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View Poll Results: How do you view Dominicans?
Strictly Latin American. 40 33.61%
Afro-Latino 65 54.62%
Strictly Afro-Caribbean. 14 11.76%
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-07-2013, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
Reputation: 11726

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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
Maybe in those countries you specifically mentioned but it doesnt necessarily always work that way. It doesnt surprise me that they subscribe to the one-drop rule. Either way, phenotypes are seen differently in different places. In some islands, a mixed person is more likely to be seem as such. Even if you make not look the part, if they know your family, they will call you accordingly. It's not about ego, it's about heritage.
There is no "one drop rule" in England.

Basically, if you look mixed in England, they may call you mixed or a half-breed.

If you look mixed in the United States, they may call you mixed, bi-racial (even if you're technically not), or as the real old-timers might say, "mulatto."

There is no real difference in the way whites on either side of the pond will view someone who's half white-half black. The only difference between the U.S. and England is that Census workers here were instructed to classify people as "black" if they were perceived to have any African heritage (but for a long time, the U.S. had "mulatto" and other as racial categories). But that's really form over substance.

The DR essentially reversed the one drop rule.

Quote:
Here, as in much of Latin America -- the "one drop rule'' works in reverse: One drop of white blood allows even very dark-skinned people to be considered white.
And this is not because Dominicans are so anxious to express their diversity in all of its splendor. They just really, really, really, really hate being black.

Quote:
Using the word Indian to describe dark-skinned people is an attempt to distance Dominicans from any African roots, Albert and other experts said. She noted that it's not even historically accurate: The country's Taino Indians were virtually annihilated in the 1500s, shortly after Spanish colonizers arrived.
Well, so much for that Taino/Indian designation. But people insist on using it anyway. Eh.

Quote:
"There's tremendous resistance to blackness -- black is something bad," said black feminist Sergia Galván. ‘‘Black is associated with dark, illegal, ugly, clandestine things. There is a prototype of beauty here and a lot of social pressure. There are schools where braids and natural hair are prohibited."
The DR in many ways makes 1930s Mississippi look like present day Atlanta.

Quote:
"During the Trujillo regime, people who were dark skinned were rejected, so they created their own mechanism to fight it," said Ramona Hernández, Director of the Dominican Studies Institute at City College in New York. "When you ask, ‘What are you?' they don't give you the answer you want . . . saying we don't want to deal with our blackness is simply what you want to hear."
Yeah, so bascially all of the Mixed/Indian mumbo jumbo is the product of a severe inferiority/self-hating complex that rivals that of apartheid South Africa.

http://www.miamiherald.com/multimedi...rt2/index.html

Last edited by BajanYankee; 01-07-2013 at 12:42 PM..

 
Old 01-07-2013, 01:11 PM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 15 days ago)
 
5,187 posts, read 8,029,582 times
Reputation: 4269
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Zoe Saldana spent the bulk of her formative years in the DR. According to Wiki, she didn't even move back to the States until she was 16. When she corrected the reporter and said, "No, I am a black woman," I'm sure she understood exactly what she was saying. Given the context of her statement, where she says the reporter insisted that she was something other than black, it's evident that she wanted to make it clear that she embraces an African heritage (which she does have).
Wikipedia may say that, but she speaks English with no accent typical of native Spanish speakers (if anything, her accent is very much typical of New York) and this speaks volumes of what culture has had the greatest influence on her. Even her mannerisms are much more typical of Americans. She even describes herself as a New Yorker at roughly 2:25 minutes (you can scroll on the timeline at the bottom of the Youtube screen.) She also describes her childhood and where she grew up (most of her childhood and adult life has been in the USA and this is no surprise, since its quite obvious from the way she acts and thinks):



Despite all of that, there is no question that she has mixed blood in her. That is evident by simply looking at her and then looking at a black person with little to no mixture. There is also no question that in the USA she would be considered black, unless she claims her mixed ancestry as part of her identity; but on the same token, in the Caribbean (and in much of the world), she will be seen as mixed since that's what she truly is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Here's another theory:

Perhaps after living in the States for some time she began to realize how f*cked in the head a lot of Dominicans are and saw no point in perpetuating and reinforcing an international racist caste system by distancing herself from any African heritage when given the chance.
This is what I mean when I say that some people have a hard time putting aside their American cultural filters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Nobody says that no one in the DR self-identifies as black. The issue for many people is no recognition of black ancestry, period, and little to any recognition of Africanness in Dominican culture. Those are things that get completely ignored while simultaneously emphasizing a Taino or Spanish ancestry and culture.
I have been to their museums and they dedicate a lot of space to their African ancestry, as much as anything else and nothing seems sugar coated or hidden. I also have had the opportunity to view some of the history textbooks that they use in public schools there, and there are chapters dedicated to the African influence. I think you are confusing the Dominican Republic of some other times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I don't know why people have such a pollyanish view of race in the Caribbean. It's not as different from the States as some people would have you believe.
This is proof to me that you have some trouble seeing things without the US filter. I know how that feels, I've been there and done that. It takes a while to see things through other perspectives. To say that its not as different from the US system is the equivalent of saying that you don't fully understand the Caribbean classification system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I don't think there's really a "concept of race as it exists in the United States." I think that views on race are pretty universal:

White: Dominant, "master race," smart, superior, beautiful, good, brave, courageous, hardworking, etc.
Black: Impotent, uncivilized, dumb, lazy, inferior, bad, crime prone, etc., etc.
Another example that you don't fully understand the Caribbean system. There is not much race consciousness in the Caribbean (or in much of the world, for that matter.) People are much more color conscious, much more class conscious, and much more culture conscious; race, as experienced in the USA, is simply not present in people's perception of things. Again, to claim that the differences between the US system and the Caribbean system are small, is to clearly demonstrate that there is still much of a learning curve for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Race in the Caribbean is not so hard to understand if you're willing to be honest about it. It's the same story that's played out all over the globe.
Trying to be honest about this requires understanding other perspectives from their point of view and not so much imposing our cultural filters to their and then claiming that there is not much difference. There is a very wide difference between the way race is treated in the US vs pretty much, everywhere else.

I can tell from your screen name that you probably have some connection to Barbados (I think Bajan is tied to that island in some way), but its rather evident that either you have grown up in the USA or have been greatly influenced by the USA. There is simply no way that a Caribbean person would not see the differences between the USA and the Caribbean regarding this issue. Even Rhianna, who was born and grew up in Barbados, has said that she was teased when she attended school in Barbados for being 'white.' Such a thing would never happen to her in the USA and she would had never had any recollection of that had she grown up in this country rather than in the Caribbean.

I mean, if I, as an American, have been able to fully understand this, although after much introspect and with much trouble leaving my American filter behind; then someone from the Caribbean should be natural at getting this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
But by and large, most people in the U.S., Barbados, England and Jamaica are going to call a bi-racial person (half black and half white, that is) "black," particularly if their black features are self-evident. And people in the Caribbean (and the U.S. for that matter) will typically affix a label to you based on your phenotype. In other words, if you look black to them, they're going to say you're black. Nobody's going to go out of their way to find out how you racially categorize yourself in order to assuage your ego.
In my experience, this is not true. People may consider mixed race individuals as one thing, but the moment you tell them what you are, most people respect that.

Plenty of people that see me think that I'm from some other country, but that doesn't make me a foreigner. Once I tell them from where I am, they stop seeing me as a foreigner. Same with the race issue. People respect the way others identify, especially when they have much reason to identify the way they do (for example, a mixed race identity for a person that is actually mixed.) Very few people will disrespect a mixed race person by persisting in calling them something they definitely would not like to be called, at least to their faces.

Last edited by AntonioR; 01-07-2013 at 01:23 PM..
 
Old 01-07-2013, 01:24 PM
 
350 posts, read 588,519 times
Reputation: 409
I'd have to agree...Bajanyankee you seem quite confused with how race is viewed in the Caribbean. And this is coming from someone who lives in the caribbean (and apart from 4 years at university overseas ) and always has.
 
Old 01-07-2013, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,576 posts, read 2,432,116 times
Reputation: 2743
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
There is no "one drop rule" in England.

Basically, if you look mixed in England, they may call you mixed or a half-breed. [/b]


The DR essentially reversed the one drop rule.
It was your post that mentioned England. Further, if you have to state "may" then that is because the one drop rule does exist to an extent.

Honestly, does it matter even if Dominican did? Western perceptions of identity are generally backward anyway. Be fair though. Plenty Dominicans are mixed and overall, they are a mixed people. They do not need to call themselves "black." In fact, no one should feel obligated to define themselves by color when that really says nothing about who you really are.
 
Old 01-07-2013, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
Wikipedia may say that, but she speaks English with no accent typical of native Spanish speakers (if anything, her accent is very much typical of New York) and this speaks volumes of what culture has had the greatest influence on her. Even her mannerisms are much more typical of Americans. She even describes herself as a New Yorker at roughly 2:25 minutes (you can scroll on the timeline at the bottom of the Youtube screen). She also describes her childhood and where she grew up (most of her childhood and adult life has been in the USA and this is no surprise, since its quite obvious from the way she acts and thinks)
What does this have to do with anything? If you had read the article from the Miami Herald I posted, you would have clearly seen that there are people in the Dominican Republic who think the mentality there is F-ed up. So it's not surprising that someone who's lived in the United States and has a better grasp of the debilitating psychological effects of colonialism and racism would understand that. It's no different from Ken Fraser and his doll experiment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
This is what I mean when I say that some people have a hard time putting aside their American cultural filters.
What are you talking about? You really don't know the first thing about me and any literate person can see that the name BajanYankee implies some type of non-American connection. There is no place on earth where "white" means lazy, dumb and incompetent and "black" means smart, civilized, and competent. These are stereotypes that exist well beyond the borders of the United States, and to say otherwise displays your lack of travel, ignorance of history or exposure to other world cultures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
I have been to their museums and they dedicate a lot of space to their African ancestry, as much as anything else and nothing seems sugar coated or hidden. I also have had the opportunity to view some of the history textbooks that they use in public schools there, and there are chapters dedicated to the African influence. I think you are confusing the Dominican Republic of some other times.
Are you serious? Did you not read this?

Quote:
As black intellectuals here try to muster a movement to embrace the nation's African roots, they acknowledge that it has been a mostly fruitless cause.
How does your experience going to a museum and skimming a textbook compare to the experiences of scholars and policymakers who have lived in the DR their whole lives?
[LEFT]
Read more here: MiamiHerald.com | Afro-Latin Americans[/LEFT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
This is proof to me that you have some trouble seeing things without the US filter. I know how that feels, I've been there and done that. It takes a while to see things through other perspectives. To say that its not as different from the US system is the equivalent of saying that you don't fully understand the Caribbean classification system.
Or maybe it's proof you don't know as much about the Caribbean as you think you do by going on vacations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
Trying to be honest about this requires understanding other perspectives from their point of view and not so much imposing our cultural filters to their and then claiming that there is not much difference. There is a very wide difference between the way race is treated in the US vs pretty much, everywhere else.
Hmm...nope, not really. I mean, if you want to believe that and all, that's fine. But you should do more research on blacks in the Caribbean before you go spouting off opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
I can tell from your screename that you probably have some connection to Barbados (I think Bajan is tied to that island in some way), but its rather evident that either you have grown up in the USA or have been greatly influenced by the USA. There is simply no way that a Caribbean person would not see the differences between the USA and the Caribbean regarding this issue.
Well, the bolded pretty much tells me that you're not West Indian. Who doesn't know that? Quick...do you know who Milo is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
I mean, if I, as an American, have been able to fully understand this, although after much introspect and with much trouble leaving my American filter behind; then someone from the Caribbean should be natural at getting this.
Again, you should go spend some more time in the Caribbean. Maybe take some courses at UWI Cave Hill or something. At the very least, you can go on www.IslandMix.com and read the 700 threads on this topic that already exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
In my experience, this is not true. People may consider mixed race individuals as one thing, but the moment you tell them what you are, most people respect that.
Well, of course, if you tell someone that you're bi-racial, they're not going to call you otherwise. But that has nothing to do with first impressions. People look at you and make a judgment about what you are.
 
Old 01-07-2013, 01:39 PM
 
350 posts, read 588,519 times
Reputation: 409
Here's some examples of good articles to give you perspectives of people who live in the Caribbean (Trinidad to be specific). You are correct about it not all being some racial paradise...but trying to frame it in terms of the American lens makes no sense.
But You Not Even White! Prejudice and Light-skinned West Indians - Outlish Magazine A white Trinidadian's experience

Being Chocolate: Are Darkies Still Less Accepted? - Outlish Magazine A dark skinned girl's experience (note she does not equate any discrimation she faces with racism but with colourism. Black in this article refers to dark skin not race.)
 
Old 01-07-2013, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Boston
701 posts, read 1,271,509 times
Reputation: 1021
Antonio84: Personally, I would classify Zoe Saldana as "Negra" like me and the first women you post under "white" as "mulatto".
 
Old 01-07-2013, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
It was your post that mentioned England.
Okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
Further, if you have to state "may" then that is because the one drop rule does exist to an extent.
There is no one drop rule in England as far as there being an official policy of classifying someone with any iota of African ancestry as "black" no matter what. But in an informal sense, yes, there is a "one drop rule" insofar as people with African ancestry will be considered "black," which is not any different from America. That was my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
Honestly, does it matter even if Dominican did? Western perceptions of identity are generally backward anyway. Be fair though. Plenty Dominicans are mixed and overall, they are a mixed people. They do not need to call themselves "black." In fact, no one should feel obligated to define themselves by color when that really says nothing about who you really are.
Again...why avoid the basic point? Why would someone be willing to admit to their Spanish and likely non-existent Taino roots but not be willing to admit to their African roots? I mean, is it your belief that few Dominincans have African heritage?
 
Old 01-07-2013, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by thewitchisback View Post
Here's some examples of good articles to give you perspectives of people who live in the Caribbean (Trinidad to be specific). You are correct about it not all being some racial paradise...but trying to frame it in terms of the American lens makes no sense.
But You Not Even White! Prejudice and Light-skinned West Indians - Outlish Magazine A white Trinidadian's experience

Being Chocolate: Are Darkies Still Less Accepted? - Outlish Magazine A dark skinned girl's experience (note she does not equate any discrimation she faces with racism but with colourism. Black in this article refers to dark skin not race.)
Do you even know what point you're trying to make? Seriously. I'm willing to bet you don't even know what your point is.

In TNT, a dougla, which is by far the most common product of IR relationships in Trini, will be considered just that: a person of mixed black and Indian descent.

In the US, a person of black and Indian descent will be considered "bi-racial." If one of your parents is Indian, and the other is black, nobody's going to call you "black." They are going to say you are "bi-racial." This is absolutely no different from TNT.

Whites in both countries will judge you by how you look, and if you are technically a bi-racial person who looks like any light-skinned black person, you will be called "black." If you look like you're mixed, you will be called mixed. In fact, it's not only the whites who will do that. Others in TNT will call you dougla if you look like one and blacks in the U.S. will call you "mixed" if you look like you're mixed. Simple concept, really.

The biggest difference between Trinidad and the U.S. is that there's more racial mixing in general. There's a higher percentage of people who have someone of a completely different race in their family. But that's not the same as having a radically different concept of race. That just means that Trini has a higher proportion of mixed-race people.

A number of things hold to be true just as they do in the United States:

1. White is superior
2. Indian is superior to black
3. Wavy hair is preferable to kinky hair
4. Light skin is preferable to dark skin

That is the same dynamic that exists whether you're in New York, Mandeville, Johannesburg or Paris.

And you're also applying a dynamic that exists primarily in Trinidad that does not apply even in Tobago, Barbados, Jamaica, St. Kitts, St. Lucia, etc.
 
Old 01-07-2013, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
Reputation: 11726
These are people who would are considered either mixed race or black both in the States and Barbados/Trini.

Mixed in Bim. Mixed in the States.

baje_jouvert_2008-168

Mixed

baje_jouvert_2008-010

Mixed

kadooment_day_2008_pt1-192

Mixed

kadooment_day_2008_pt1-161

Mixed

baje_jouvert_2008-017

Black

baje_jouvert_2008-064

Black

baje_jouvert_2008-123

Mixed

baje_jouvert_2008-143

Mixed

kadooment_day_2008_pt1-205

Black

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Z_ZDF1kCtw...Acropped11.jpg

There's no different concept of race. There are just more mixed people. These people are designated the same whether they're in America, England or the Caribbean.
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