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View Poll Results: How do you view Dominicans?
Strictly Latin American. 40 33.61%
Afro-Latino 65 54.62%
Strictly Afro-Caribbean. 14 11.76%
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-23-2014, 09:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Mestizo applies to any mixed person, but its more often than not applied to the indigenous/european mix because that's the most common in Latin America. Mulatto is simply a category within the mestizo label, or better yet a sub-label as is zambo (indigenous/african). It simply lets people know what type of mix it is, but not that its something other than a mix.

The Spanish word for mixing anything is mezclar.

People should also be careful not to confuse color with race, because in many places almost everyone is mixed but different skin tones get different labels and simply means that, a skin tone and not a race. And, for the most part, there's not much identity tied to each skin color, when it comes to Latin America identity tends to be more along the national or patriotic level.

Case in point, Dominicans don't really have a racial identity and neither do most Latin Americans. This is more of a USA phenomenon and maybe a handful of other countries in this hemisphere, that's pretty much it.
U.S. Americans are simply U.S. Americans first & foremost

 
Old 07-23-2014, 09:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Mestizo applies to any mixed person, but its more often than not applied to the indigenous/european mix because that's the most common in Latin America. Mulatto is simply a category within the mestizo label, or better yet a sub-label as is zambo (indigenous/african). It simply lets people know what type of mix it is, but not that its something other than a mix.

The Spanish word for mixing anything is mezclar.

People should also be careful not to confuse color with race, because in many places almost everyone is mixed but different skin tones get different labels and simply means that, a skin tone and not a race. And, for the most part, there's not much identity tied to each skin color, when it comes to Latin America identity tends to be more along the national or patriotic level.

Case in point, Dominicans don't really have a racial identity and neither do most Latin Americans. This is more of a USA phenomenon and maybe a handful of other countries in this hemisphere, that's pretty much it.
But many of the so called mestizos have African & other ancestral lineages. Lots of it has to do w/ (mainstream) culture & looks, phenotype etc; the term mezclado seems better. Some anthropologists & academia have coined terms like AfroMestizos. I've even took it a step further & came up with EuroZambos, & IndioMulatto/IndigenaMulatto LOL.

Keep in mind that culture and who one is raised by or what communities they live in determine or rather influence the individuals identity.
 
Old 07-23-2014, 09:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Haiti is 95% black. I always laugh at those who pretend that it has huge mixed population.


Only about 10% of Dominicans identify as black. It is a known fact that very dark skinned people in the DR are called "Haitiano" whether they are or not.

Any way it is good that Dominicans are finally being more public about their Africanh heritage. This no doubt in response to international criticism about Haiti, because such open identification with the African aspects of its culture are recent. Good that it did some good.

Some time ago I remember reading some nonsense that the merengue dance came from some limp, because evidently some European sprained his ankle and so danced with a limp. This in some Dominican tourist oriented literature.

It would help Dominicans if they renounce the bigoted nonsense of Balaguer. While Trujillo is from an unenlightened era Balaguer isnt. He is a part of the modern DR,

If significant numbers of Dominicans werent likely to be impressed by Balaguer's racist appeals against Juan Pena he wouldnt have done so. Pena was born in the DR, and raised by a Dominican family. Such behavior is equivalent to those who damn Obama as an African witch doctor, and it must be noted that both Romney and McCain ran away from that, because they knew how much damage it would have done to them.

Also why the term "Indio" on the ID cards? Why not mulato which more accurately describes most Dominicans? After all doesnt the term "mulato" not indicate the triracial ancestries of most Dominicans, than "Indio", which is usually used to designate one race?
Trujillo & Balaguer ironically had mixed Haitian ancestral ties & lineages within their genealogy/family history.

In regards to merengue, there happens to be two versions of how and why the merengue came to be. First, it’s said that the merengue was invented by slaves and that the dance was developed because of two slaves chained together. The other was because of a national hero that came home from the war and that his limping leg was the basis of the dance steps. There’s also the idea that the merengue was developed due to the influence of Cuban music. All in all, it doesn’t really matter. The most important thing is that the symbolic imagery of the dance steps pertains to legends (or facts) that happened a long time ago and that it helped to define a culture.

Some other sources say merengue may have originated or developed from a courtship dance or originally danced in a groups or in groups rather.

I suggest that you travel to DR or do deeper research. New census results showed that over 12% of DR population is identified as BLACK. But more realistically, over 20% of DR's population identifies as black.

As for the Indio claims, Indio is more of a skin color term with skin tone gradations and variations that go in all across the spectrum. Many Dominicans do interchangeably call themselves mulatto, mestizo, multiracial or other things. Again, you're conflating race with skin color terminology.

And black & African identity has always been strong & widely present & existent in the DR. Have you travelled to DR?

Not all blacks or dark skinned people in the DR are Haitians or come from Haitian origins.


As for Haiti, Haiti is in fact more mixed & more diverse than many want to admit. And many Haitians have Dominican origins.

As for your claims on José Francisco Peña Gómez, he was actually born to María Marcelino, a Dominican woman, and Oguís Vincent, a Haitian immigrant, on March 6, 1937 in Mao, Valverde, Dominican Republic, Peña Gómez was adopted as an infant by a Dominican peasant family when his parents had to flee to Haiti (where they died) in order to save their lives as the Dominican dictator Rafael Trujillo enacted the Parsley Massacre against Haitians that same year. In later years, Peña Gómez’ opponents would use his Haitian ancestry against him; Dominicans have a deep fear and mistrust of anyone with Haitian blood owing to Haiti's occupation of the country from 1822 to 1844.

Last edited by SobreTodo; 07-23-2014 at 09:46 PM..
 
Old 07-23-2014, 09:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
That's no longer true and it was never a 'racial' term, simply a term applied to various shades of skin color between black and white.
Indio was originally used to distinguish Dominicans from those of a marked Haitian origins or descent though particularly during the times of Trujillo dictatorship, although before that time Indio did exist in a variety of ways, especially Dominicans that took pride in their indigenous Taino &/or other Native American ancestral roots or wanted to tie themselves to the soil & land of Quisqueya Bella better known as Dominican Republic.

Last edited by SobreTodo; 07-23-2014 at 10:06 PM..
 
Old 07-23-2014, 10:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
That's no longer true and it was never a 'racial' term, simply a term applied to various shades of skin color between black and white.


What classifications exist now, and why were they changed [international laughter at that whole Dominican black avoidance, but you would never admit that]?

This is what Balaguer wrote in 1984. "the negro, abandoned to his instinct, and without the restraint of reproduction that a relatively high living imposes on all countries, multiplies himself with a speed similar to that of vegetable species". This was in that infamous piece of racist trash called "La Isla al Reves". It further tied the DR, not as an Afro Iberian culture, but as a SPANISH culture!


Dominicans rewarded him by re-electing him president in 1984. A nation where over 80% of the population should have been insulted, that is if they didn't despise that part of them which was "negro".

I just couldn't imagine Ronald Reagan writing something like that and getting away with it, even though those who would have been insulted definitely didn't vote for him.

Don't tell me that "Indio" means skin color, because it covered a whole range of skin color continuums. It was a way of negating any connection to blackness, which using the term mulato would imply. Read a "Black behind the ears" by a Dominican called Ginetta Candelario. She wrote a whole book about why Dominicans constructed what she calls an Indio Iberian identity construct. HAITI was the reason why.

So let us be honest here. All the recent moves to highlight the African heritage of the DR are an attempt to defend themselves against the charges made by many concerning how they treat Dominico Haitians. Their defense is to promulgate the lie that there wasn't/isn't real issues in the Dr concerning skin color and hair texture. Well the DR must be a unique country in the Americas, so I don't buy that bit.


Balaguer would not have written his trash, nor would he have been elected AFTER he wrote that book if Dominicans really embraced that part of them which is African.
 
Old 07-23-2014, 10:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
.

I suggest that you travel to DR or do deeper research. New census results showed that over 12% of DR population is identified as BLACK. But more realistically, over 20% of DR's population identifies as black.

As for the Indio claims, Indio is more of a skin color term with skin tone gradations and variations that go in all across the spectrum. Many Dominicans do interchangeably call themselves mulatto, mestizo, multiracial or other things. Again, you're conflating race with skin color terminology.

.

I have been to Santo Domingo, a city which to my eyes looks about 50-60% black. I was just amazed as to how black the city was.

Of course, as usual these blacks aren't in the elites, pretty much dominated by near white folks.

But I would defer to comments made by Dominican analysts, who being Dominican, will have nuances, that I as a visitor would never access.

Frank Moya Pons, Silvio Torres, and Ginetta Candelario have all written about Dominican identity. In a nut shell its goes like this. The DR contrasts itself against Haiti, so if Haiti is black and "African" then the DR must be the opposite, can't say it is white, so it invents an identity which removes it from any connection to black, which mulatto clearly connotates.

But here is the problem. The DR was abandoned by the Spanish who preferred the richer mainland colonies, so the white population plummeted and the bulk of its population became mulato. The dislocation due to the Haitian Revolution drove a large part of the remaining light skinned population away. Unlike Cuba, and even PR which attracted Spaniards and other Europeans from the mid 19th to the early 20th century, the migrants to the DR have been mainly Haitians and to a lesser degree blacks from the USA and from the Eastern Caribbean. Other migrations from Asia, Europe and the Middle East were dwarfed especially this Haitian immigration. This Haitian "invasion" began during the slavery era with escaped slaves hiding in remote regions of the DR. It continued under the Haitian rule of the DR, and after that the immigration of Haitian workers, which continues today.

And yes Dominicans dance like Haitians, not like Cubans.

But here is where the rubber hits the road. Dominicans love to pretend as if the Haitian occupation of their country was an anti mulato regime. HOW COULD IT BE WHEN BOYER, then the President of Haiti, was "gen de couleur"? Coming from a wealthy MULATTO Haitian family, when it was still a French colony, AND EDUCATED in France. Reading Dominican narratives one would think that he was some Congo "savage" fresh from the jungles of Central Africa!

Jean Pierre Boyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So now we know why the term "mulatto" was replaced by "Indio" After all the "monstrous" Boyer was a mulatto, and probably didn't look that different from the average Dominican.


Remember this next time you spout that "Indio" is just a color, and not a negation of a (part) black identity!
 
Old 07-24-2014, 06:11 PM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 12 days ago)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
Indio was originally used to distinguish Dominicans from those of a marked Haitian origins or descent though particularly during the times of Trujillo dictatorship, although before that time Indio did exist in a variety of ways, especially Dominicans that took pride in their indigenous Taino &/or other Native American ancestral roots or wanted to tie themselves to the soil & land of Quisqueya Bella better known as Dominican Republic.
It applied to mulattoes of various intermediate shades, even those that were of partial Haitian origin. These last ones have never been a significant amount and until recent decades (literally the last 20 years or so) was such a small minority that most Dominicans didn't even know what a pure black person looked like. At least, that's what many of the older Dominicans say, especially many of those of about 40 years old and over. Today they make up at least 10% of the country's population, perhaps slightly more than that.

The other side of the coin is that even today some people with a much more European appearance but with a few features that shows they are not fully white are referred to as indios claros, especially in areas of Santiago. The same people in say Santo Domingo (or in Puerto Rico) would be considered just white.

Another interesting thing is that I personally don't know why people make such a big deal that people like Trujillo had small amounts of Haitian origin in his lineage (one of his maternal lineages goes back to an upper class French-mulatto family from Port-au-Prince, the Chevalier family, that moved to the San Cristobal area and married a Spaniard that moved to the DR from his country of birth; while there's no recollection why part of the Chevalier family moved to the DR, it probably had to do with one of the bout of anti-mulatto sentiment that has marred Haitian politics, especially among the mulatto vs black upper class families) as way of creating the image of an irony. When you think about on an island-wide case, the leaders that have abused Haitians the most have been people with Haitian blood regardless on what part of the island we're talking about. Case in point, most massacres involving Haitians have taken place in Haiti and ordered multiple times by people that were 100% Haitian. This is why it never made any sense to me why people will often point out that one great-grandparent of such and such Dominican leader was Haitian when history has shown on that very island that that doesn't mean much.
 
Old 07-24-2014, 08:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
It applied to mulattoes of various intermediate shades, even those that were of partial Haitian origin. These last ones have never been a significant amount and until recent decades (literally the last 20 years or so) was such a small minority that most Dominicans didn't even know what a pure black person looked like. At least, that's what many of the older Dominicans say, especially many of those of about 40 years old and over. Today they make up at least 10% of the country's population, perhaps slightly more than that.

The other side of the coin is that even today some people with a much more European appearance but with a few features that shows they are not fully white are referred to as indios claros, especially in areas of Santiago. The same people in say Santo Domingo (or in Puerto Rico) would be considered just white.

Another interesting thing is that I personally don't know why people make such a big deal that people like Trujillo had small amounts of Haitian origin in his lineage (one of his maternal lineages goes back to an upper class French-mulatto family from Port-au-Prince, the Chevalier family, that moved to the San Cristobal area and married a Spaniard that moved to the DR from his country of birth; while there's no recollection why part of the Chevalier family moved to the DR, it probably had to do with one of the bout of anti-mulatto sentiment that has marred Haitian politics, especially among the mulatto vs black upper class families) as way of creating the image of an irony. When you think about on an island-wide case, the leaders that have abused Haitians the most have been people with Haitian blood regardless on what part of the island we're talking about. Case in point, most massacres involving Haitians have taken place in Haiti and ordered multiple times by people that were 100% Haitian. This is why it never made any sense to me why people will often point out that one great-grandparent of such and such Dominican leader was Haitian when history has shown on that very island that that doesn't mean much.

It is very likely that the mulatto Haitians arrived in the DR when it was ruled by the MULATTO Boyer.

A black Haitian president NEVER ruled the DRl

Your attempt to make Haitian mulattos look like victims when they have always been the elites, even today, is amusing.

If mulattos were so victimized why are they the pillars of society, to the point where many blacks have complexes about them. Even Papa Doc who hated them, married one, as did his son?

Haiti was exactly like most pre WWII non Hispanic Caribbean nations, with one exception. It was the MULATTOS, and not colonial whites who were at the top. Blacks were at the bottom, until the last 60 or so years, just like elsewhere in the non Hispanic Caribbean.

Haitian elites have always been brutal to the ordinary Haitian, and to each other. BOTH the mulattos, and the periodic instances where blacks were the dominant group.
 
Old 07-24-2014, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Fort Bend County
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Dominican Republic = Latinos

Dominica = West Indian/Afro Caribbean
 
Old 07-24-2014, 08:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanteuse d' Opéra View Post
Dominican Republic = Latinos

Dominica = West Indian/Afro Caribbean

Dominican Republic=Latin American, Afro Latino, and Afro Caribbean.

Depends on what aspect one is referring, and there are many different manifestations of all of these categories, none being monolithic.

Its isn't an either/or question.
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