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View Poll Results: Is raced discussed in The Americas 24/7
Yes, Latin Americas think about race all the time 1 33.33%
No, this board has been invaded by race extremists. 2 66.67%
Voters: 3. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-25-2013, 05:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalaMan View Post
Oh yeah, the colonization of Brazil was VERY different of the the colonization of the United States.

The United States was mostly a "colony of settlement", like the anthropologists say. The British colonizers came to the USA with their families, their wives, their kids.

Brazil was mostly a "colony of exploitation", like the anthropologists say. The Portuguese guys who came to Brazil were mostly young "adventurers", not married, no wife. The number of women that came from Portugal to Brazil during the colonial era was very small.

Since the very beginning, even before the arrival of the first African slaves, the Portuguese male colonizers had taken indigenous women as wives.

What can you expect? The indigenous peoples of Brazil didn't used clothes before the arrival of the Europeans. The combination of young male single Portuguese colonizers plus naked indigenous girls, could only led to... miscigenation!!
The colonization of the USA was not all that different from Brazil, actually believe it or not.

 
Old 08-25-2013, 05:32 PM
 
578 posts, read 757,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalaMan View Post
I knew that many people would be surprised. Even many Brazilians would be surprised by that.

Not me. I always knew that.

There is MYTH (yes, this is a MYTH) that the indigenous peoples of Brazil were just "exterminated", and have "disapeared". That's NOT TRUE!

Yes, there was genocide in the colonial era. But some indigenous tribes were allies of the Portuguese, and actually helped the Portuguese to exterminate other tribes.

Besides genocide, there was also a lot os ASSIMILATION, of indigenous peoples. The jesuits had a role in this assimilation, with their "aldeamentos" and "missoes".

The fact that there are less than 1 million indigenous people today in Brazil who live in traditional comunities and keep the original indigenous language doesn't reflect the real influence of the indigenous element in the formation of the Brazilian people.

Brazil is much more Native American than many people think. The overwhelming majority of the Brazilian "whites" have at least 10% of indigenous DNA. And a very large portion of the general population have at least 35% or more of indigenous DNA.
What exactly do you mean by "the general population"? Just curious
 
Old 08-28-2013, 09:16 PM
 
578 posts, read 757,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diet1 View Post
Your fail to understand miserably; the fact that "whites" are different culturally, racially, and ethnologically. That is three of many reasons why they tried to annihilate one another several times over; over the years. There is no such thing as pure "white" specially in the Mediterranean region (due to racial mixing). That is one major reason why the "whites" in the Mediterranean region have always been more laid back towards other peoples. Too bad the English"whites" were so isolated geographically as well as culturally, because that rendered them overly provincial. They seemed afraid to accept others.

It is true that people who do not feel good about themselves have trouble feeling good about anyone else.
In addition;
"The superiority complex is one of the ways which a person with an inferiority complex may use as a method of escape from her or his difficulties. She or he assumes that she or he is superior when she or he is not, and this false success compensates her or him for the state of inferiority which she or he cannot bear.
The normal person does not have a superiority complex, she or he does not even have a sense of superiority. She or he has the striving to be superior in the sense that we all have ambition to be successful; but so long as this striving is expressed in work it does not lead to false valuations, which are at the root of mental disease."[4
]

4^ Ansbacher, Heinz L., and Ansbacher, Rowena R., ed. The Individual Psychology of Alfred Adler - A Systematic Presentation in Selections from his Writings. New York: Basic Books Inc., 1956 (page 260)
You fail to understand miserably that you haven't said anything of value that challenges the point I was trying to make.

I never even spoke about differences or similarities of whites or between them.

And all European groups and European colonial powers became racist and subjagated Africans and Native American and Asian peoples. Spanish had a caste system and racial societal hierarchy.

In fact the British learned much of their methods of colonization and societal structure and categorizations from the Spanish, who in turn had gotten such an idea from the Arab slave traders whose slave trading and colonization of Africans and blacks in Africa abroad was even more brutal and began earlier and even lasted longer.

Spanish whites/Portuguese whites/French whites and English whites were both very racist, and similar in both methods of interactions and dealings with people with some slightly notable differences. I dong believe one was more better or worse than the other. Both had differences but were equally racist.


And who is that post about in regards inferiority and superiority complexes referring to??
 
Old 08-28-2013, 10:29 PM
 
578 posts, read 757,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Yes, but in countries where the mixed race people became a majority, it was not due to rape. Usually, the children of rape remain a minority within a society and when mixed race is the evidence of this, the mixed race population also remains a minority. They gain a majority when there is widespread marital unions where both parties agree to unite and a widespread relaxed attitude towards racial mixing.

The overall attitude of the Spanish was quite relaxed regarding racial mixing, unlike the British/Dutch/French/Germans who tended to look down on this practice.

You will also notice that countries that were colonized by people that overwhelmingly looked down on racial mixing, eventually developed racial segregation/apartheid policies. This is something that is practically unknown in the Latin American case.

In the USA the mixed race population has historically been a very small minority. Its only in recent years that this population has begun to skyrocket, mostly because general attitudes towards racial mixing have been relaxing. Under such circumstances, its only natural that the mixed race population will not just skyrocket, but also become a very large minority and eventually a majority of the USA population.

Rape doesn't causes nor explains mixed race majority populations.
Well make sure you read the entire post I wrote and not just this one part. The point that was trying to be illustrated is that mixing occurred just as much in the USA as did in the so called Latin American and Caribbean nations or essentially those nations south of the USA border etc.

Also I never said mixing was all inherently due to rape. I said that lots of mixing occurred but that it was not always consensual, since based on your comments, you made it seem like in certain areas or nations had less or little or no mixing and thus stemming from rape or mutual separation etc. Plus you made it seem as if there was always mutual agreement in regards to relationships in Latin American societies or as if there was never any stigma surround interracial mixing.

For example in Latin America, as in most societies, mixed offspring were often considered illegitimate, and viewed as half breeds or half castes.

Also many European males often made sure to maintain their pure European or white bloodlines and superiority by passing on their surnames to their white children and for maintaining distinction and their unique name.

Also just because people in colonial society were mixed did not mean that their white fathers or white mothers would acknowledge them.

Also YOU said this:

"They gain a majority when there is widespread marital unions where both parties agree to unite and a widespread relaxed attitude towards racial mixing."

This can be true however, the main caveat to that is that from the earliest of colonial times not all unions were agreed upon and the resulting offspring were not always acknowledged or raised by their white offspring. There is a tendency for European fathers to not take responsibility for their mixed offspring or as a result of only on a conditional basis and an added stigma of being considered illegitimate.

Next you say:*

"The overall attitude of the Spanish was quite relaxed regarding racial mixing, unlike the British/Dutch/French/Germans who tended to look down on this practice."

That is NOT true. Also the French were very much similar in methods and tradition to the Spanish. French are Roman Catholics just like the Spanish and have very similar methods and modes of categorization.

Anyways, the British had the same method as the Spanish and vice versa. They mixed with Native Americans and Africans.

Also keep in mind that the British and even the USA post independence would continue to pick up racial gradations and categorizations and terms from the Spanish and French colonial societies and adapted it to theirs. Also in addition it was the Arabs that started a worldwide mass slave trade of blacks and African peoples and thus groups like the Spanish and Portuguese adapted the Arabs methods to their colonizations and British followed suit getting new ideas from the Spanish, French, and Portuguese. Next the European powers worked in collusion with each other influencing each others ideas. It was the Arabs who were the biggest culprits in history if one looks at the wider picture although of course Africans gave other Africans to traders as well sadly enough.

Anyways....

Next YOU say:

"You will also notice that countries that were colonized by people that overwhelmingly looked down on racial mixing, eventually developed racial segregation/apartheid policies. This is something that is practically unknown in the Latin American case."

Really? Then*why did Cuba have widespread rampant institutional racism, segregation, white supremacy virtually similar to that of Jim Crow throughout all of it's history and wasn't dismantled or addressed until the 1960s in the implementation and further aftermath of Fidel Castro's Cuban Revolution?

Why did Panama until the mid 20th century have a segregated walled city to protect and guard and keep white Panamanians safe in the intramuros of San Felipe while black Panamanians were kept out and were relegated to live in the extramuros in the arrabal Santa Ana, and they were called arrabaleńos (slum dwellers).

That's not true what you said because South Africa had apartheid yet they NEVER had any one drop rule. In fact they always acknowledged a seperate mixed race and Coloured category which was it's own seperate group.

Rafael Trujillo was a bigoted and hypocritical ingrate as well in regards to his policies of trying to whiten the country. He was a Latin American/Caribbean version of Hitler.

Also why did many ppl go to European nations like the United Kingdom, Netherlands, France and even Germany to seek refuge and peace from Jim Crow USA if those nations looked down on racial mixing or their relations with "other people"?

In the USA the mixed race population has historically been a very small minority.*

And no, the mixed race population of the USA has never been small. The mixed race population of the USA has always been very large and even dominant or close to being majority. The problem was the legal implementation of the racist one drop rule from 1931 to 1967. Remember that mixed race and interracial unions were widely recognized until 1930. It took 1967 to restore mixed consciousness of Americana to return. Mixed race people have always been in the USA. Its just that now there is a re awakening and consciousness. Many historical figures that are today viewed as part of black history were not viewed as part of black history during colonial times or olden days because one drop rule didn't exist during slavery or colonial times or during the antebellum era. Also slavery was NOT racial. It was matrilineal. It was based on partus sequitur venentrum. There was lots of mixing between whites, Natives, blacks and even other groups that were brought to the shores of the Americas.

Again I never said that rape causes mixed race majority populations or that that was the root of mixed race unions and offsprings. All I said was that mixed race unions have occurred from rape or coercion, or such unions have been viewed as flawed or illegitimate. Also Latin America was not exactly a mixed race paradise at least during the beginning or during the colonial period.*

Basically I was just pointing out the flaws in your claims with other equally valid flaws or the caveats to them.
 
Old 08-28-2013, 10:31 PM
 
578 posts, read 757,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Yes, but in countries where the mixed race people became a majority, it was not due to rape. Usually, the children of rape remain a minority within a society and when mixed race is the evidence of this, the mixed race population also remains a minority. They gain a majority when there is widespread marital unions where both parties agree to unite and a widespread relaxed attitude towards racial mixing.

The overall attitude of the Spanish was quite relaxed regarding racial mixing, unlike the British/Dutch/French/Germans who tended to look down on this practice.

You will also notice that countries that were colonized by people that overwhelmingly looked down on racial mixing, eventually developed racial segregation/apartheid policies. This is something that is practically unknown in the Latin American case.

In the USA the mixed race population has historically been a very small minority. Its only in recent years that this population has begun to skyrocket, mostly because general attitudes towards racial mixing have been relaxing. Under such circumstances, its only natural that the mixed race population will not just skyrocket, but also become a very large minority and eventually a majority of the USA population.

Rape doesn't causes nor explains mixed race majority populations.
The British, French, Dutch, and Germans mixed a lot. The people of British, French, and Dutch colonies mixed
 
Old 08-28-2013, 11:02 PM
 
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Thanks Obscure


Half breeds aka mulattos were denied social inclusion by colonialists in Spanish colonies. This is fact. It's well documented in paintings. Mulatta women were seen nothing more than sexual liasons by European men. It were the white women who were seen as worthy of first class inclusion.

Look at these paintings.













The women in these paintings were intended to appear sexually provocative. This wasn't an expectation of colonial women at the time.

Last edited by knowledgeiskey; 08-28-2013 at 11:22 PM..
 
Old 09-29-2013, 02:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Yes, but in countries where the mixed race people became a majority, it was not due to rape. Usually, the children of rape remain a minority within a society and when mixed race is the evidence of this, the mixed race population also remains a minority. They gain a majority when there is widespread marital unions where both parties agree to unite and a widespread relaxed attitude towards racial mixing.

The overall attitude of the Spanish was quite relaxed regarding racial mixing, unlike the British/Dutch/French/Germans who tended to look down on this practice.

You will also notice that countries that were colonized by people that overwhelmingly looked down on racial mixing, eventually developed racial segregation/apartheid policies. This is something that is practically unknown in the Latin American case.

In the USA the mixed race population has historically been a very small minority. Its only in recent years that this population has begun to skyrocket, mostly because general attitudes towards racial mixing have been relaxing. Under such circumstances, its only natural that the mixed race population will not just skyrocket, but also become a very large minority and eventually a majority of the USA population.

Rape doesn't causes nor explains mixed race majority populations.
Hmm, you make a lot of truthful and great valid points, however in some aspects, its almost as if you made it seem as if everything in Latin America beginning from the very earliest of colonial times was all fine and dandy and that Europeans came over and mixed with everybody in a kumbaya fashion when that wasn't the case, at least from the very beginning. Latin America has good and bad and brutality in it's history just as much as any other places or regions of the world.
 
Old 09-30-2013, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,580 posts, read 4,664,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObscureOpulence View Post
The funny thing is that pure whites have ALWAYS existed in Latin America. Just because Europeans mixed with Native Americans and Africans doesn't mean diddly squat or **** lol. In fact who says that the European men were monogamous? Many Europeans had children outside of their race that would be considered illegitimate. They had mixed race kids and many of them would then also have families with their European female partners and maintain their pure European bloodlines legacy.

This also happened in the colonial 13 original colonies. So don't get it twisted.

In virtually every Latin American country there exists a series of several families part of their nations respective elite groups that trace their bloodlines and it almost always has remained relatively purely European. Panama's white elite is known as "rabiblancos".

You even see this in Martinique and Guadeloupe. In Martinique they are called béké(s).

Think about it a little better, and you will realize that's IMPOSSIBLE.

Every single "white" in any Latin-American country has (as every human being has) 16 great-great-grandparents.

16.

In a country where the majority of the population is mixed-race, it's almost impossible that at least ONE of those 16 great-great-grandparents wasn't mixed race.

If you are Latin-American, it's almost sure that at least one of your 16 great-great-grandparents was mixed race (even if your great-great-grandparent was just one quarter black or one quarter indigenous).

And if one of your 16 great-great-grandparents was mixed race, then you are not "pure white".

"Pure white" in Latin America is extremely rare.
 
Old 10-05-2013, 01:15 AM
 
308 posts, read 415,838 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalaMan View Post
Think about it a little better, and you will realize that's IMPOSSIBLE.

Every single "white" in any Latin-American country has (as every human being has) 16 great-great-grandparents.

16.

In a country where the majority of the population is mixed-race, it's almost impossible that at least ONE of those 16 great-great-grandparents wasn't mixed race.

If you are Latin-American, it's almost sure that at least one of your 16 great-great-grandparents was mixed race (even if your great-great-grandparent was just one quarter black or one quarter indigenous).

And if one of your 16 great-great-grandparents was mixed race, then you are not "pure white".

"Pure white" in Latin America is extremely rare.
Hmm. You make some valid points. But it seems likely that there were pure white Europeans that existed from since the beginning of the colonial period. In addition there was also even incest and interbreeding within and among white families. So for example a white European male may have raped a Native American or raped a black African woman, while at the same time raping or even consensually or by arrangement have children with a white European women so that way they can maintain the existence of pure white Europeans in the colonies. Heck some white women may have even had relations with and even gotten impregnated by more than one European men in the colonies.

So there were a variety of situations and contexts through which how people were born or which lineages they come from.

I agree with you that it was overwhelmingly mixed race and that "pure" whites are rare, but I think the other aspects should be analyzed as well. It's also notable that some also found ways or had easy accessible ways when the chance presented itself to also have and maintain WHITE families, and at the same time have mixed race families. This was common throughout many colonies.

And relations were not always consensual. There were rapes or relations that occurred even through familial arrangements and/or agreements.

Nonetheless, the outcome, most are beautiful mixes of the Europeans, Africans, and Native Americans to which has created beautiful cultures.
 
Old 10-07-2013, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,580 posts, read 4,664,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObscureOpulence View Post
What exactly do you mean by "the general population"? Just curious
The total population, regardless of any racial classification. The whole population.
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