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View Poll Results: Is raced discussed in The Americas 24/7
Yes, Latin Americas think about race all the time 1 33.33%
No, this board has been invaded by race extremists. 2 66.67%
Voters: 3. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-20-2014, 01:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dony1982 View Post
C'est ne pas vrai
D'abord, Latin American cultures are mixed partly the conquerors were mostly men and they mixed with the rest, also the catholic church mixed their beliefs with the indigenous cultures, or in oher words a religious and cultural miscegenation.
Additionally, Racism is openly discussed in Latin America if u have a basic level in Spanish you can try to ride the books of Garcia Linera or what about an indigenous president in Bolivia? Coming from the lowest income level? sorry but he isn't a rich guy like Obama, or Chili , Argentina and Brazil with woman being their head of State?



Additionally, of course anybody living in a developed country can have a better standard of living than a developing one that is just common sense , about the French bashing, Rachida Dati? , Sarkozy have Hungarian roots, is different a concept of Citoyenneté français is based on abstract conepts , at least Zidane, Farah, Ribery or DIAM are not supposed to be terrorists, or the large nummber of muslims in French cinema, music and debates.


In the end , you have to differenciate a concept of a Multicultural country like Bolivia or Peru with countries with high levels of Immigration like USA or Canada.

Obama was definitely not a rich guy. At best he can be described as coming from a lower middle class background, and with a some what dysfunctional family, given his abandonment by his father, and the fact that for much of his youth he had to be raised by his grand parents, who were often at a loss about how to raise a young black boy.

My references are about the treatment of black and darker mulattos in Latin America. There is more space for the Indigenous peoples to protest out of a realization that those lands were original theirs. People who are very visibly of at least part Africa descent aren't allowed those spaces. Those who do protest are accused of importing US style racism.

Malaman, a Brazilian, made those accusations when I referenced a film called Raca where three black Brazilians are referenced. He seems to think that he knows more about what these more African liking people in Brazil endure, even though I suspect he isn't one of these. Like many others, he seems highly offended at any discussion of the fact that, despite claims that racism is minimal, Brazilians of predominant African ancestry are clustered at the bottom, even more than they are in the USA, with its history of extreme racism, which it has worked hard to reduce. So he negates the right of these black and dark mulatto Brazilians to speak out and mobilize.

France has a certain attitude towards the assimilation. It isn't working. France is another example of a country where ethnic minorities aren't given space to discuss their own identities, without facing accusations of refusing to assimilate.

France is as much a country of immigration as are the UK, USA, Canada, and Australia. Those nations have however learnt lessons from the past and at least attempt to allow immigrants, and ethnic minorities, to achieve upward mobility and economic integration, while allowing them some room to define their identities. Not to say that there aren't problems and substantial pockets of poverty don't exist, especially in the USA. But then France is notorious for the fact that even the third generation of immigrant origin people (those whose GRANDPARENTS were the immigrants) don't seem to be doing too well on the whole.

 
Old 01-20-2014, 02:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I think it's a good thing that Brazil is so diverse with many racially-mixed people. I know there is still prejudice based on skin colour there, but I'm wondering, assuming the Spaniards and Portuguese were as racist as the early American colonists, why did America pursue a policy of segregation, while in Latin America intermarriage between natives, Europeans and later black slaves was common and even promoted? Was it to 'breed out' the Indians, as what the government tried to do in Australia with our Aborigines? The settlers in the US, in contrast, just wanted to herd off the Indians to small reservations or outright kill them. Is 'racial purity' more of an Anglo-Saxon rather than a Hispanic thing?

Why was racial segregation in the US South so extreme during the Jim Crow era? Like blacks not allowed to marry whites, many black men hanged for being with white women. Other nations with a colonial past, presumably also pretty racist, never took things that far.

I think its important to note that the Latin American societies had over 100-150 more years of interaction between groups than the British American colonies (1492 vs. 1607 starting points). I would wager that the United States would look much more like Brazil or Colombia in another 100 years (even without further immigration).
 
Old 01-20-2014, 11:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Obama was definitely not a rich guy. At best he can be described as coming from a lower middle class background, and with a some what dysfunctional family, given his abandonment by his father, and the fact that for much of his youth he had to be raised by his grand parents, who were often at a loss about how to raise a young black boy.

My references are about the treatment of black and darker mulattos in Latin America. There is more space for the Indigenous peoples to protest out of a realization that those lands were original theirs. People who are very visibly of at least part Africa descent aren't allowed those spaces. Those who do protest are accused of importing US style racism.

Malaman, a Brazilian, made those accusations when I referenced a film called Raca where three black Brazilians are referenced. He seems to think that he knows more about what these more African liking people in Brazil endure, even though I suspect he isn't one of these. Like many others, he seems highly offended at any discussion of the fact that, despite claims that racism is minimal, Brazilians of predominant African ancestry are clustered at the bottom, even more than they are in the USA, with its history of extreme racism, which it has worked hard to reduce. So he negates the right of these black and dark mulatto Brazilians to speak out and mobilize.

France has a certain attitude towards the assimilation. It isn't working. France is another example of a country where ethnic minorities aren't given space to discuss their own identities, without facing accusations of refusing to assimilate.

France is as much a country of immigration as are the UK, USA, Canada, and Australia. Those nations have however learnt lessons from the past and at least attempt to allow immigrants, and ethnic minorities, to achieve upward mobility and economic integration, while allowing them some room to define their identities. Not to say that there aren't problems and substantial pockets of poverty don't exist, especially in the USA. But then France is notorious for the fact that even the third generation of immigrant origin people (those whose GRANDPARENTS were the immigrants) don't seem to be doing too well on the whole.
I think you exaggerate a bit here. This is true for immigrants of Colour (Africans, Antillais, Arabs and Asians) but isn't necessarily true for immigrants from other European countries, and the exact same thing could be said for immigrants of colour in the United States or the UK. Black immigrants aren't faring all that well in the US and especially not in the UK, and in the US there have been issues with assimilating large numbers of Hispanics who have been here for generations, including Puerto Ricans who aren't even foreigners. You point out that Obama was born to foreign parents, but so was Nicolas Sarkozy. It's not an immigrants vs. natives issue so much as it is a White vs. people of Colour issue since the Antillais are treated like immigrants in France as well, much like how West Indians were treated as foreigners in the UK when we first arrived in the 50's. This is in no way, shape or form a uniquely or even predominantly French phenomenon.
 
Old 01-20-2014, 12:22 PM
 
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It started with the mixing of Native American women and Spanish conquistadores, and continued with mestizos, blacks, mulattos etc. A racially stratified system was started in which Spanish-born people were at the "top", new-world-born Spanish were next, mestizos (Spanish/Native heritage) were below them, Native Americans were the "lowest", etc. I suppose it was either human nature to mix or partially motivated for Natives to assimilate AND have mixed children who would have better lives/options than they would.
 
Old 01-20-2014, 05:23 PM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 14 days ago)
 
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One way to look at it is this. Colonization of what is now Latin America was mainly a male-dominated thing. Men came, often without their families. Because few women came with the men, the men went for the local women. Mixing took place early on, and often.
 
Old 01-20-2014, 05:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
I think you exaggerate a bit here. This is true for immigrants of Colour (Africans, Antillais, Arabs and Asians) but isn't necessarily true for immigrants from other European countries, and the exact same thing could be said for immigrants of colour in the United States or the UK. Black immigrants aren't faring all that well in the US and especially not in the UK, and in the US there have been issues with assimilating large numbers of Hispanics who have been here for generations, including Puerto Ricans who aren't even foreigners. You point out that Obama was born to foreign parents, but so was Nicolas Sarkozy. It's not an immigrants vs. natives issue so much as it is a White vs. people of Colour issue since the Antillais are treated like immigrants in France as well, much like how West Indians were treated as foreigners in the UK when we first arrived in the 50's. This is in no way, shape or form a uniquely or even predominantly French phenomenon.
Loads of blacks in NYC from France so I am not unfamiliar with what's going on there. You face racism but are told that you cannot be legitimately French, yet organize as Antilleans, Africans, or Arabs. You cannot even collect statistics to measure the socio economic status, and so establish a fact that there is widespread bias in employment or housing. The notion is that any mention of ethnicity divides the population, who should all be French, and nothing more.

Yet France has as big, if not a bigger problem with its nonwhites than the USA has. Even though France doesn't have to deal with the legacy of Jim Crow and slavery to the extent that the USA does. No region in France ever had black populations as large (by numbers and % of population) as the US South. This was what generated racial panic, where whites feared the potential political power of the newly freed blacks, and sought to brutally crush it.

Let me know when France elects some one whose father came from Mali. Not likely I think that we will agree. Especially with Hussein as a middle name.


My references are to people of color. Indeed the USA attracts immigrants mainly from Asia, Latin America, and the Caribbean.

I will use West Indians living in NYC. Jamaicans will be the proxy given that they are the largest group. I will also use Haitians, who have language issues in fitting into NYC.

Note that many of the most successful have left NYC for the suburbs, or for other states, so these numbers actually UNDER STATE performance.


These numbers are based on the 2010 census

Average household income; native $55k Jamaican $50k Haitian $49k

Male labor force participation rates: native 65% Jamaican 74% Haitian 70%
Female " " native 58% Jamaican 70%, Haitian 63%
Poverty rates Native 21% Jamaican 13% Haitian 17%
Public assistance native 5% Jamaican 5% Haitian 4%
Home ownership rates; native 33%, Jamaican 40% Haitian 32%.

A major difference between France and the USA is that it attracts larger numbers of highly educated immigrants of color. Indeed Asian and African immigrants are even better educated than are white Americans. Clearly they perceive more opportunities for work as professionals and Managers then they anticipate in France.


http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/...nmigration.pdf


This provide some data on immigrants in general and Caribbean immigrants in particular throughout the USA.

So the USA attracts large numbers of educated immigrants. And a sizeable % of immigrants in the FIRST generation have reached the middle class.

Racism is clearly a problem but we are allowed to organize to fight against it. Not sure if the same is true for France and Latin America.

Last edited by caribny; 01-20-2014 at 06:03 PM..
 
Old 01-21-2014, 02:33 AM
 
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Debunking "Blacks in Latin America Dominican Republic" Monuments"expoused" - YouTube
 
Old 01-21-2014, 02:34 AM
 
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Review: Black in Latin America, Haiti & the DR, An Island Divided. P1, the DR - YouTube
 
Old 01-21-2014, 02:35 AM
 
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Review: Black in Latin America, Mexico & Peru: The Black Grandma in the Closet, P1, Mexico - YouTube
 
Old 01-21-2014, 12:52 PM
 
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If you are showing this to explain why Dominicans use the word "indio" rather than mulato, this doesn't do the job. The peoples of mixed Afro and Amerindo ancestry who identify as Indio live within communities that are identifiably Indigenous by culture. While there are aspects of Dominican culture that show Taino roots the DR isn't culturally Indigenous.

These aren't people of mixed ancestry who decided to identify as Indio, despite having a very distant connection to Indigenous peoples. Amazonian Indians, Caribs from Dominica, and the Miskito Indians of Nicaragua are very specific ethnic groups, with a specific culture and lifestyle. Over time some might have become mixed with others, but these mixed people live within these communities, no differently than any one else. These are people who were raised within these communities, and quite likely suffer stigmatization, given that in the examples cited these communities face levels of bias from the larger society.


In fact Ginetta Candelario speaks of an Indio Iberian identity which was developed in the 19th century to differentiate that part of the island from Haiti, which was seen by Dominicans, and the world at large as a black nation. This attitude was further boosted under both Trujillo and Balaguer.

Also "black behind the ear" is normally used to ridicule people who try to minimize their connection to black people, so I don't know why this is used. Indeed all one needs to do is to look at the hair and the facial features to see evidence of African ancestry in a very large % of the DR population, especially in places like Santo Domingo. No need to peep behind the ear.

Cubans, who were also under Spanish rule, use the term mulato, but then they don't have a need to differentiate themselves from Haiti.

Reality is that in the Americas the patterns of slavery and post slavery colonialism led to a negation of things African, and especially of negroid features. Dominicans are by no means immune from that, and have an added incentive to have an aversion to that because of their issues with Haiti. A Dominican friend of mine told me that they used to tease his brother by calling him "Haitian", because he was the darkest, and he used to get extremely angry.

Just say that in the DR there are issues of skin color, hair, and facial feature,s and that people have an ambivalence towards Africa, just like others in the Americas. Certainly not unique to the DR. That Dominicans are working their way through this, as are other peoples who have visible African ancestry. And that there is an increasingly healthy attitude towards this, and end it there.

To pretend as if all is well fools no one who knows exactly what the elites and the upper middle class on that island look like, when compared to the non Haitian poor. Indeed there were even reports that 10-20 years ago darker people often had difficulties in being allowed to enter nightclubs, and there was a well publicized incident with some employees of the US Embassy.

The video also makes reference to the Cocolos and the people from Samana who derive from black Americans, and the fact that they identify as black. This to suggest that Dominicans have no problem with self identifying as black. Well these groups come from a different cultural context than do most Dominicans, so how they self identify has little to do with how the average Dominican self identifies. Indeed when the Cocolos arrived they were stigmatized for being black.
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