Quackwatch (polyps, research, natural)

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by coyoteskye

Can you give an example of such a question?

This thread is a pretty good example, specifically any of the content in quackwatch. I say this coming from a perspective where every word uttered out of my mouth at work is questioned to the nth degree. It can be pretty annoying, but that's science for ya. The MO is don't speak unless you have evidence to back up your rhetoric. Of course, this does not include anecdotes and conjecture. I have a colleague that speaks from conjecture quite a bit. I laugh my but off when attending meetings with him. He would have an easier time if fed to wolves. lol

Any way, lets take colonic irrigation. I had a very short conversation with this 'certified' practioner on youtube. He was posting vids, I was commenting in the comments section with questions. The notion of fecal matter sticking to the intestinal wall raised my brow. For one, I've held intestines in my hands (gloved of course lol), providing it's not diseased, it has a similar consistancy as the inside of your cheek. It's smooth, slippery, etc. Nothing is sticking to it. Now, OTOH, if you have crohn's disease or perhaps diverticulitis, there may be an argument. That argument will be made from a hospital bed. I'm somewhat familiar with gastro conditions because my brother has the worst form of crohn's. It's heinous. For the average joe/jane, fecal matter is not sticking to the itestinal wall. Frankly, shoving stuff up your arse on a continual basis might lead to problems where this becomes a reality. Tho, I'm not sure.

Any way, this guy ignored my quesitons. I was game for a discussion on the pathology, biochem, etc IRT his assertions. I got nothing and eventually gave up. OTOH, when I emailed Barret about his yammering IRT a veg lifestyle, he responded and we went back and forth. If my angle was a bit quacked, maybe he would have brushed me off, but my arguments were reasonable and based in reality. So, we had a discussion. Further, any scientist I have ever emailed has always responded. You can grab any paper off pubmed and if there is something that doesn't make sense to you, call or email the author (contact informaiton is always available in papers). Unless they're dead or no longer with their institute, you'll get an explanation.

eta: OTOH, I had a primary care physician that I dropped because he was an arse, imo. I have high cholesterol. He told me to stay away from animal products to the best of my ability. I relay that I am a vegetarian. He goes off on a nonsensical monologue contradicting his advice 15 mintues prior.

[20yrsinBranson]

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

Unfortunately, and all too often, the avoidance of answering direct and easy questions (in the form of research, discussion, etc) is ignored by alternative practitioners. This is not good for anybody; not patients or those that wish to heal. I don't know why, tho, I'm sure you have a better clue.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your statement, and if so, I apologize, but my experience with naturopathic and holistic practitioners is that they are more than willing to explain in painful detail the problem, the proposed treatment and how that treatment will correct the underlying problem that is resulting in the symptoms. There have been times when I wished they would not give me quite so much information LOL.

On the other hand, many years ago, when I was still foolishly going to medical doctors I do not recall any of them discussing anything with me. They would usually just hand me a prescription and be out the door. Of course, they didn't speak English very well, so that could have been part of the problem.

20yrsinBranson

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by 20yrsinBranson

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your statement, and if so, I apologize, but my experience with naturopathic and holistic practitioners is that they are more than willing to explain in painful detail the problem, the proposed treatment and how that treatment will correct the underlying problem that is resulting in the symptoms. There have been times when I wished they would not give me quite so much information LOL.

On the other hand, many years ago, when I was still foolishly going to medical doctors I do not recall any of them discussing anything with me. They would usually just hand me a prescription and be out the door. Of course, they didn't speak English very well, so that could have been part of the problem.

20yrsinBranson

I agree IRT physicians. My experiences have been hit and miss. The last guy I had was just an old fart set in his ways. Later experiences seemed to be more of a lack of time, than anything else.

Any way, what I'm meaning here is discussion of the pathology, biochemistry, etc of a particular treatment. Frankly, I wouldn't expect this from most physicians. At least not primary care doctors, but those strictly endorsing a method of treatment. For example, there are several ways to get from point A to point B. With lowering cholesterol, we can take scripts, or we can quit smoking, or modify our diets, or increase exercise, etc. These are all general talking points and we don't need to write a novel together to come to a reasonable treatment plan. OTOH, if s/he's going to harp on taking scripts, and offer no other alterantives, than I want an indepth discussion about what the drug does, it's metabolites, half life, it's side effects, drug-drug intereaction, etc.

If this person offers none of the above, I'll just leave. If I suspect something fishy, I'll contact the state medical board.

So, when I come across a person insisting upon a colon cleanse, and they tell me it's for the fecal matter trapped in my colon walls, then we need to get into it. This doesn't happen, tho. Why? To start, unless I have a condition like mentioned in my previous post, there isn't fecal matter stuck any where. Constipation is not synonymous with their assertions, to be clear. With this guy on youtube, it translated as smoke and mirrors.

And beyond that, I have a couple of friends that are certified acupuncturists. They both went through 4 years of schooling and did well. My dh is all about acupuncture, too. But, when my buddy wanted to insert the pins into...either my earlobe or tip of my pinky (honestly can't remember which) to combat the cold I had, he wasn't game for discussion either. Not a discussion I was interested in. I wanted to know exactly how it would work...effects on the immune system, maybe? Is it some how related to the nervous system? I don't know. Moving chi around isn't an acceptable response.

eta: I certainly didn't answer the question succinctly. I guess I was wondering if it's a language issue, or something else.

[coyoteskye]

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

So, when I come across a person insisting upon a colon cleanse, and they tell me it's for the fecal matter trapped in my colon walls, then we need to get into it. This doesn't happen, tho. Why? To start, unless I have a condition like mentioned in my previous post, there isn't fecal matter stuck any where. Constipation is not synonymous with their assertions, to be clear. With this guy on youtube, it translated as smoke and mirrors.

And beyond that, I have a couple of friends that are certified acupuncturists. They both went through 4 years of schooling and did well. My dh is all about acupuncture, too. But, when my buddy wanted to insert the pins into...either my earlobe or tip of my pinky (honestly can't remember which) to combat the cold I had, he wasn't game for discussion either. Not a discussion I was interested in. I wanted to know exactly how it would work...effects on the immune system, maybe? Is it some how related to the nervous system? I don't know. Moving chi around isn't an acceptable response.

Hmmm, i've experienced colonics.
This was quite a few years ago.
But one can see (sorry, this is kinda gross for those who have issues with their poop) fecal matter passing through the clear tube even if one has had a full and complete bowel movement that very morning.
And i'm fairly sure that chronic constipation, ie; not having good and complete bowel movements on a daily basis affects countless people in this country so it's hard to accept that the colon of say, the average 50 year old, is squeaky clean and without a build-up of fecal matter, excess mucous, etc..

Explaining acupuncture is a difficult thing if the person inquiring doesn't have even a little bit of understanding (and acceptance) of the more subtle "levels" of our body and being and of the world (and cosmos) that we exist with / within.
Here are a couple of pretty good pages explaining acupuncture to those who have been solely conditioned by the western / materially based / conventional, etc., paradigm of medicine and disease.
One of them (i thnk the first article) specifically addresses the difficulty that you had with the acupuncturist who was not willing or able to provide you with an understanding of what he was doing.

A Simple, Easy-to-Understand Explanation of Acupuncture

A Modern and Ancient Explanation of Acupuncture (http://www.darcynat.com/About%20Acupuncture.asp - broken link)

The book "Between Heaven and Earth" is an excellent way to get an overview of Chinese medicine for those that are unfamiliar.
Between Heaven and Earth: A Guide to Chinese Medicine

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by coyoteskye

Hmmm, i've experienced colonics.
This was quite a few years ago.
But one can see (sorry, this is kinda gross for those who have issues with their poop) fecal matter passing through the clear tube even if one has had a full and complete bowel movement that very morning.

I suspect we always have some degree of waste in our colons. Even if you went to the bathroom a few hours earlier. It's not as if processes ocurr in shifts. Point being, you can have stool there without the reflex. Any one that is an avid coffee drinker knows they can go and be done...15 minutes later, hey there! another 30 minutes! oops. lol

And i'm fairly sure that chronic constipation, ie; not having good and complete bowel movements on a daily basis affects countless people in this country so it's hard to accept that the colon of say, the average 50 year old, is squeaky clean and without a build-up of fecal matter, excess mucous, etc..

As I previously mentioned, constipation isn't synonymous with fecal matter sticking to an intestinal wall. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying. If you are, I'd like to have this explained clearly because I don't get it.

Explaining acupuncture is a difficult thing if the person inquiring doesn't have even a little bit of understanding (and acceptance) of the more subtle "levels" of our body and being and of the world (and cosmos) that we exist with / within.
Here are a couple of pretty good pages explaining acupuncture to those who have been solely conditioned by the western / materially based / conventional, etc., paradigm of medicine and disease.
One of them (i thnk the first article) specifically addresses the difficulty that you had with the acupuncturist who was not willing or able to provide you with an understanding of what he was doing.

A Simple, Easy-to-Understand Explanation of Acupuncture

Ok, so I'm reading this and have gotten this far "...Suddenly, we are presenting people with a concept of the invisible meridians that carry invisible qi energy."

Eh, I have to leave for my MILs house, but I can't say invisible anything is of much help. I'll try to read more later.

[coyoteskye]

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

I suspect we always have some degree of waste in our colons. Even if you went to the bathroom a few hours earlier. It's not as if processes ocurr in shifts. Point being, you can have stool there without the reflex. Any one that is an avid coffee drinker knows they can go and be done...15 minutes later, hey there! another 30 minutes! oops. lol


As I previously mentioned, constipation isn't synonymous with fecal matter sticking to an intestinal wall. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying. If you are, I'd like to have this explained clearly because I don't get it.



Ok, so I'm reading this and have gotten this far "...Suddenly, we are presenting people with a concept of the invisible meridians that carry invisible qi energy."

Eh, I have to leave for my MILs house, but I can't say invisible anything is of much help. I'll try to read more later.

So if a 50 year old man has been suffering from chronic constipation (let's say he has a full/complete bowel movement twice a week) for 10 years, where do you think that fecal matters goes?
Does it just disappear?
Is it absorbed into the body?
No ... it remains in the colon.
Is that not true?
I'm not an m.d. or any kind of health care professional but i think i'm correct when i say that a build up of fecal matter in the colon would be the result of years of less than adequate elimination.
Please correct me if i'm wrong.
I think peoples notion of what health is has been quite compromised and there's an acceptance (maybe it's more like an unconscious resignation) of conditions like chronic constipation and a lack of awareness as to how the health of the whole system is compromised due to bad food going into the system and less than adequate elimination.

Acupuncture:
Like i said in the previous post, if there is no understanding or acceptance (or at the very least a suspension of doubt) of the subtle body ... if the person does not accept the existence of that which cannot be seen and therefore proven via the physical senses ... then it's difficult to accept the basic premise(s) of acupuncture ... or any other healing modality that involves working on the level of energy.
The person just blanks out or shuts down, or gets defensive, (in other words, mind is closed) when the idea ... rather the reality ... of energy (Qi) is introduced.

[bluedevilz]

All fecal matter eventually passes, there is no collection point in the colon where it can collect.

Chronic constipation or not, the fecal matter eventually passes.

There is no reason, ever, to undergo a "high colonic", the colon will clear itself with or without ones help.

"Despite evidence to the contrary, the idea that colon cleansing is therapeutic by removing impurities, lives on. However, these claims largely fail to consider normal physiology"

Myths and Realities: Colon Cleansing: Healthful or just a load of @$%! | Clinical Correlations

And before someone posts the lovely pics that the sites that promote this hocus pocus show of the rubbery byproduct of an intestinal cleansing....

"The black, rubbery material passed on a colon cleanse is actually a byproduct from the supplements and fiber in the colon cleansing product as opposed to old fecal material, in which consumers are led to believe (5)."

[coyoteskye]

Originally Posted by bluedevilz

All fecal matter eventually passes, there is no collection point in the colon where it can collect.

Chronic constipation or not, the fecal matter eventually passes.

There is no reason, ever, to undergo a "high colonic", the colon will clear itself with or without ones help.

"Despite evidence to the contrary, the idea that colon cleansing is therapeutic by removing impurities, lives on. However, these claims largely fail to consider normal physiology"

Myths and Realities: Colon Cleansing: Healthful or just a load of @$%! | Clinical Correlations

And before someone posts the lovely pics that the sites that promote this hocus pocus show of the rubbery byproduct of an intestinal cleansing....

"The black, rubbery material passed on a colon cleanse is actually a byproduct from the supplements and fiber in the colon cleansing product as opposed to old fecal material, in which consumers are led to believe (5)."

Warning ... Gross post
I'm not interested in making a case for colonic irrigation.
Thankfully, that time in my life when i was having major issues with my bowels has past.
I do know though, from my own experience, that when i would experience a colonic, i watched fecal matter pass through the clear tube.
It was not supplements or colon cleansing products (wasn't ingesting either), etc., etc.
It was do-do.
I was experiencing chronic constipation and addressed it with colonic irrigation (or high colonic ... i don't even know the difference) and by administering my own enemas.
In both cases, it was quite obvious that what was being "flushed out" with water was fecal matter that was in my colon due to the fact that i was not eliminating properly.
(Sorry to the squeamish and/or those uncomfortable with their bowels and poop.)
Everyone (i hope) knows what it's like to experience a very good bowel movement.
And we know when that doesn't happen.
That most excellent bowel movement will, ideally, happen on a daily basis and sometimes more than once a day throughout a persons life span if the diet is good, the person has a healthy digestive system and therefore strong peristalsis ( radially symmetrical contraction of muscles which propagates in a wave down the muscular tube. In humans, peristalsis is found in the contraction of smooth muscles to propel contents through the digestive tract).
So again, if a 50 year old man has not had regular bowel movements, let's say for the last 5 years (and some people don't have regular and healthy bowel movements for many more years than that), what happens to that fecal matter?
And .... sorry, this is really gross (i don't mean to offend anyone) ... but when an autopsy is done on an 80 year old person, are you saying that their colon is all pink and that there is no matter (fecal or otherwise) in there?
Just Curious.

[harry chickpea]

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

This thread is a pretty good example, specifically any of the content in quackwatch. I say this coming from a perspective where every word uttered out of my mouth at work is questioned to the nth degree. It can be pretty annoying, but that's science for ya. The MO is don't speak unless you have evidence to back up your rhetoric. Of course, this does not include anecdotes and conjecture. I have a colleague that speaks from conjecture quite a bit. I laugh my but off when attending meetings with him. He would have an easier time if fed to wolves. lol

Any way, lets take colonic irrigation. I had a very short conversation with this 'certified' practioner on youtube. He was posting vids, I was commenting in the comments section with questions. The notion of fecal matter sticking to the intestinal wall raised my brow. For one, I've held intestines in my hands (gloved of course lol), providing it's not diseased, it has a similar consistancy as the inside of your cheek. It's smooth, slippery, etc. Nothing is sticking to it. Now, OTOH, if you have crohn's disease or perhaps diverticulitis, there may be an argument. That argument will be made from a hospital bed. I'm somewhat familiar with gastro conditions because my brother has the worst form of crohn's. It's heinous. For the average joe/jane, fecal matter is not sticking to the itestinal wall. Frankly, shoving stuff up your arse on a continual basis might lead to problems where this becomes a reality. Tho, I'm not sure.

Any way, this guy ignored my quesitons. I was game for a discussion on the pathology, biochem, etc IRT his assertions. I got nothing and eventually gave up. OTOH, when I emailed Barret about his yammering IRT a veg lifestyle, he responded and we went back and forth. If my angle was a bit quacked, maybe he would have brushed me off, but my arguments were reasonable and based in reality. So, we had a discussion. Further, any scientist I have ever emailed has always responded. You can grab any paper off pubmed and if there is something that doesn't make sense to you, call or email the author (contact informaiton is always available in papers). Unless they're dead or no longer with their institute, you'll get an explanation.

eta: OTOH, I had a primary care physician that I dropped because he was an arse, imo. I have high cholesterol. He told me to stay away from animal products to the best of my ability. I relay that I am a vegetarian. He goes off on a nonsensical monologue contradicting his advice 15 mintues prior.

I realize that if you are coming from a fixed position that you may hate apocryphal stories, but I think that you are wrong - and I base that on personal experience, not with a colonic, but with a colonoscopy.

A number of years ago, I had some severe health issues that just could not seem to get diagnosed by my regular doctor. Eventually, in the course of the scattergun approach to medicine, he referred me for an endoscopy and colonoscopy. I was dubious, was feeling absolutely rotten in the weeks prior to the procedure, and on the day before the procedure, my job duties prevented me from doing the standard cleanse.

The best I could manage, when I got home after midnight, was to take a huge dose of milk of magnesia. Needless to say, when I got to the hospital, they were not pleased. They did three enemas and then started the procedure. The last thing I remember was my throat being sprayed with lidocane to reduce the gag reflex on the endoscopy.

Some time later, I awoke from the anesthesia. IMMEDIATELY upon awakening, I felt fantastic - BETTER THAN I HAD IN YEARS. I left completely "cured" of the malaise that had been plaguing me, and totally puzzled "WTF had happened???" My energy didn't drop afterward, and if anything I began feeling even a bit better.

My wife asked the nurse how the procedure had gone, and was told AND I QUOTE: "The doctor had to blast away a lot of clinging fecal matter that was remaining after the enemas, but the procedure went well and there were no polyps." So much for sh-t not sticking.

When I returned for the followup, I asked what had happened that I had more energy and felt better. The doctor at first laughed and tried to pass it off as "The anesthetic probably gave you the first good sleep you have had in years." He did say that he used probiotics and that those might have had a mild effect. When I pressed further, he said he had no explanation and started to avoid eye contact, which I found curious.

I relate the above as a simple factual relating of my experience. I would be willing to swear to it on a stack of Bibles and the Declaration of Independence. My thought of colonics prior to that experience was "Yeah, right."

After reviewing and reviewing and reading and reading, I have come to a couple of probable conclusions. First, I may have been very low in my magnesium levels and the huge dose of MOM was partly absorbed by my body, even though I know that electrolytically it shouldn't have been. Second, I think the balance of bacteria and other organisms in my gut was out of balance and populated by some strain that was creating a posionous by-product, which was not being picked up in blood tests, just like food poisoning intoxicants aren't found in the blood of food poisoning victims.

I am at this point almost certain that the three enemas, change of pH from the MOM, and thorough irrigation during the colonoscopy removed the bulk of those organisms, and created a poor environment for those few that were left. The probiotics were enough to overpower the last of them.

I now think that I pushed the doctor beyond his limit in his beliefs on the stupidity of colonics. Would have a colonic had the same effect as my colonoscopy? Probably it would have been nowhere near as effective, since colonics are a lot gentler and less invasive. A few years later, I had a series of colonics when I was feeling bad and they only had a minor effect.

I do now know that the mix of bacteria and organisms in the gut is hugely important to good health. I'm not a "milk eating probiotics are going to cure everything" nut. I'm simply saying that we harbor millions and millions of critters that help us digest and can effect how we feel.

A number of years ago, I related my story (without my analysis) to Quackwatch. I shouldn't have bothered. The response I got was a total non-response. From that point forward, I've known that Quackwatch is NOT a website with any interest in furthering exploration in medicine and is NOT to be trusted.

Oh yeah, the appendix is designed to hold a reserve of gut bacteria for repopulating it after diarrhea. If there is any area in the lower intestine that could be classified as "sticky" this would be it, and I expect future research to "discover" that some chronic conditions of the gut are affected by the pool of bacteria held there.

I appreciate informed skepticism. I also appreciate open minds.

[kaykay]

Originally Posted by lilypad

One needs a knowledge base of health and medicine, before deciding whether a practitioner is a "quack". Otherwise, you are just left at the mercy of the site's "opinions". What might be deemed "quackery" on their list may be bona fide with me. There are practioners on the list I would support and agree with for the most part. But overall it appears the site is doing a good service to steer the public away from skewed or false information. Be aware, however, that medicine is becoming more and more "integrative", and some medical schools now have inculcated nonallopathic studies into their curriculum. So that what used to be deemed quackery may now be coming into the mainstreem, probably due to public demand for it.

I think this is a good assessment of the site, lilypad.
I think in some cases, it does present some good info, in others, it seems just biased.