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Old 05-14-2010, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Bernalillo, NM
1,182 posts, read 2,461,683 times
Reputation: 2330

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Quote:
Originally Posted by karmathecat View Post
For all of you applauding this, I hope you remember to pack your passport when you travel to or through AZ.
Just like you need to do in other countries, so why is this a big deal?

 
Old 05-14-2010, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
1,633 posts, read 3,730,142 times
Reputation: 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by karmathecat View Post
For all of you applauding this, I hope you remember to pack your passport when you travel to or through AZ.
As a legal resident alien I follow federal immigration law and carry my green card with me wherever I go, it is right next to my driving license.

If I do somehow forget my wallet and cross the border into Arizona and am subsequently stopped legally by local law enforcement who in turn inquire about my immigration status, then when I can no offer proof they detain me, it is no ones fault but my own and I will have plenty of time to think about that as I sit in a cell waiting for my wife, family member or friend to drive into AZ with my green card to free me.
 
Old 05-14-2010, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
1,633 posts, read 3,730,142 times
Reputation: 498
Actually the last part wouldn't happen, they would take me to a processing center where my biometrics would be taken and it would show up in the system that I was a legal resident and they would probably release me with fine (which would be fair and deserved).
 
Old 05-14-2010, 10:02 AM
 
1,938 posts, read 4,735,154 times
Reputation: 895
Just a couple quick thoughts....

AUTHORIZATION is one thing, PRACTICE is another.

Define "suspicious"...

Assuming AZ's law goes into effect as currently written (including the update),
what do you think is going to happen in practice? Does anyone think that all a
beat cop wants to do is to arrest illegals, spend a whole bunch of time processing
them and filling out related paperwork? After all, they don't run alcohol or drug
checks on every person they encounter, do they?

My guess is that in practice the AZ law will work like existing DWI / public intoxication
laws in every state; give 'em enough reason and they'll check you out, but in
most cases, nothing will happen. Remember, the "suspicion" requirement cuts
both ways.. "looked fine to me.." is probably as likely as "looked like a wet back
to me.."

Remember; Albuquerque's new policy is NOT NEW LAW; it is a policy / procedural
decision to actually do what the law has allowed for quite some time.

I think the AZ law will come down to checking immigration status basically when there
are also solid reasons to run a normal background check; when arresting or citing
someone for some other cause such as invalid registration, public disturbance, etc.

The application of ALL laws come down to procedures and guidelines and I'd be
willing to bet that a lot of official attention is being paid to that outside the
view of the media.

I agree that there are some serious holes in the AZ law that a racist cop could
drive a semi through, but very similar holes exist in many existing laws without
sending the Republic into chaos. That doesn't mean that we should ignore poorly
crafted law, but we should also tone down the hysteria a couple notches.

Nonetheless, I may very well be a test case as if I get stopped by a cop in AZ
and he asks about my residency / citizenship status, I'm likely to tell him that
unless he can cite clear and specific reasons why he believes that I am illegal,
I will refuse to provide that information. However, if I am arrested (highly unlikely)
for something, I would expect them to run a full background check.
 
Old 05-14-2010, 10:22 AM
 
Location: New Mexico
4,948 posts, read 7,311,101 times
Reputation: 8549
I applaud Gov. Richardson and our New Mexico Representatives for passing a resolution recognizing the benefits of undocumented workers in our communities. At least that's what the New York Times reported, although I haven't found reference to it locally. Anyone?

Richardson also supports bringing immigrants in legally from Mexico, giving them working visas, having them pay taxes, but they retain their Mexican citizenship.

The inscription on the Statue of Liberty still reads:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

It saddens me that this liberty is under attack in Arizona.

My family traces back to the Mayflower and other early "settlers". They came here totally "illegally" and just "settled" (i.e., stole) any land they wanted. The early history of America is using violence to get land, water and other resources. The Mexicans crossing over "illegally" are no different from my ancestors except they are much more considerate and docile about it, they just want to work. So people now coming here "legally" have a chip on their shoulders about "illegals". Ha!
 
Old 05-14-2010, 11:11 AM
 
Location: SWUS
5,419 posts, read 9,167,496 times
Reputation: 5850
I don't live in ABQ but I do live in NM. I think that a boycott would be pointless.. all this boycott crap is getting out of hand and people need to grow up a little.
 
Old 05-14-2010, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Østenfor sol og vestenfor måne
17,916 posts, read 24,206,030 times
Reputation: 39027
Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post

My family traces back to the Mayflower and other early "settlers". They came here totally "illegally" and just "settled" (i.e., stole) any land they wanted. The early history of America is using violence to get land, water and other resources. The Mexicans crossing over "illegally" are no different from my ancestors except they are much more considerate and docile about it, they just want to work. So people now coming here "legally" have a chip on their shoulders about "illegals". Ha!
Well, I'm just going to play devil's advocate here.

There was no law or system (or even a concept) of land ownership when the Pilgrims arrived so there was nothing technically illegal about their settlement. When Peter Minuit paid the Lene Lenape $24 for access to Manhattan Island, the Lenape believed they were getting away with something because they nor anyone else owned or even permanently resided on that land.

Furthermore, the violence that the early settlers engaged in with the native peoples over access to land and water was no different than what natives were already engaged in. In fact the northeast was in a state of unusual and violent warfare in the 17th century due to massive incursions of Iroquois into what was an Algonquian dominated area (illegal immigrants?) so if we are going to demonize early American settlers we should not ignore the violent and rapacious Iroquois in this discussion. Had the Europeans arrived one hundred years later, we might have been able to discuss the genocide of the Algonquin people by the Iroquois. As it stands, there are still several recognized Algonquian tribes extant in New England and the northeast. The fact that the European settlers eventually dominated can be accounted for due to technological prowess (guns and steel), not some inherent cultural predisposition to oppression.

That said, I agree with you that the illegal Mexican immigrants are considerate and docile about being here. Unlike the Native Americans, the U.S. isn't invading their villages and kidnapping their children.

I am not suggesting that the European settlers were innocent by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think that arguments for the rights of illegal immigrants that rely on false analogies don't hold up.

I also don't think that the argument that Mexicans are Native Americans and should be able to move freely on the continent holds up either. Do you think if Aztecs flooded the middle-Rio Grande valley in Pre-Columbian times that the Puebloans would be standing there with open arms crying, "Brothers!" ?? No, they would be peppering them with arrows.

Finally, let me state for the record that I am opposed to laws that use racist criteria to remedy social problems. I do believe in immigration reform that will help current illegal immigrants who are honestly employed to normalize either as guest workers or potential citizens, but I do not think that a borderless world (unrestricted immigration) is the answer.

Last edited by ABQConvict; 05-14-2010 at 11:33 AM..
 
Old 05-14-2010, 11:24 AM
 
1,938 posts, read 4,735,154 times
Reputation: 895
Considering the state of internal warfare within Mexico, I'm not so sure that most
of the Mexican portion of the immigrant wave really intend to go back. El Norte
has historically had 3 or 4 significant Mexican migration waves resulting from internal
strife and I can't see why the current situation would be much different.
 
Old 05-14-2010, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
8,734 posts, read 13,767,921 times
Reputation: 3807
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQConvict View Post
Well, I'm just going to play devil's advocate here.

There was no law or system (or even a concept) of land ownership when the Pilgrims arrived so there was nothing technically illegal about their settlement. When Peter Minuit paid the Lene Lenape $24 for access to Manhattan Island, the Lenape believed they were getting away with something because they nor anyone else owned or even permanently resided on that land.

Furthermore, the violence that the early settlers engaged in with the native peoples over access to land and water was no different than what natives were already engaged in. In fact the northeast was in a state of unusual and violent warfare due to massive incursions of Iroquois into what was an Algonquian dominated area so if we are going to demonize early American settlers we should not ignore the violent and rapacious Iroquois in this discussion. The fact that the European settlers eventually dominated can be accounted for due to technological prowess (guns and steel), not some inherent cultural predisposition to oppression.

That said, I agree with you that the illegal Mexican immigrants are considerate and docile about being here. Unlike the Native Americans, the U.S. isn't invading their villages and kidnapping their children.
Back even further.


YouTube - 2001 A Space Odyssey - Part 2/13
 
Old 05-14-2010, 11:26 AM
 
24 posts, read 86,492 times
Reputation: 31
Aries 63, if your ancestors came here before the United States of America existed (as some of mine did) then they broke no laws, because such laws did not exist. But after our country was founded and the Constitution adopted, there have been laws governing the entrance of non-citizens. My ancestors who came here in 1860 were subject to all of the laws of the US. Even during our periods of greatest immigration from 1890 to about 1910, immigrants were subject to immigration restrictions, including evaluations of their physical health. The quote you give from the Statue of Liberty reflects the important role that LEGAL immigrants have played in the settling of our country. It does not suppose the "liberty" to enter this or any other country whenever one wants. Let's also note that, even with practices like those just adopted in AZ, the United States is one of the most welcoming and tolerant of immigrants among the nations of the world. If you don't believe me, try applying for citizenship in Germany or Saudi Arabia. What, pray tell, is so objectionable about a sovereign nation wanting to control its own borders?
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