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Old 07-06-2011, 05:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Hence the reason why most those islands of the West Indies may well have done better to remain British and not allowing national pride to over rule smartness.
Don't think the French islands of Martinique or Guadeloppe are in any hurry. Getting French social security living in such a place one can only assume must be an ever to slight dissentive to work?

This is highly insulting. Have you ever lived under colonial rule? My family is from the Caribbean, and let me tell you something, it wasn't paradise on the beach when the British was ruling. Gaining their independent wasn't about nation pride, it was about not being oppressed anymore.

Half of Jamaica's problems stem from being under colonial rule.
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Old 07-06-2011, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Scotland
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yep freedom is a bit over rated, i know it's important, but you ask most people in the world what would they rather have, freedom, or a safe and comfortable living rather than living in fear of violence etc, i know what i would choose
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Old 07-06-2011, 05:40 PM
 
Location: .....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Was actually surprised when in South Africa a few years back to have been told a few times and almost always by black women that they preferred the time under the previous white government(apartheid)
Their issues appeared to all be around the escalating crime in the townships where they claimed to feel far less safe these days.

Must be somewhat of a disapointment though to see a colonial regeme replaced by a person of that nation whose main intent is to enrich himself his family and lastly in the African context tribe.
While I do not dispute the sentiments which came from those ladies, the voting patterns of the black electorate (specifically black women) in South Africa (post-1994) paint a pretty clear picture about which government they prefer. If the apartheid regime was working for the majority of black South Africans, then they would have voted accordingly in the first few democratic election cycles. That is quite obviously not the case, hence why you were surprised, and hence why the National Party crumbled. And while I am no advocate for the current government, I think that you need to research the statistics on the percentage of South Africans who had access to basic services in 1994, and compare it to the percentage of South Africans with access to basic services now. And if you have any doubts as to whom black South Africans prefer to vote for, feel free to read up on the election results from earlier this year.
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Old 07-06-2011, 05:41 PM
 
Location: On a Long Island in NY
7,682 posts, read 8,486,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Average Fruit View Post
This is highly insulting. Have you ever lived under colonial rule? My family is from the Caribbean, and let me tell you something, it wasn't paradise on the beach when the British was ruling. Gaining their independent wasn't about nation pride, it was about not being oppressed anymore.

Half of Jamaica's problems stem from being under colonial rule.
Are the people in Bermuda, the Cayman Islands, the Turks & Caicos, Anguilla, Montserrat, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St. Helena, etc being oppressed? I don't think so. I met someone from Bermuda who said that his British citizenship is his most treasured item - it allows him so many opportunities that he would not have if Bermuda were to become independent. As I outlined in a previous post, the benefits of being a British Overseas Territory are enormous and these places are largely self governing. The British don't really have much control over day to day matters unless they pertain to defense, foreign affairs, citizenship, and some other government things like policing/internal security, judicial court of appeals, and some civil service rules.
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Old 07-06-2011, 07:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by africanboy View Post
While I do not dispute the sentiments which came from those ladies, the voting patterns of the black electorate (specifically black women) in South Africa (post-1994) paint a pretty clear picture about which government they prefer. If the apartheid regime was working for the majority of black South Africans, then they would have voted accordingly in the first few democratic election cycles. That is quite obviously not the case, hence why you were surprised, and hence why the National Party crumbled. And while I am no advocate for the current government, I think that you need to research the statistics on the percentage of South Africans who had access to basic services in 1994, and compare it to the percentage of South Africans with access to basic services now. And if you have any doubts as to whom black South Africans prefer to vote for, feel free to read up on the election results from earlier this year.
I do wonder why after the initial sense if euphoria,completly understandable when majority electons were first held, have been replaced by a growing sense of apathy in RSA?

Obviously the Apartheid Regime was not in favour for the majority of South Africans,rather goes without saying.
But it should be noted that the Demorcratic Party holds power down in the Cape and whose policies would appear to be well rounded and inclusive of all races.

Indeed the current ANC government have lost a lot of popularity,which to be fair was bound to happen.
The peoples desires and needs could not be met in the time frame since majority rule so expectations deminish to a degree and apathy sets in.

Law and order remains a big issue although some figures show a decline in crimes although some question how true this is.

One could argue it was easier when the majority knew the enemy was the state(former Nationalist gvt) where as now this has to an extent been replaced by the desire for self enrichment.

I feel this goes from the lowest level who commit crime in an attempt to achieve their means to the rapidly increasing black wealthy influencial class who inhabit a world far removed from the daily struggles of the poor and are as such in many ways more akin to the whites,who still hold influence way above the percentage of the population they represent.(not surprisingly,considering the history, perhaps)
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Old 07-06-2011, 07:21 PM
 
3,132 posts, read 3,347,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Average Fruit View Post
This is highly insulting. Have you ever lived under colonial rule? My family is from the Caribbean, and let me tell you something, it wasn't paradise on the beach when the British was ruling. Gaining their independent wasn't about nation pride, it was about not being oppressed anymore.

Half of Jamaica's problems stem from being under colonial rule.
A question are Jamacians not oppressed now having one of the highest murder rates in the world?
The crime rate and lack of oppotunity for a big number of the population is what I if Jamaican would find even more insulting.

Surely colonialisation cannot be even half the problem for semi failed states around the world.

And if some blame can be placed on former colonisers,which i'm sure aspects can certainly be,at what point must the independent nation take responsibility for it's own failings?

Doesn't Jamaica have and have been ruled by a rather light skinned in colour elite?

How many Jamaicans have had to leave to seek better futures both before and after independence in the United Kingdom, USA or Canada? Further more how many have found the wat to be able to return to Jamaica once thet gained freedom from colonial oppression? Perhaps not so many. Saying that I do know Britons of Jamaican decent that went there and returned to the UK rather dissatisfied with what they found there.
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Old 07-06-2011, 07:26 PM
 
3,132 posts, read 3,347,610 times
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Originally Posted by WIHS2006 View Post
Are the people in Bermuda, the Cayman Islands, the Turks & Caicos, Anguilla, Montserrat, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, St. Helena, etc being oppressed? I don't think so. I met someone from Bermuda who said that his British citizenship is his most treasured item - it allows him so many opportunities that he would not have if Bermuda were to become independent. As I outlined in a previous post, the benefits of being a British Overseas Territory are enormous and these places are largely self governing. The British don't really have much control over day to day matters unless they pertain to defense, foreign affairs, citizenship, and some other government things like policing/internal security, judicial court of appeals, and some civil service rules.
Very much the case. These islands have only to ask for independence to obtain it.
No gunboat diplomacy these days keeping the empire in order. Without doubt many in Britain find the left over trappings of empire rather quaint and would prefer to give it up and save the lolly.
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Old 07-06-2011, 07:52 PM
 
Location: .....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
I do wonder why after the initial sense if euphoria,completly understandable when majority electons were first held, have been replaced by a growing sense of apathy in RSA?

That may very well be the case.

Obviously the Apartheid Regime was not in favour for the majority of South Africans,rather goes without saying. But it should be noted that the Demorcratic Party holds power down in the Cape and whose policies would appear to be well rounded and inclusive of all races.

Do you mean the Democratic Alliance? And yes, it is no secret that the political balance has once again begun to shift. But if you had analyzed the election results as I asked you to, you would see that the Democratic Alliance still struggles (though is improving) with its popularity amongst the black electorate. And I agree, their policies are well rounded and inclusive of all South Africans.
Other than that, a great post by you. I don't want to hijack the thread so this is over, you can inbox me if you have anything else to add. Thanks.
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Old 07-06-2011, 08:27 PM
 
Location: On a Long Island in NY
7,682 posts, read 8,486,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Very much the case. These islands have only to ask for independence to obtain it.
No gunboat diplomacy these days keeping the empire in order. Without doubt many in Britain find the left over trappings of empire rather quaint and would prefer to give it up and save the lolly.
Right on. Bellingham himself even said it; they are British for only as long as they wish to remain British. It's the choice of the people to remain under British "rule" and I don't expect that to change anytime soon given all the benefits of their present status. The latest poll in Bermuda shows that 73% of the population are opposed to independence with the under 35 crowd being most OPPOSED, and the over 55 crowd most in FAVOR ... the exact opposite of what one would expect.

BTW: British Overseas Territories are a cheap deal compared to our territories. Puerto Rico alone costs us $13,000,000,000 a year (yeah, that's 13 BILLION).
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:16 PM
 
3,806 posts, read 5,200,549 times
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Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Falkland Islands are in no hurry to be the Malvinnas and learn Spanish either.
But they are of mostly British ancestry. Outside of the US no majority British ancestry colony ever got that strident in demands that they be released from the empire.

I think the thing to keep in mind with possible neo-colonies would be that places becoming colonies by vote would probably be treated a lot differently than the colonies were in the Age of Imperialism.
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