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Old 04-03-2011, 06:49 PM
 
25,059 posts, read 23,196,156 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Apparently, 150+ history of American interventions, Banana Wars, brave men in Uniform charging fearlessly to secure Banana plantations for United Fruit, US trained death squads, hundreds of thousands of dead, US sponsored coups&guerrilla wars, US corporations controlling large chunk of CA land and resources, US troops killing thousands of civilians in Panama in 1989 so the US (aside small victorious "war") could remove the disobedient puppet they helped to install.... list goes on. Yet, USA, naturally, has nothing to do with anything. It's all about "personal responsibility" on the local levels. Remarkably, I have yet to hear US government and its citizenry taking personal responsibility for hundreds of thousands of dead in CA alone who would be alive and well (for some time at least) if not for the beacon of freedom shining from up the North and pushing its corporate & ideological interests down everybody' throat.

As for "corruption" that's a favorite American Neocolonial trick:
1) buy off local elites (we know American politicians are incorruptible and corruption is not legally institutionalized over here to make things simpler)
2) hook the entire country on the unmanageable amount of debt
3) bring in IMF, World bank (CIA, US troops if needed),
4) Remake a local economy & social policies to high NA Corporate standards. This usually involves: cuts social programs, thorough privatization of public sector (and especially land), slums, sweat shops, wage freezes, union busting and so on
5) Grab resources & cheap labor as needed, directly or using proxies.

Maybe CA is poor by industrial standards, they would be much better off if not for NA (neo)colonialism, but they still have something that "rich" NA lost long time ago (or never had).

Why everybody measures "poverty" and "wealth" using "first world" standards? Why not to start a thread like why North America is poor and thoroughly pathetic in everything that doesn't involve industrial production&consumption & military build up? NA citizenry is so thoroughly deprived of the (non material) things that make a human life joyous, it cannot at this point in time understand the depth of its depravity. Many actually think that we are the "crown" of social&human development. If it's true, that's quiet a scary, depressing thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wehotex View Post
check this out if you want proof on how the United States intervened in the affairs of these CA countries to protect its economic interests:

United Fruit Company - Chronology

Do you think that Fidel Castro was fighting an imaginary enemy? Batista and the "tenidos" were in cohoots with the evil monied American interests that kept the majority of the people in poor conditions.
When I vacationed in Costa Rica (southwestern corner), I was amazed at how many acres of land was used for palm tree plantations, owned by golden State Foods, the supplier for McDonalds. This where the highly unhealthy "palm oil" is porduced in great quantity. the natives are mesmerized and very content by their "pura vida" culture which emphasizes simplicity, lack of material wealth, unusual to us as brainwashed Americans. Near Quepos, there were many waterside developments made for Americans since natives cannot afford them. they were southern Calif prices on those homes, unreal!

MMany thanks to the poster who commented about the "Arbenz coup". Arbenz was a democratically elected President of Guat who implemented parcelling out the land to the poor. 2% of Guat's popul held the land. The US just couldn't have that since it smacked of gasp- communism! Arbenz was overthrown by CIA backed coups and replaced by puppets of US interests. The same kind of coup was implemented in Iran that led to the installation of the Shah. In that case, the "chickens came home to roost" as Malcolm X would say. USA is pretty disgusting in a lot of ways, even with Obama in charge.
For you 2, I'm not saying the US is innocent in these interventions, which it is not. What I'm saying is, to only blame the U.S., is to do a disservice because this isn't just some greedy American corporatist starting these. We've intervened in Latin America for the same reasons why we're intervening in Iraq, Afghanistan, and now Libya. For the same reason why we intervened in Vietnam with the Gulf of Tonkin, Cuban Bay of Pigs, Operation Northwoods, etc. etc. etc. The banksters control our government, and they want the U.S. to invade these countries, because we have the manpower and are expendable. The banksters include a group of American and European power players. You 2 are only scratching the surface, there's a whole catacomb full of secrets that's not well-known. So I'm partly reinforcing your posts, but I don't believe blaming only the U.S. is accurate.

In modern times I will say, I'm quite suspect that the CIA is involved in a lot of the Mexican drug trafficking that is involved in today. But thanks for the info. The globalist influence reached back further than I thought

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

Last edited by theunbrainwashed; 04-03-2011 at 07:47 PM..
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Old 04-04-2011, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
597 posts, read 1,157,632 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny come lately View Post
I have often been mystified by Central America: El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, and Nicaragua seem to be very poor, yet Panama and Costa Rica seem to be better off, financially.

Anyone knows the reason for this besides extreme politics?

CATHOLICISM.
Among the most developed countries of the world, none is predominantly Catholic.
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:25 PM
 
1,446 posts, read 4,058,065 times
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20YearsinBranson and Brazilian - I do not think that religion is all that important in determining levels of economic development. France, Belgium, half of the Netherlands, etc. are Catholic countries. You see, there are too many exceptions to rule that a religion hinders economic development. Yes, people do not really practice their Catholicsm in such countries anymore;they are also losing their "faith" in Latin America as well. When people only attend Church for bapitsms, marriages and funerals, how can one realistically say that Catholism is a major factor in their lives. Also, look at Spain. Yes, almost everyone there is nominally Catholic. However, less than 20% are really practicing. How are Catholic traditions
holding them back? (NOte: Before the recent downturn they were atcually one of the fastest growing economies in Europe, despite "Catholic" traditions)

Secondly, if conservative Catholism is a hinderance to economic development, wouldn't it make sense that ever more conservative Protestant Churches (like those in the US) would even hinder economic development even more? From what I understand the Catholic Church certainly is not the most conservative church there is out there. Anyway, even if culture is a factor in the lack of economic development in Central America, culture is NOT religion. For example, I was raised Catholic, but if i go to Europe, I am sure my culture is most similar to that of the UK or even the Germanic countires. My culture is NOT that of southern Europe for sure. Therefore, culture and religion can be completely different, especially when religion is not practiced.

Hence, I do not believe that religious traditions, especially when the majority do not really practic e their religion, hinder economic development. I do not think the Catholic Church is to blame for Central America's economic sluggishness.
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Old 04-04-2011, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,325,418 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAZILIAN View Post
CATHOLICISM.
Among the most developed countries of the world, none is predominantly Catholic.
Luxembourg, which has the highest per-capita GDP in the world, is 83% Roman Catholic. Number 4 Ireland is 87% catholic.. Austria, the tenth richest, is 73% catholic. West Germany, before reunification, was more than 50% catholic. Switzerland and Canada are 43% catholic. In Massachusetts, 2/3 of all people who identify themselves as practicing Christians are Roman Catholic.

Last edited by jtur88; 04-04-2011 at 04:27 PM..
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Old 04-04-2011, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Luxembourg, which has the highest per-capita GDP in the world, is 83% Roman Catholic. Number 4 Ireland is 87% catholic.. Austria, the tenth richest, is 73% catholic. West Germany, before reunification, was more than 50% catholic. Switzerland and Canada are 43% catholic. In Massachusetts, 2/3 of all people who identify themselves as practicing Christians are Roman Catholic.
True.
Brazilian is basing his post on the theories of early 20th century economist Max Weber, who claimed that the "Protestant ethic" was necessary for economic advancement. Even in his time, his theories didn't hold up - capitalism was invented in Northern Italy, and France, Belgium, Northern Italy, Austria, Catalonia, etc. were advanced industrial economies at the time. His theories had more to do with the spirit of the German Kulturkampf than reality. In today's world they hold up even less.

It is often said that Islam hinders a country's development, but that doesn't apply to Central America (or any nation in the Western Hemisphere).
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:05 PM
 
25,059 posts, read 23,196,156 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
True.
Brazilian is basing his post on the theories of early 20th century economist Max Weber, who claimed that the "Protestant ethic" was necessary for economic advancement. Even in his time, his theories didn't hold up - capitalism was invented in Northern Italy, and France, Belgium, Northern Italy, Austria, Catalonia, etc. were advanced industrial economies at the time. His theories had more to do with the spirit of the German Kulturkampf than reality. In today's world they hold up even less.

It is often said that Islam hinders a country's development, but that doesn't apply to Central America (or any nation in the Western Hemisphere).
I think what the posters are doing, is trying to establish a causal relationship between a country's economic development and how Catholic it is. I think it's more of a correlation than a cause and effect relationship.

It's simply the local corruption, and the IMF/World Bank, that's keeping Central America poor. Yes the US fascist (government collusion with corporatists, not Hitler fascism) interests first started the downward trend, but the U.S. has taken a backseat to this, and now the IMF/WB is keeping Central America poor by buying off their politicians, making them go broke in the process (create the crisis), and then offer them high interest loans they need but can't afford (offer the solution to the manufactured crisis). This is the same process used in Africa as well, and since these countries can't afford these high interest loans, the IMF/WB force these countries to give up their natural resources as collateral on the debt. Thereby, you have perpetual poverty, and a government that is very corrupt and inept.
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:52 PM
 
Location: TMI
416 posts, read 372,836 times
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There was recently a report that said that the U.S was the only wealthy country that was majority religious. I'm sure you have heard of that.

Many say Mexico is a dump because of NAFTA. They did ratify it, and I suppose could get out at anytime. If it was so bad for them - why not get out? I admit there seems to be a spike in illegal immigration since the early 90, though... but that could be anything.
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Indiana
22 posts, read 84,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The difference between the richer and poorer CA countries is no more striking than the same contrast in South America. Nations evolve their own economies over time, with a number of factors entering into the formula. Guatemala's per capita GDP is similar to that of Ecuador. Honduras' is similar to Bolivia's. Panama's is similar to Colombia's. Costa Rica's is similar to Uruguay's.
Umm...you may care to read more on the history of US intervention in Central America. I think that you'll find that US policies from the end of 19th century until the 1990's weakened the majority of governments in Central America and directly contributed to their current dysfunctional states.

Is ALL of the blame on the US?
No.
But a substantial portion needs to be.
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:45 PM
 
Location: California
99 posts, read 333,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAZILIAN View Post
CATHOLICISM.
Among the most developed countries of the world, none is predominantly Catholic.

Italy is predominantly Catholic, and is a member of the G7.


Quote:
From Wikipedia: The G7 (also known as the G-7) is the meeting of the finance ministers from a group of seven industrialized nations. It was formed in 1975 as the Group of Six: France, Germany, Italy, Japan, United Kingdom, and United States. The following year, Canada was invited to join.

As an economic and political group of seven developed countries with large economies (but not the seven largest overall), this powerful group of nations does not include any developing nations.
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Macao
15,951 posts, read 36,196,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAZILIAN View Post
CATHOLICISM.
Among the most developed countries of the world, none is predominantly Catholic.
That's an interesting statement.

I was raised Catholic, my father was Irish-Catholic, and my Mom was Protestant. The thinking within are drastically different.

In the Catholic Church mindset, I feel that lower-income, modesty, alotment in life, near sainthood in giving, better to give than to recieve, etc. come into play. Meaning, that side of me, strongly devalues material items, high income, etc.

Whereas from my Protestant mother, she views tele-evangelists and such. Creating wealth and making money and Republican values, and on and on. The more you make, the more you are blessed.

There really is a drastically differnet mindset when it comes to money, wealth, accumulating material goods, etc.
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