Albany Area Rising- need commuter rail (New York, Syracuse: live, prices, versus)

[Logan11]

You think about the many billions that they are spending on a Second Avenue Subway line in Manhattan when half their stations look like they haven't seen any renovation in a Century....and yet we can't get the funding to build a starter light rail line in this area.

But alas Bruno and company have steered quite a bit of largesse to the area (Sematec, maybe AMD etc.) .....pork barrel they call it and probably corrupt, but we don't turn it down of course.

Originally Posted by X-man rising

For example, rather than throwing around un-educated opinions about cost, do you know what it would cost to build a starter line between Schenectady and Rensselaer Amtrak, via Albany? I do. Depending on the method, $300,000,000-$700,000,000, of which, typically, the feds pick uo 60%-75% of the cost with TEA-21 monies.

X

[JayCT]

Originally Posted by X-man rising

OK, suburban sheltereds, with all do respect, get your heads out of your behinds!!!! I lived in Albany for 6 years, was involved in a nearly successful attempt to bring Light Rail to the area. It was ignorant Garmin239s and JayCTs and moronic, scared policy-makers who killed it all.

Albany-metro seriously lacks vision. Joe Bruno needs to get off his ass and push through the state's portion of funding needed to make a Central Ave starter line a go. For you uneducateds:

the albany-schenectady-troy triangle has a higher population density than Atlanta, San Diego, Dallas, and Portland, to name more than a few cities with LRT and or subways. Before weighing in, get a clue.

For example, rather than throwing around un-educated opinions about cost, do you know what it would cost to build a starter line between Schenectady and Rensselaer Amtrak, via Albany? I do. Depending on the method, $300,000,000-$700,000,000, of which, typically, the feds pick uo 60%-75% of the cost with TEA-21 monies.

Any idea what it costs to build and/or maintain highways? Billions. Do you know ridership counts for the Route 5 corridor on existing busses? Greater than 10,000 per day.

Do you know how many riders are needed to make a line viable? 10,000 plus. Did you know ridership ALWAYS increases with rail service replacing bus service or that real estate values soar? Did you know that public rail transit is an effective way to control urban development and invigorate local housing, retail and planning efforts?

Did you know, electric rail is cleaner than toxic fume-spewing cars? And, it sets up nicely to be run by solar in the coming years. Did you know dedicated transit is FASTER than all other options in congested areas, if planned properly? Do you care about the environment? Who pays for our road construction, parking facilities and maintenance, fairies? (nope, but do you know???)

Gee, didn't think so? There are many a reason that dozens of cities are building or have built Light Rail and subway systems in the USA. It works. I moved from Albany to Portland (three lines going, with three on the way, plus a streetcar system) then Seattle (commuter rail system with Light Rail/subway under construction). Trust me, I know.

Albany naysayers are SUCKERS. Get out of the 20th Century, and onto the future that is NOW: trains are back. Albany, sadly, is not.

X

I think you need to get your head out of your behind. There is so much misinformation in your response that you are the one who is obviously uneducated here. Albany has no where near the population of any of the cities that you identify. Their metropolitain area populations are as follows:

Atlanta - 4,247,981
San Diego - 2,813,833
Dallas - 5,161,544
Portland - 1,927,881
Albany/Schenectady/Troy - 825,875

You then indicate that the cost of one of these lines is $300 to $700 million dollars. This is for a line that will serve a very limited number of people who live along a specific corridor. That is a huge amount of money for a line that will serve only a few thousand people.

Oh but wait, the cost doesn't matter to you because the Fed's will pick up "65% to 70%" percent of the costs. It does matter because despite your logic the Feds only have a limited amount of money to give and there is a line of other projects a mile long that are more cost effective and would be a better return on the money spent than this one.

Oh yes, and TEA-21 is no longer the funding program. That program went from 1998 to 2003.

As for who pays for the highways and parking, no it is not the "fairies". These items are funded through the Highway Trust Fund which is funded by the taxes on gasoline and other fees levied on vehicles that use the highways. Where does the Federal share of the Mass-Transit cost come from - the Highway Trust Fund and your taxes. Mass-transit rarely generates enough income to be self-sufficent, even in Portland.

Also, so you know, I am in the 21st Century and a Transportation Professional, so I know these things. Now you should just join me in the real world and stop being so rude about it. Jay

[Logan11]

Hey maybe we are a smaller area than those cities, but light rail would still be a good thing if we could get someone else to pay for it.

Ever try driving on the Northway during rush hour from Albany to Saratoga? ....especially during the Summer season. Don't tell me its an easy commute. OK it isn't the West Side Highway in Manhattan, but it also isn't pretty.

I-90 west bottles up also at quitting time as people are trying to enter the Northway.

A couple weeks ago I-90 west was at a dead stop near Everett Road and I bailed and took Everett Road to Albany Shaker Road west (that was almost stopped) ..so I went down a bit and tried to go west on Sand Creek Road (that was crawling) and it took a good 30 minutes to get from Everett Road to Wolf Road. Just an example....

Maybe we aren't as worthy as some bigger metro areas, but if we can convince someone to fund a light rail ...then go for it!

[NooYowkur81]

There are talks of creating a high speed line between Albany, some other other upstate cities and NYC. It could be years before its created though. It would be huge for the upstate area if something like that ever got built.

[garmin239]

Originally Posted by Logan11

I'm not sure that the other major upstate Metro areas are ALOT bigger. The core counties here of Albany/Saratoga/Rensselaer/Albany contain 818,761 as per 2006 census estimate with over a million if you include areas if neighboring counties. I'll repost the figures below.

Also some of the area swells with weekenders and summer home owners (Saratoga especially) so that means the true population is greater at those times.

Greater Capital District Counties (2000 -> 2006 and percent change)

Core Counties:

Albany 294,565 -> 297,556 +1.7%
Rensselaer 152,538 -> 155,292 +1.8%
Saratoga 200,635 -> 215,473 +7.4%
Schenectady 146,555 -> 150,440 +2.7%

Surrounding Counties:

Columbia 63,094 -> 62,955, -0.2%*
Fulton 55,073 -> 55,435, +0.7%
Greene 48,195 -> 49,822 +3.4%
Montgomery 49,708 -> 49,112 -1.2%
Schoharie 31,582 -> 32,196 +1.9%
Warren 63,303 -> 66,087, +4.4%
Washington 61,042 -> 63,368 +3.8%

Total Region from 2000 -> 2006 = 1,166,290 -> 1,197,736 +2.7%

* I find the loss in Columbia as suspicious because anyone can see that it has continued to see new construction (especially in its nw corner that borders suburban Rensselaer) and also northward migration from downstate.

Saratoga has been the fastest growing since the 1980s.

Census Bureau estimate as of 2006 was 215,473

Population, percent change, April 1, 2000 to July 1, 2006 was + 7.4%

1960 89,096
1970 121,764
1980 153,759
1990 181,276
2000 200,635

Thats great and everything but those numbers still put the Albany msa below a million people, a population that is much less lower than most places with commuter rails. Plus Albany does not have the traffic congestion. Some of you may think that certain areas have bad traffic but its nothing compared to other areas of the country with commuter rails. Once the area grows much larger and has the traffic problems of larger areas, you will see a light rail. You need to give people a reason to ride the train. Bad traffic is that reason.

[X-man rising]

Originally Posted by garmin239

I'm ignorant and moronic because I said that the capitol region does not have a large population? ummmm ok.
What I said is true, the area does not have a large population compared to other areas with LTR systems. You need a bigger population base in order for this to work. You need a reason for people to ride the train . People in these big metro areas take the train because traffic is very bad due to the very large populations. Albany and other upstate cities don't have these huge population bases, dense or not. Once traffic starts getting bad in these areas (87 is not bad at all), large amounts of people will want different options.
I'm not anti-train, just realistic.

I LIVED in Portland for many years. Traffic is NOT worse there. They built Light Rail as a PREVENTATIVE measure, as a RESPONSIBLE act and as a compliment/improvement to current transit options of the time. If we plan strictly off old notions, we will fail.

Your assertions hold no real weight. They're tired old stereotypes. Population density and transit usage are what counts here. CDTAs ridership numbers are very good for a metro area its size, especially along the corridor the started line was proposed for. Ugh.

[garmin239]

Traffic is worse there. Even with the LTR system. Population density only counts if the population is dense in a large area. That is not the case with the capital region. You have small pockets of densely populated areas, making commutes relatively easy. Ridership numbers are decent among most large upstate cities, that does not mean a light rail is needed. You can not put a train in many of these places that buses go. Its not a reality just yet. You have to wait a while.
I'll take the word of a civil engineer over some condescending childish name caller on the internet.

[X-man rising]

Originally Posted by JayCT

I think you need to get your head out of your behind. There is so much misinformation in your response that you are the one who is obviously uneducated here. Albany has no where near the population of any of the cities that you identify. Their metropolitain area populations are as follows:

Atlanta - 4,247,981
San Diego - 2,813,833
Dallas - 5,161,544
Portland - 1,927,881
Albany/Schenectady/Troy - 825,875

You then indicate that the cost of one of these lines is $300 to $700 million dollars. This is for a line that will serve a very limited number of people who live along a specific corridor. That is a huge amount of money for a line that will serve only a few thousand people.

Oh but wait, the cost doesn't matter to you because the Fed's will pick up "65% to 70%" percent of the costs. It does matter because despite your logic the Feds only have a limited amount of money to give and there is a line of other projects a mile long that are more cost effective and would be a better return on the money spent than this one.

Oh yes, and TEA-21 is no longer the funding program. That program went from 1998 to 2003.

As for who pays for the highways and parking, no it is not the "fairies". These items are funded through the Highway Trust Fund which is funded by the taxes on gasoline and other fees levied on vehicles that use the highways. Where does the Federal share of the Mass-Transit cost come from - the Highway Trust Fund and your taxes. Mass-transit rarely generates enough income to be self-sufficent, even in Portland.

Also, so you know, I am in the 21st Century and a Transportation Professional, so I know these things. Now you should just join me in the real world and stop being so rude about it. Jay

Damn, do you KNOW what POPULATION DENSITY is???? Not trying to be rude but you're part of our oil-dependency problem.

Guess how many people live in Salt Lake??? Do you KNOW the population density there? Look it up. You'll notice they've made light rail work. You seem to have no idea of the cost per mile over the long term of roads versus rail, btw. Roads aren't free to build, nor free to maintain. :-)

as for Federal monies, realistically, 1. it would take years for Albany to get construction started and 2. the longer the line and the louder the congressional contingent clamoring for new starts funding, the more likely Congress is to shift road dollars to transit.

You sound like a bureaucrat, not a visionary. The time now is for vision, not stale, failed solutions that lead to wars with oil-bearing countries.

BTW, roads don't directly "pay" for themselves, so why do you apply this "measure" to mass transit? The fuel tax? It's just as much an ENVIRONMENTAL tax and as such should be directed toward remedying the situation of transport inequity that devastates our environment. Tired, old, mistaken arguments don't cut it anymore. Like it or not, the times, they are a changin'

[Logan11]

I think the price of gas is key here. You can cite past examples, but none of them took place in an era of $3.00+ gas and the prospects of gas going at $4.00 or $5.00 and beyond is real. That could change people's behavior quickly. There will be a certain breaking point. Right now these arguments focus on the inconvenience of the commute being the main factor in convincing people to switch to mass transit. At some point this may take a back seat to the burden of gas costs and then people will change their habits. And the size of the metro area won't be the prime factor.....

[garmin239]

If gas keeps rising, you will have many people wanting to switch over to public transportation but that also depends on the availability of alternative fuels and affordable alternative cars.