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View Poll Results: What propulsion type should ABQ RIDE's next order be?
Diesel 0 0%
CNG 0 0%
Diesel-electric hybrid 4 80.00%
Other (specify) 1 20.00%
Voters: 5. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-16-2011, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
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Here is my second of four ABQ RIDE polls: What should be the propulsion type of ABQ RIDE's next bus order?

I personally think ABQ RIDE should stick to diesel-electric hybrid as they have been pretty reliable.
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Old 08-17-2011, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque
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CNG - electric hybrid

For fixed-route vehicles, cheap, domestic gas should replace imported diesel.
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Old 08-17-2011, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Abu Al-Qurq
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Given that just about all diesel available to the city of Albuquerque is domestically produced (and comes from Artesia, Gallup, Four Corners, or El Paso), the domestic vs. imported argument doesn't hold up all that well in this particular instance. That said, though, diesel is more likely to get and stay expensive because of its increasing cost of refining and robust demand versus shrinking supply. This is not as likely with natural gas, which has recently become far more economic to extract.

I'm a much bigger fan of Shanghai-style electric buses, which use batteries and electric "umbrellas" to charge while stopped. Unfortunately Albuquerque doesn't have a steady demand for bus service throughout the day the way Shanghai does.

So my vote goes to CNG hybrid, with solar panels added to the roof. I won't cast a poll vote because this series of polls was just too many at once.
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Old 08-17-2011, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidberg
... about all diesel available to ... Albuquerque ... comes from Artesia, Gallup, Four Corners,
That is irrelevant.

Petroleum products are completely international and any use anywhere
effects demand everywhere else. Any Artesia diesel consumed here is
not available to be used in, say, Phoenix or Seattle or somewhere.

I don't see any reason for any kind of fixed-route vehicles like UPS trucks, city
busses and even cross-country freight trucks to NOT be converted to CNG. There
is a huge surplus in the country and it is about half the cost of gasoline/diesel.

The oil market is like a huge pool. Suppliers put a hose in the pool and pump oil into it.
Consumers put another hose into the pool and pump oil out of it. That's why it is so
laughable when people talk about boycotting any particular producer - like
Exxon, or Hugo Chavez, et al. If you want to hurt them don't use so much.
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Old 08-17-2011, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Abu Al-Qurq
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
That is irrelevant.

Petroleum products are completely international and any use anywhere
effects demand everywhere else. Any Artesia diesel consumed here is
not available to be used in, say, Phoenix or Seattle or somewhere.
Not disagreeing with that, but natural gas is similarly fungible; LNG terminals are sprouting up on the coasts to mass import natural gas. Just because the US is awash in cheaper natural gas does not mean we are not importing more and more from even cheaper foreign sources.

Quote:
I don't see any reason for any kind of fixed-route vehicles like UPS trucks, city
busses and even cross-country freight trucks to NOT be converted to CNG.
By the time you factor in compressors, compressor maintenance, fueling infrastructure, vehicle conversions, and energy density, it's not a slamdunk the way it sounds. Diesel cycle also doesn't match well with CNG; if a gasoline engine would have trouble doing the job (as would be the case with all of the above), a CNG engine will be even worse when it comes to torque and horsepower. Buses have been built to adapt (plenty of room for a huge engine and tank on one of those), and buses usually don't have the same torque and power requirements.

Quote:
There
is a huge surplus in the country and it is about half the cost of gasoline/diesel.
You left out some words.

There is a huge surplus in the country now and it is about half the cost of gasoline/diesel now.
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Old 08-17-2011, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
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FYI, CNG/electric hybrid is not a standard option offered by the manufacturers; it would probably have to be specially ordered, which will cost Albuquerque lots of money.
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Old 08-18-2011, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andros 1337
FYI, CNG/electric hybrid is not a standard option offered
by the manufacturers; it would probably have to be
specially ordered, which will cost Albuquerque lots of money.
First, I predict that it WILL be soon. The economics cannot be ignored.

Second, there is no reason anyone has to pay extra. The city can simply say that they will wait for production to start on CNG/elec busses at the same old price. I the mean time, they will keep the old ones running.
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Old 08-18-2011, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
First, I predict that it WILL be soon. The economics cannot be ignored.

Second, there is no reason anyone has to pay extra. The city can simply say that they will wait for production to start on CNG/elec busses at the same old price. I the mean time, they will keep the old ones running.
If there were a huge market for it, it would have already been made. The largest market for CNG in the U.S. is in southern California, where transit authorities are prohibited from buying any type of diesel bus (including hybrids) due to emissions requirements (despite the EPA 2010 improvements of diesel engines). However, they have been doing fine without a CNG/electric hybrid option.

I don't think any manufacturer would be willing to develop a CNG/electric hybrid bus just for one transit authority (ABQ RIDE).
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Old 08-18-2011, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Abu Al-Qurq
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
First, I predict that it WILL be soon. The economics cannot be ignored.
Sure they can. If government didn't ignore economics it would spend far less than it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andros 1337 View Post
If there were a huge market for it, it would have already been made.
That's not true either. Plenty of products have huge markets but have not been brought to them as yet; apply that statement to Google or Netflix or tablet computers and you realize just how fallacious that argument would have sounded before they emerged into the marketplace.
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Old 08-18-2011, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque
5,549 posts, read 13,849,546 times
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Natural gas is a source of transportation fuel that has only very recently
become a huge surplus fuel due to improved drilling technology. There are
even plans afoot to develop export terminals to ship CNG to places that
do not have access to enough natural gas via pipeline.

It is so new that only now is an infrastructure being put in place
to supply fuel to long-haul trucks that convert to CNG propulsion.

Just because CNG/hybrid vehicles are not now being made, doesn't
mean that they are not going to be made or even under development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andros 1337
I don't think any manufacturer would be willing to develop a
CNG/electric hybrid bus just for one transit authority (ABQ RIDE).
I have no idea how you could possibly interpret my post as saying that ABQ
RIDE could possilbly think that holding back on such a purchase could
possibly force a manufacturer to start building some new type of vehicle.
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