren't allowed to bring up the number of record salmon returning because it may sway the jury, well yeah, I could see why, the disaster wouldn't have sounded as bad...
Well I am out of here on this thread, the lynch mob can go back to screaming the end is near and hang the bastards... but next time the gas hits five bucks a gallon, remember that we send Billions and Billions of our dollars to Countries that don't like us and have been and will still try to kill us, panic about that.
To CC and others, I applaud your efforts. IMO the best site on the internet to learn and get your questions answered regarding this catastrophe is on The Oil Drum: The Oil Drum | Discussions about Energy and Our Future
For those of you who are interested. . . there is a small, powerful industry (for lack of a better term) that is hired by the likes of our government, BP, Exxon, Dupont (think Bophal, India) when these type of events happen.
It is termed "outrage management". Their first step is to "extend a hand" to the outraged parties to get them talking in order to get said parties to think they are involved in the process ie: they are being heard.
It is no more than corporate damage control a la psychology.
Do a search for Dr. Peter Sandman (amazing name for a guy in the business of "Outrage Management)
So he teaches how to reduce the Risk to corporations (money and reputation) by reducing the outraged parties perceptions of what is happening and what the company in question is doing about it (that is the Hazard)
That is why, to a large degree, we the public never get the full facts as they occur. TPTB spread out the bad news over the longest possible time frame, spin the best case delusional full of lies outcome, obfuscate, give snippets of information that give cause for hope when there is none, use phrases like "unprecedented", "no one could have known" etc . . . .when in they did know. It lowers the overall level of hazard perception by the public which then tempers their response, thereby lowering the "Risk" to the company or government.
This guy and his wife, and a few others, go around teaching corporations and government departments how to do this. He is knowingly working against the public good.
Last edited by Homesteader; 05-27-2010 at 11:50 PM..
I thought I would post another comment before getting on with my day.
We were all born into this unsustainable system we call civilization. We were all brought up to believe this system was going to continue and only get better and better. That we would accumulate more and more wealth, that our kids would have it better than we have it, that technology would continually improve our quality of life. (how you define "improve" is up to you, but I assume you understand how I use the word in this context)
This catastrophe underscores that we are at the end of the age of oil. The oil companies are left with drilling deep wells in deep water and the arctic. Our civilization runs on hydrocarbons. The fantastic growth of the human population and the myriad of technology that we take for granted from health care to ipods in the last 100 years has been made possible by hydrocarbons.Cheap, easily accessible, high quality hydrocarbons are just about done. Capitalism only works in an expanding economy. The global economy runs on hydrocarbons. The debt economy only works when future earnings increase so that the interest on the debt can be paid. This requires continual growth. Growth of the global economy requires energy input. Most of the energy input comes from hydrocarbons.
Renewables like solar, wind etc. . . aren't going to do the trick and keep civilization humming along . . . their design, manufacture and maintenance require huge inputs of hydrocarbons. Example: wind turbines do not produce enough energy to manufacture themselves and have any energy left over for you and me to use. Hydro-electric turbines are built and maintained with hydrocarbons.
IMO the best path forward is to work together to build resiliant communities. Start building and strengthening your town/regions infrastructure so that as much as possible can be produced, purchased and traded locally.
All of you in AK already have a head start in this regard.
Do your self a favor and buy from your neighbor.
My apologies for this post perhaps being a bit off topic.
Geez...couple long-winded posts, I just kinda scan Marks posts now days as they all kinda read the same with nothing much correct.
So Maurice...
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I seriously doubt it.
Wrong....I need a few gallons to go fishing everyday in the summers as those big ole Merc Verado's like their gasoline..... I just don't need it coming from a low-life company like BP, when we have much better producers. Their leases need to be suspended in US waters and passed to producers that don't have 760 violations and $373 million in fines in one calender year....make sense to ya...?
In your first sentence there, by putting in the word you, this part was directed at me I guess. How about ya find a post where I advocated (1) "ALL offshore drilling should be suspended"...go for it.
(2)....dry land drilling. I don't have any problem with that at all, as long as it ain't BP. Let 'em go drill on dry land in Britain
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endless stream of whining from Environmentalists
You're saying this is a bad thing, are you...??
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you and your ilk
You don't have more class then that now...?
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True obstacles to safety...
hardly...I'll call bullchit on that one
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"The blatant hypocrisy demonstrated in this discussion"
hogwash....you can't come close to showing proof of that
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is not only killing our economy, it is killing our environment as well.
This is pure fabrication and you know it..
Lot of opinions, which you are certainly welcome to have...
lotta pet feel-good words or phrases tossed out, I guess that accomplishes something...
"the sky is falling crowd" who is that, ain't seen 'em here...more of Marks made-up crappolla
Maurice...one point I'll agree with...something like "this could put BP out of business"
That ain't a bad thing and not many would lose much sleep if we're lucky enough to that happen, we just wanna watch them spend their way into poverty first.
ABC News tonight:
BP ran up in the US 760 "egregious, willful" safety violations...behind them with 8 each were Sunaco and Conoco-Phillips
BP paid $373 million in fines to avoid prosecution
worst safety track records of any major oil company operating in the United States
In two separate disasters prior to the Gulf oil rig explosion, 30 BP workers have been killed, and more than 200 seriously injured. BP's Dismal Safety Record - ABC News
Marks final post reads like a fairy tale..none of his wild-ass claims, which there are several, can be support by factual information
Now he stomps off like a child when I show he was wrong about the Valdez terminal property being a freebie to big oil from Alaska Natives in return for their promise of safety equipment to keep their fishing grounds safe if an oil spill occurred...we know how that promise turned out....they did it on paper only
Last edited by Captain Crunch; 05-28-2010 at 01:16 AM..
We were all born into this unsustainable system we call civilization. We were all brought up to believe this system was going to continue and only get better and better.
Yep, you hit upon one of my favorite ideas: There's nothing saying that civilization has to work. I will admit I've always had a special interest in the Olduvai Theory. And even if it's not energy that eventually brings the crash, there are plenty of other indications that long-term, industrialized civilization may just not be compatible with basic human nature.
In any case, it is possible that the next few decades may in fact be the most tumultuous in all of human history (though I don't think we are as close to the petroleum crash yet as many theorists propose). In any event, we may all need to buckle up for a bumpy ride!
They are saying this morning that they have stopped the leak. They meaning the feds and BP. We on the other hand, at least here in Eagle River.... is us.
BP has NOT stopped the leak. It's looking more and more like this "Top Kill" is a failure, and they're considering future strategies.
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