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View Poll Results: Is raced discussed in The Americas 24/7
Yes, Latin Americas think about race all the time 1 33.33%
No, this board has been invaded by race extremists. 2 66.67%
Voters: 3. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-21-2014, 12:54 PM
 
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Most of this program was nonsense. Don't know why Gates didn't focus instead on Colombia, which has a large Afrodescendant population, which is unknown to most people not familiar with that country.

 
Old 01-25-2014, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Calgary,AB
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Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Obama was definitely not a rich guy. At best he can be described as coming from a lower middle class background, and with a some what dysfunctional family, given his abandonment by his father, and the fact that for much of his youth he had to be raised by his grand parents, who were often at a loss about how to raise a young black boy.

My references are about the treatment of black and darker mulattos in Latin America. There is more space for the Indigenous peoples to protest out of a realization that those lands were original theirs. People who are very visibly of at least part Africa descent aren't allowed those spaces. Those who do protest are accused of importing US style racism.

Malaman, a Brazilian, made those accusations when I referenced a film called Raca where three black Brazilians are referenced. He seems to think that he knows more about what these more African liking people in Brazil endure, even though I suspect he isn't one of these. Like many others, he seems highly offended at any discussion of the fact that, despite claims that racism is minimal, Brazilians of predominant African ancestry are clustered at the bottom, even more than they are in the USA, with its history of extreme racism, which it has worked hard to reduce. So he negates the right of these black and dark mulatto Brazilians to speak out and mobilize.

France has a certain attitude towards the assimilation. It isn't working. France is another example of a country where ethnic minorities aren't given space to discuss their own identities, without facing accusations of refusing to assimilate.

France is as much a country of immigration as are the UK, USA, Canada, and Australia. Those nations have however learnt lessons from the past and at least attempt to allow immigrants, and ethnic minorities, to achieve upward mobility and economic integration, while allowing them some room to define their identities. Not to say that there aren't problems and substantial pockets of poverty don't exist, especially in the USA. But then France is notorious for the fact that even the third generation of immigrant origin people (those whose GRANDPARENTS were the immigrants) don't seem to be doing too well on the whole.

I got you point but you have to realise when people talk about racism in Latin America is mainly about indigenous people which reprensents between 8% to 60% depending of the country, I suppose the issue about people with African roots is mainly an important issue in the Anglo-sphere, apart from that maybe in Peru (its music is mainly from African roots), those with African roots has a large impact there, but I do not very well that case, Apart from Argentina I spent a time working in Bolivia I know about the love for the Afro-Bolivian Culture in Yungas, specially its music and their footballers, but they only represent not more than 0.5% of the total population, btw you can said anythign racist on media there cauze you go to jail.

Last edited by dony1982; 01-25-2014 at 11:20 AM..
 
Old 01-25-2014, 11:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dony1982 View Post
I got you point but you have to realise when people talk about racism in Latin America is mainly about indigenous people , I suppose the issue about people with African roots is mainly an important issue in the Anglo-sphere, but specially in Peru (its music i mainl blaack), and Ecuador those with African roots has a large impact in those societies, but I do not very well those cases, Apart from Argentina I spent a time working in Bolivia I know about the love for the Afro-Bolivian Culture in Yungas, specially its music and their footballers, but they only represent not more than 0.5% of the total population, btw you can said anythign racist on media there cauze you go to jail.


Yes it is "legitimate" to talk about racism in Latin America when it comes to the Indigenous peoples.

HOWEVER when people of African descent advocate for their own interests they are called racists and accused of copying US style racism.

Latin America has a large Afrodescendant population. It is also a sign of being a racist society when the only blacks who get recognition are sports figures and musicians. These were specialized talents and only a few will excel. So must the others be content to live in poverty? Increasing numbers, especially in Brazil, and Colombia and parts of Central America, say NO!
 
Old 01-25-2014, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Calgary,AB
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Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Yes it is "legitimate" to talk about racism in Latin America when it comes to the Indigenous peoples.

HOWEVER when people of African descent advocate for their own interests they are called racists and accused of copying US style racism.

Latin America has a large Afrodescendant population. It is also a sign of being a racist society when the only blacks who get recognition are sports figures and musicians. These were specialized talents and only a few will excel. So must the others be content to live in poverty? Increasing numbers, especially in Brazil, and Colombia and parts of Central America, say NO!
It depends, they can advoctes for their rights , Afro-americans are in the same situation than many indigenous, maybe you should compare their incomes in comparison with other socio-cultural minorities (or in the case of indegenous majorities), nobody is saying that they do not have rights but their situation is not so different that other people, like I told you put Alvaro Mamani from harvesting in Quillacollo to California and it will increase easily its income.

Also try to figure out that societies have different issue to deal , Terrorism is a big ssue in USA and not in Latin America, racism it has been tackled wiht the idea of multiculturalism, peple mostly speak the same language and religion go to the same churches,but if you have a interes about it , try to read Folha, Mercurio or watch Red o Globo, Caracol or Telefe.
 
Old 01-25-2014, 11:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dony1982 View Post
It depends, they can advoctes for their rights , Afro-americans are in the same situation than many indigenous, maybe you should compare their incomes in comparison with other socio-cultural minorities (or in the case of indegenous majorities), nobody is saying that they do not have rights but their situation is not so different that other people,.
.

In Brazil blacks earn less than 50% of whites, this based on government statistics. In addition when one adjust these incomes for levels of education attained, this gap WIDENS in Brazil rather than narrowing, as occurs in the USA.

So why your implication that their situation is no different from other people.

If one looks at Colombia it is possibly even worse. Society acknowledges that Indigenous people are owed remedies, based upon their history. However there doesn't seem to be anything done about the situation with Colombia's Afrodescended peoples, who are rendered almost invisible.

And yes when people in Brazil accuse the black empowerment groups of importing US style racism, mostly because they render the lie that Brazil is this racial utopia, then tfhey are saying that they don't have a right to advocate. As we can see educated blacks and dark skinned mulattos in Brazil also face issues of bias in employment, so while improving their access to education is critical, it doesn't reduce the problem of bias.

Some would argue that the darkest most negroid looking people in Latin America are possibly at the bottom of the social ladder, even when compared to Indigenous people. Yet people will deny that issues of racism and colorism aren't problematic. Instead they focus on pretending that the USA of 60 years ago still exists.
 
Old 01-25-2014, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Calgary,AB
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Is okay to try to acknowledge that Afro-Latin Americans are treated bad is an important issue, but also you cannot denied the other problem, indigenous are at the bottom in all Latin America is an issue YES, blacks are also at the bottom is an issue YES, but people sometimes do not realise because in census you DON'T ask for race, that is another problem with statistics, the government do not know what % of blacks or indigenous or Asians are poor in comparison wth mestizos or supposed whites (I do not know about Brazil).

Of course your point is totally valid and I am against any discrimination (and I have never suffered it), but all the problems should be tackled, people care more for indigenous not for the remedies or land, is that because if you walk on La Paz, Lima or Quito you will see hundred of them begging on the street, also they are used in the wrong way to collect money from ONGs, they export their poverty to the rest of the world in order to gain $$$, also political parties like MAS try to enclose all the minorities , but I consider really racist were some years ago the INDIGENOUS problem that some people claimed that Bolivia, Ecuador and Guatemala were poor because of having a large porcentage of Amerindian people that was really RACIST, thanks god that comment disappeared after the ascension of Morales in Bolivia and Toledo in Peru.

About USA, do not worry the strong-Anti americanism from South America is from Plan Condor, USA supported Videla, Pinochet, Banzer and another couple of dictatorships who killed thousands of people, in that you can see the root of Anti- americanism in SA.
 
Old 01-31-2014, 02:35 AM
 
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Black in Latin America | Kontak
 
Old 01-31-2014, 02:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dony1982 View Post
Is okay to try to acknowledge that Afro-Latin Americans are treated bad is an important issue, but also you cannot denied the other problem, indigenous are at the bottom in all Latin America is an issue YES, blacks are also at the bottom is an issue YES, but people sometimes do not realise because in census you DON'T ask for race, that is another problem with statistics, the government do not know what % of blacks or indigenous or Asians are poor in comparison wth mestizos or supposed whites (I do not know about Brazil).

Of course your point is totally valid and I am against any discrimination (and I have never suffered it), but all the problems should be tackled, people care more for indigenous not for the remedies or land, is that because if you walk on La Paz, Lima or Quito you will see hundred of them begging on the street, also they are used in the wrong way to collect money from ONGs, they export their poverty to the rest of the world in order to gain $$$, also political parties like MAS try to enclose all the minorities , but I consider really racist were some years ago the INDIGENOUS problem that some people claimed that Bolivia, Ecuador and Guatemala were poor because of having a large porcentage of Amerindian people that was really RACIST, thanks god that comment disappeared after the ascension of Morales in Bolivia and Toledo in Peru.

About USA, do not worry the strong-Anti americanism from South America is from Plan Condor, USA supported Videla, Pinochet, Banzer and another couple of dictatorships who killed thousands of people, in that you can see the root of Anti- americanism in SA.
They do ask for race in several Latin American countries now. Brazil and Colombia being examples. The Indigenous populations are well defined and so there is ample data on them. The Afrodescendant populations less so because no one can agree who fits and who doesnt fit into this category. In Brazil there is the claim that 50% are in this category. Nonsense as Pardos include people who would be considered mestizo elsewhere, and who have minimal, if any Afro ancestry. In Colombia the govt said 26% in one census and then reduced it to 11% in a subsequent census.

Do you know that there are hundreds of thousands of internally displaced blacks in Colombia, and that the govt has done almost nothing to help them? They have had to appeal to outsiders, including the Congressional Black Caucus in the USA for help.


There are whole hemisphere wide forums dedicated to the "plight of the Indigenous". Just about EVERY one concedes this problem. They have huge forums to deal with this topic and many NGOs have been established to deal with that issue. In addition the Indigenous people are seen as being a "legitimate" people to the extent that there were the inhabitants when the Europeans arrived.

With Afro descendant populations in Latin America its a whole different ball game. As the Afro descended populations in North America and in the non Hispanic Caribbean have begun to move forward, these populations in much of Latin America have lagged. All one needs to do is to look at the high visibility of the 30% of the Guyana population, which is overwhelmingly African (excluding those with significant non African ancestry), with what obtains elsewhere in South America, aside from Suriname. And this despite the ethnic tensions with the East Indian population, which are numerically, politically, and economically dominant in Guyana.

Fortunately in the Dom Rep they account for such a large % of the population (maybe as high as 90%) that its hard to completely exclude them, though there is even there a high correlation between skin color and socio economic status.

The response has been to deny that a problem exists, because there is "so much mixing". Or to suggest that bias isnt because of race, but only class. In either case Afro descendants are deprived of having an ability to advocate to ensure that their needs are also given priority.

And if you want to see desperately poor. Go to most Latin countries and see how many people, who look as if they are fully African, exist outside of conditions of poverty. Not many if one ignores Cuba (which always had a black middle class, even when slavery was still in existence) and where descendants of West Indian immigrants exist.
 
Old 01-31-2014, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Calgary,AB
70 posts, read 89,603 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
They do ask for race in several Latin American countries now. Brazil and Colombia being examples. The Indigenous populations are well defined and so there is ample data on them. The Afrodescendant populations less so because no one can agree who fits and who doesnt fit into this category. In Brazil there is the claim that 50% are in this category. Nonsense as Pardos include people who would be considered mestizo elsewhere, and who have minimal, if any Afro ancestry. In Colombia the govt said 26% in one census and then reduced it to 11% in a subsequent census.

Do you know that there are hundreds of thousands of internally displaced blacks in Colombia, and that the govt has done almost nothing to help them? They have had to appeal to outsiders, including the Congressional Black Caucus in the USA for help.


There are whole hemisphere wide forums dedicated to the "plight of the Indigenous". Just about EVERY one concedes this problem. They have huge forums to deal with this topic and many NGOs have been established to deal with that issue. In addition the Indigenous people are seen as being a "legitimate" people to the extent that there were the inhabitants when the Europeans arrived.

With Afro descendant populations in Latin America its a whole different ball game. As the Afro descended populations in North America and in the non Hispanic Caribbean have begun to move forward, these populations in much of Latin America have lagged. All one needs to do is to look at the high visibility of the 30% of the Guyana population, which is overwhelmingly African (excluding those with significant non African ancestry), with what obtains elsewhere in South America, aside from Suriname. And this despite the ethnic tensions with the East Indian population, which are numerically, politically, and economically dominant in Guyana.

Fortunately in the Dom Rep they account for such a large % of the population (maybe as high as 90%) that its hard to completely exclude them, though there is even there a high correlation between skin color and socio economic status.

The response has been to deny that a problem exists, because there is "so much mixing". Or to suggest that bias isnt because of race, but only class. In either case Afro descendants are deprived of having an ability to advocate to ensure that their needs are also given priority.

And if you want to see desperately poor. Go to most Latin countries and see how many people, who look as if they are fully African, exist outside of conditions of poverty. Not many if one ignores Cuba (which always had a black middle class, even when slavery was still in existence) and where descendants of West Indian immigrants exist.
D'accord the issue should me more analysed, in the case of Colombia "los desplazados" is a big problem "Las guerrillas" have taken the land of many people, in the Case of Guiana it is an anglo-caribean country like Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago , Barbados ,etc, nice countries but not Latin Americans, Surinam is DUTCH SPEAKING and La Guyane française a French DROM.

In the case of the post MelismaticEchoes , that nothing new, Pele, Rincon , Asprilla or Valencia considered them first Brasileiro, Colombiano or Ecuatoriano, I have italian heritage but first I feel Argie, later Sudamericano .

About th poverty, try to take a flight to Guarayos and see how people lives with 20$ per month, used to be discriminated for not speaking Spanish, or compare the way that African Bolivians are treated in the Yungas in comparison with quechuas in Chapare who were almost annihilated by the DEA.

Problems are everywhere, or if you want to bash something, try to think if someone from the lowest income and semi-illiterate can be one day a president, well that happened in 2006 his name is Evo Morales, who is still considered a terrorist in the northern part of the Hemisphere. We consider this a class struggle not a racial tension.

Last edited by dony1982; 01-31-2014 at 09:51 PM..
 
Old 02-01-2014, 01:37 AM
 
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Evo Morales, who is still considered a terrorist in the northern part of the Hemisphere. We consider this a class struggle not a racial tension.

A big part of the reason why Evo is despised is he is an (almost) full blooded Indigenous person. Many of Venezuela's white elites despise Chavexz because they think that he (being of mixed Indigenous, African and European ancestry) unleashed darker people on them, and with all his warts, darker Venezuelans are considerably more involved in the upper middle class than they were before.

These attitudes mirror those who despise Obama, not because he is ineffective, but because he is black.

So Latin America turns out to be as racist as the USA, even though they done a better job at hiding it, mainly because people of color have been less assertive in demanding inclusion.

A rule of thumb is in Latin America, its not race, its class, and in the USA, its not class, its race. And if one says the opposite one faces a huge barrage of emotion.

Truth is in both societies its a mix of both. Americans have no more reasons to feel proud of the so called upward mobility which exists than Latin Americans have of the supposed lack of racial tensions.
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