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View Poll Results: Is raced discussed in The Americas 24/7
Yes, Latin Americas think about race all the time 1 33.33%
No, this board has been invaded by race extremists. 2 66.67%
Voters: 3. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-31-2012, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,564 posts, read 4,652,276 times
Reputation: 1562

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Some people believe in a myth that says that the South region of Brazil (Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina and Parana) was some kind of a "wild" region when the German and Italian immigrants arrived there in the 19th century.

Those people believe that the "colonization" of that region only started in the 19th century. That's nothing more than a myth.

For centuries, before the arrival of the Germans and Italians, that region had received Portuguese colonizers, and also Spanish colonizers (because some parts were belonging to Spain in the beginning).

Jesuit priests had also made "missoes" and "aldeamentos" in that region, and have Christianized indigenous people.

Also, there were African slaves in the South, specially in the "estancias" (cattle farms) of Rio Grande do Sul.

By the time of the Independence of Brazil, in 1822, the ethnic compostion of the population of the South was not very different from other regions of the country. There was a population of tri-racial ancestry (Iberian, African and indigenous).

The city of Lages, in the state of Santa Catarina, for example, was founded in 1771, many decades before the arrival of any German or Italian immigrants.

Another example, the town of Castro, in the state of Paraná, was founded in 1789, also many decades before the arrival of any German or Italian immigrants.

The fact is that region was not "wild", and already had a typical Brazilian tri-racial population.

The reality is that the German and Italian immigrants, mostly poor, have mixed with tri-racial Brazilians, during the 19th century. And that mixing increased in the next generations.

 
Old 02-01-2012, 04:57 AM
 
Location: Brasilia
196 posts, read 360,012 times
Reputation: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I find white people attractive, but why export models with predominantly German ancestry to the catwalks of Milan as a representative of Brazil? When I think of the typical Brazilian, I think of a caramel-skinned mulatto with curly hair, in a thong on Copacabana beach, lol.
And here is what I call "stereotype"...Trimac, Brazil has no "face". It is black, mixed, indian, white..
 
Old 02-01-2012, 11:28 AM
 
12 posts, read 33,787 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalaMan View Post
That's an ILLUSION! Those people are NOT unmixed!

They may look white for you... And maybe a few of them who don't know History very well think that themselves are "unmixed"... But they are mixed.

The fact that they "look white" doesn't mean that they don't have some African or indigenous DNA. Most of them have.


Genetic studies show that 34% of the population of the South Region of Brazil (states of Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina and Parana) have mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of African or indigenous origin, and 66% of the population have European mitochondrial DNA.

(Source: PubMed Central, Table 4: Am J Hum Genet. 2000 August; 67(2): 444 )

Now, you should make the following reasoning exercise:

Take one individual in the South region of Brazil who has European mitochondrial DNA (someone in the 66%). As we know, that mitochondrial DNA comes directly from his maternal grandmother (the mother of his mother). But, how can we be sure that the other THREE grandparents also have European mitochondrial DNA? Since we don't know what is the origin of their mitochondrial DNA, we can assume 34% of probabilities for each grandparent to have African or indigenous mtDNA, since they are part of the general population of the South. Since there are THREE "unknown mtDNA" grandparents, and 34% is equivalent to ONE THIRD, chances are high that at least one of the three have African or indigenous mtDNA.

That means: for each individual in the group of 66% that has European mitochondrial DNA received from the maternal grandmother, chances are high that at least one of the other three grandparents have African or indigenous mtDNA.

Once you have European mitochondrial DNA, but one of your four grandparents has African or indigenous mtDNA, that means you have mixed ancestry.

The fact is: being blonde and having blue eyes in Santa Catarina doesn't mean that you are "100% white". You may have 5% of African or indigenous ancestry, and don't know it.
This doesn’t mean anything, no one in the world is 100% unmixed or arian, even Norwegian and Swedish... anyway this study is a bit old and not so true, in 2009 other study published here (Folha Online - Cincia - DNA de brasileiro 80% europeu, indica estudo - 05/10/2009) show that 80% of Brazilian dna is European (in the southern it would be 90%)... I know that Brazil is typically mixed country, but anyway has a large almost unmixed white population. Other study says that some Brazilian think that they are mixed, but they are not because most of them are descendents of southern European such as Portuguese, Italians and Spanish and the southern European have the skin more toned than the northern European… I really love tanned brunette girls, I just want to mention that has a large white population in Brazil too.
 
Old 02-01-2012, 11:48 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,369,517 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by obpumc View Post
This doesn’t mean anything, no one in the world is 100% unmixed or arian, even Norwegian and Swedish... anyway this study is a bit old and not so true, in 2009 other study published here (Folha Online - Cincia - DNA de brasileiro 80% europeu, indica estudo - 05/10/2009) show that 80% of Brazilian dna is European (in the southern it would be 90%)... I know that Brazil is typically mixed country, but anyway has a large almost unmixed white population. Other study says that some Brazilian think that they are mixed, but they are not because most of them are descendents of southern European such as Portuguese, Italians and Spanish and the southern European have the skin more toned than the northern European… I really love tanned brunette girls, I just want to mention that has a large white population in Brazil too.
I don't believe that 80% of Brazilian DNA is European. A huge number of Brazilians appear of fully or almost fully African ancestry for a start.
 
Old 02-01-2012, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Brasilia
196 posts, read 360,012 times
Reputation: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I don't believe that 80% of Brazilian DNA is European. A huge number of Brazilians appear of fully or almost fully African ancestry for a start.
You need some accurate information...
 
Old 02-01-2012, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,564 posts, read 4,652,276 times
Reputation: 1562
Quote:
Originally Posted by obpumc View Post
This doesn’t mean anything, no one in the world is 100% unmixed or arian, even Norwegian and Swedish... anyway this study is a bit old and not so true, in 2009 other study published here (Folha Online - Cincia - DNA de brasileiro 80% europeu, indica estudo - 05/10/2009) show that 80% of Brazilian dna is European (in the southern it would be 90%)... I know that Brazil is typically mixed country, but anyway has a large almost unmixed white population. Other study says that some Brazilian think that they are mixed, but they are not because most of them are descendents of southern European such as Portuguese, Italians and Spanish and the southern European have the skin more toned than the northern European… I really love tanned brunette girls, I just want to mention that has a large white population in Brazil too.

Those studies are VERY suspicious to say the least...

But even if they are right, there are some points that need clarification...


When you say "no one in the world is 100% unmixed or arian", you're probably right, but the fact is that you can't even think about comparing the degree of racial mixing of the Brazilian "whites" and the European whites. It can not be compared. A typical French citizen, for example, probably has only European born ancestors in his seventh or eight generation of ancestors. In Brazil, almost NOBODY has only "white" ancestors in the seventh or in the eight generation of ancestors. NOBODY. Except for very few exceptions - mainly people who have four immigrant grandparents (very rare case in Brazil nowadays).


To see the degree of difference, you should just compare the frequency of African and Amerindian haplogroups of mitochondrial DNA in the population of Brazilian "whites" with the frequency of those same haplogroups in the mitochondrial DNA of the population of European countries. Check this study:

Ancestry in the Americas | Gene Expression | Discover Magazine

The study shows that, among the 47% of Brazilians who self-declares as "whites" in the Census, only 38% have European mitochondrial DNA. The other 62% of the self-declared "whites" have African or indigenous mtDNA. Now, check those same numbers in Europe... In most European countries, more than 80% of the entire population have mtDNA of European haplogroups.


So, when you say that 80% of the Brazilian DNA is European (and I sincerely doubt it) that DOESN'T mean that 80% of Brazilians are "white". NO! Even if 80% of the Brazilian DNA is European, that 20% of DNA that is not European is WIDELY DISTRIBUTED in the ENTIRE POPULATION. That means: each person has his little bit of non-European DNA, contributing for that overall 20%. The genetic studies show that most black people in Brazil have at least 40% of European DNA, sometimes even more. So, the distribution of European DNA and non-European DNA is very "egalitarian" across the entire Brazilian population, of all skin colors.

In sum: almost everyone is mixed, almost everyone has at least one African or indigenous ancestors in the seventh or eigth generation of ancestors.
 
Old 02-01-2012, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,564 posts, read 4,652,276 times
Reputation: 1562
For those self-iluded Brazilians who think that they are "almost as white" as the Europeans, my challenge is: compare the percentage of the Brazilian population who has mitochondrial DNA from the haplogroups H and J, with the percentage of the population of European countries that has mitochondrial DNA from those same haplogroups.

The percentage of Brazilian that have mtDNA from haplogroups H and J is very small, compared to the averages of the European countries. H and J are typical European haplogroups.

That will show you from where your female maternal lineage really comes from: from African women and indigenous women.
 
Old 02-01-2012, 07:49 PM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,564 posts, read 4,652,276 times
Reputation: 1562
And if you permit me, I would like to ask the fellow Brazilians who are "anxious" to prove their "Europeanness" to listen to this song from the great Chico Science:




"Somos todos juntos uma miscigenação,
e não podemos fugir da nossa etnia,
índios, brancos, pretos e mestiços,
nada de errado em seus princípios,
o seu e o meu são iguais: corre nas veias sem parar"


Be proud of your tri-racial ancestry, and stop trying to deny it!
 
Old 02-01-2012, 08:41 PM
 
342 posts, read 1,728,416 times
Reputation: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I think it's a good thing that Brazil is so diverse with many racially-mixed people. I know there is still prejudice based on skin colour there, but I'm wondering, assuming the Spaniards and Portuguese were as racist as the early American colonists, why did America pursue a policy of segregation, while in Latin America intermarriage between natives, Europeans and later black slaves was common and even promoted? Was it to 'breed out' the Indians, as what the government tried to do in Australia with our Aborigines? The settlers in the US, in contrast, just wanted to herd off the Indians to small reservations or outright kill them. Is 'racial purity' more of an Anglo-Saxon rather than a Hispanic thing?

Why was racial segregation in the US South so extreme during the Jim Crow era? Like blacks not allowed to marry whites, many black men hanged for being with white women. Other nations with a colonial past, presumably also pretty racist, never took things that far.
There were far more Native Americans in many Latin American countries than the US so it was not possible to kill all of them off.

Also I believe that Spanish and Portuguese tended to be less racist and more promiscuous than the Europeans that colonized the US.
 
Old 02-01-2012, 09:13 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,369,517 times
Reputation: 11862
Brazil's mixed population is what makes it's culture. People shouldn't be ashamed of it, it's great to have ancestors from different parts of the world. It's not like most white Americans aren't mixed either,
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