Will there ever be a pro sports team in ABQ? (Albuquerque: centers, arena)

[Chaparral]

Originally Posted by Howest2008

Your metropolitan populations are all Bogus Albuquerque Is Not Lager Than Oklahoma City And jacksonville FL. And Neither Is Birmingham Alabama...Oklahoma City Has A 1,200,000 metropolitan Area And Birmingham Has A 1,100,000 Metro Area.

Howest2008: Yes, you are absolutely correct that the MSA's (Metropolitian Statistical Areas) of each of the cities you cite are indeed larger than Albuquerque's.

However, as observe has so kindly pointed out, the areas I listed on my previous post are DMA's (Designated Market Areas) as ranked by Nielsen Company. (Here is link to the latest rankings. ABQ's DMA also includes the Santa Fe area.) Since the VAST majority of the revenue generated by the NFL is generated by television, I felt this was a valid listing.

I appreciate your polite request to clarify the listing, and not just blindly refuting its validity without fulling understanding the differences between DMA's and MSA's. Oh, wait... that's exactly what you did. Nevermind.

Chap

[Andros 1337]

Originally Posted by Chaparral

Howest2008: Yes, you are absolutely correct that the MSA's (Metropolitian Statistical Areas) of each of the cities you cite are indeed larger than Albuquerque's.

However, as observe has so kindly pointed out, the areas I listed on my previous post are DMA's (Designated Market Areas) as ranked by Nielsen Company. (Here is link to the latest rankings. ABQ's DMA also includes the Santa Fe area.) Since the VAST majority of the revenue generated by the NFL is generated by television, I felt this was a valid listing.

I appreciate your polite request to clarify the listing, and not just blindly refuting its validity without fulling understanding the differences between DMA's and MSA's. Oh, wait... that's exactly what you did. Nevermind.

Chap

Sorry to bump an old thread, but everyone should know that Albuquerque is larger than Green Bay in terms of both city population and metropolitan area. Albuquerque has over 500,000 people, while Green Bay has only a little over 100,000. In terms of metrpolitan areas, the Albuquerque MSA has a little under 850,000 people, while the Green Bay MSA has a little over 300,000 people. As you see, Green Bay isn't even close in popluation, yet they have a big-league pro sports team. Therefore, I don't think poplulation alone is a valid argument for Albuquerque not have have a major pro sports team.

[karmathecat]

Green Bay is the exception rather than the rule. Because there happens to be one metropolitan area out there smaller than ABQ, there is no reason to think that's a valid enough reason to make another exception. There are plenty of larger metropolitan areas that do not have major league sports ( Okla City, Norfolk, Las Vegas, Austin, Providence ) some of which are nowhere near a major league team. There are also huge metropolitan areas that don't have a particular sport ( LA and Portland for football, for example ) and 24 other states that have no teams at all.

[Chaparral]

As KTC pointed out, Green Bay is truly an anomaly. (BTW Green Bay/Appleton DMA appx. size = 444,000.) The Packers are a hold over from the earliest days of the NFL, when smaller cities could join the NFL club. They are also the only publicly owned NFL franchise, which I'm sure has something to do with the team not pulling up stakes and heading to greener (bigger) pastures.

And judging from their legendary waiting list, the Packers draw an incredible amount of interest from outside their immediate geographical area. If you include just the greater Milwaukee area (DMA size: 905,000), the number of possible ticket buyers/viewers dwarfs that of ABQ. If he would care to join in, I'll let EnjoyEP elaborate further on any ABQ/Milwaukee area sports comparisons.

And just to update the latest 2008-2009 DMA rankings for the previously mentioned cities...

# 2 Los Angeles, CA
#22 Portland, OR
#33 Salt Lake City, UT
#37 San Antonio, TX & #49 Austin, TX
#40 Birmingham, AL
#42 Las Vegas, NV
#43 Norfolk, VA
#44 Albuquerque, NM
#45 Oklahoma City, OK
#47 Jacksonville, FL

Chap

[domino]

Green Bay would never qualify for a team in the modern age. Nearby Milwaukee would have the franchise with a population of around 2 million in the metro area. Never say never, but Albuquerque has a ways to go before getting any major league sports franchise.

[EnjoyEP]

Originally Posted by Andros 1337

Sorry to bump an old thread, but everyone should know that Albuquerque is larger than Green Bay in terms of both city population and metropolitan area. Albuquerque has over 500,000 people, while Green Bay has only a little over 100,000. In terms of metrpolitan areas, the Albuquerque MSA has a little under 850,000 people, while the Green Bay MSA has a little over 300,000 people. As you see, Green Bay isn't even close in popluation, yet they have a big-league pro sports team. Therefore, I don't think poplulation alone is a valid argument for Albuquerque not have have a major pro sports team.

Couldn't respectfully disagree with you more.

Green Bay - with the Green Bay Packers - is a complete aberration. Having lived in the Milwaukee, WI metro (1.5 million MSA) - just two hours south of GB - for a good chunk of my life, (and thus being a lifelong Packers fan), I am a pretty good source on this one.

Green Bay is such an aberration, and it would NEVER, EVER work if a team were just now being started in GB (or any other small little town like GB is); in fact, you could NEVER throw now say an NBA, MLB, or NHL team in GB...it would never work. Similarly, you couldn't just NOW found an NFL team in GB (nor would anyone attempt it).

GB has the "magic in the bottle" of being a very old franchise (when pro football franchises were commonly founded / existed in smaller towns because the economics of sports wasn't even remotely comparable to what it is now) that caught national prominence, love, and adoration via its history, location, unique ownership (being essentially owned by the stockholders eg: fans, rather than an owner), etc.

This ONLY could work because the Packers were founded nearly a century ago...it never could work if founded now because of sheer economic logistics.

Furthermore, this ONLY works because it really truly is the "Milwaukee Packers"...with enormous financial support from the 1.5-million MSA Milwaukee an easy 2-hour drive away (and the 500,000+ MSA Madison, WI similarly nearby). Also, don't forget the 11+ million Chicago MSA is only a 3-hour drive from many of the northern and eastern portions, and you'd be amazed how much support in terms of finances and fandom comes from that area as well.

The bottom line: The Packers are - by far - a one-in-a-billion type of rarity. One just can't take the tiny Green Bay populace figures and form any broad generalizations or conclusions off of it, it just doesn't work. (It would be like saying that since Paul Foster is a bajillionaire in El Paso, TX, El Paso must have a plethora of extremely high-paying jobs).

To be honest, even Triple A baseball (such as the Isotopes in ABQ) would likely not be extremely fiscally viable in a market like Green Bay (Green Bay's sister city - Appleton, WI - has a healthy single A baseball minor league team.

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Shortly after college, I worked in the front office of an NBA franchise, so I was able to get kind of a keen inside look at the finances of pro sports, and let me assure you, in today's competitive economic sports climate, towns with MSAs of 2-million or less (so even 1.5 million MSA Milwaukee which is still far larger than Albuquerque, or other towns such as Buffalo, Oklahoma City, New Orleans, etc.) teeter perilously close to not being viable big league sports markets. It is doable in a 1.5 - 2 million MSA if a niche is caught (for instance, currently the Brewers do extremely well in Milwaukee), however, it is a very tough road to hoe. The margin of error is very slim.

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Another consideration is that many "smaller market" major league sports teams often have a much larger market within a reasonable driving distance to help augment the influx of fan support eg: more dollars. Again, Milwaukee has the enormous 11+ million Chicago MSA nearby, and with that, a lot of dollars follow (you'd be amazed how many people spend $s in Milwaukee rather than Chicago - even if they are from that MSA - due to it being more affordable and less of a driving hassle). Similarly, many towns in the Northeast, Southeast, and Cali have this benefit as well.

Transversely, Albuquerque does not have that regional draw from a more major market. Denver and Phoenix are both 6 or 7 hours away, and both markets are saturated already with their own major league sports teams. El Paso would be the closest opportunity, however, there just aren't a significant enough amount of dollars in my estimation that would make a huge dent in help.

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Fiscally, the MOST IMPORTANT community attribute any sports franchise could garner (even more than sheer population size by far), is having a large, prosperous corporate base. Corporations are the ones that buy sponsorships, do naming rights, buy advertising, buy suites, buy season tickets, etc. In relation to fans themselves and their purchases, their dollars are DWARFED by corporations.

And quite simply, ABQ does not have anywhere close to the corporate base that would be needed. A weakness for sure currently in the ABQ economy is a lack of multiple large private corporations with fiscally deep, solid pockets. ABQ's economy is so dominated by government and private government contractors (eg: Sandia National Labs, Northrup G., etc.) who simply would not be a good source for major league sports support.

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At the end of the day though, while I can understand why good-hearted ABQ sports fans would love to have a major league team of their own to support and cheer for (being a major sports fan myself), I think many of them that clamor for a big league sports team aren't realistic as to the sheer economics, and frankly how far away ABQ is from being economically viable.

Just think of an arena or a stadium. Nearly all owners - rightly or wrongly - will not build an NBA/NHL-caliber arena or MLB/NFL-caliber stadium on their own dime. That means - you, the ABQ area resident - will have to fund the construction of such before anything is even considered, and those things don't come cheaply. Extremely likely, massive taxpayer dollars would have to be utilized for something to be built.

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And finally again, again at the end of the day while I can appreciate why good-hearted ABQ sports fans would love to have a major league team of their own to support and cheer for (being a major sports fan myself), I think many don't realize how good they have it cheering for a Triple A ballclub, an NBDL club, or UNM sports over a big league franchise in many respects.

Take the Isotopes for an example. They play in a world-class facility that rivals most MLB ballparks, just on a smaller scale, however...consider...

----Ticket prices are SO MUCH MORE AFFORDABLE to catch a 'Topes game v. an MLB game.

Check out Tope ticket prices ([b]laughably affordable / cheap for GREAT seats):

Albuquerque Isotopes: Tickets

Now check out some Major League pricing (for much farther back seating unless you are ready to burn the Visa card):

Diamondbacks - $50 for an infield box seat to a non-"premium" game:

Arizona Diamondbacks Single Game Tickets | dbacks.com: Tickets

Rockies- outfield club level seats for $47 to $60 per game!:

http://colorado.rockies.mlb.com/col/...ng_pricing.pdf

Brewers - $28 for a seat so far away that it doesn't come close to existing in Topes' Park:

Miller Park Seating and Pricing | brewers.com: Tickets


-----Don't forget PARKING. Topes games? Free! Close! MLB games? Bring $8 to $20+ extra dollars along!

-----Unless you shell out the bigger dollars for the MLB game ($50 - $125+), you aren't going to get a "marquee" seat. "Marquee" seats can be had at Topes Park for under $20! And due to the smaller venue of a minor league park, even non-marquee seats are close to the action relatively.



Also...dont' forget that as "small market" major league teams find out, often it is hard to be competitive in their smaller markets due to finances. So even if a town gets to that 1.5-million or 2-million MSA and eeks into the "big league game", often times they then lose their star players to free agency, etc., and it is much harder to consistently have a winning team that the "big boys' do. This isn't as much of a problem in the NFL, and things are improving for sure in the NBA and MLB, however, it is still a real issue.

Overall, I think ABQ is well off as it is for now. If someday it bloats to in excess in the MSA of +2 million (which I hope it wouldn't selfishly) with a healthy influx of new large private corporations, I would then think this would be much more feasible. But as it is, I think ABQ is in a great spot for sports, and for the NBA, MLB, NFL, etc., thank goodness for satellite packages (which one might be able to buy the entire season of a team for for the same price they would spend on tickets to one or two games all year)!

[bradly]

I think even the 1.4 Million Metro range could qualify us for a pro-sports team.
Deending on the states population too.. we are at 2.2 Million now, lets see how that goes.

[domino]

Originally Posted by bradly

I think even the 1.4 Million Metro range could qualify us for a pro-sports team.
Deending on the states population too.. we are at 2.2 Million now, lets see how that goes.

You need to consider also:

1. That other cities lacking sports franchises are growing as well.

2. Corporate headquarters are also required for successful franchises.

3. NM is nowhere near 2.2 million by any reputable estimates.

[bradly]

Originally Posted by domino

You need to consider also:

1. That other cities lacking sports franchises are growing as well.

2. Corporate headquarters are also required for successful franchises.

3. NM is nowhere near 2.2 million by any reputable estimates.

Ok, so I'm an Urban planner, that does this nonsense..Yea It does have 2.2 Million. I would share the documents with you but I dont feel like getting in trouble.

[domino]

Originally Posted by bradly

Ok, so I'm an Urban planner, that does this nonsense..Yea It does have 2.2 Million. I would share the documents with you but I dont feel like getting in trouble.

You're an urban planner, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Select last night, so I think that puts on the same level. I'll get back to you when the 2010 census is released. Have a good one.