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View Poll Results: How do you view Dominicans?
Strictly Latin American. 40 33.61%
Afro-Latino 65 54.62%
Strictly Afro-Caribbean. 14 11.76%
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-07-2013, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,567 posts, read 2,432,116 times
Reputation: 2742

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Okay. There is no one drop rule in England as far as there being an official policy of classifying someone with any iota of African ancestry as "black" no matter what. But in an informal sense, yes, there is a "one drop rule" insofar as people with African ancestry will be considered "black," which is not any different from America. That was my point.

Again...why avoid the basic point? Why would someone be willing to admit to their Spanish and likely non-existent Taino roots but not be willing to admit to their African roots? I mean, is it your belief that few Dominincans have African heritage?
I agree with you in terms of the informal one drop rule in both the UK and the US, and it is sad.

What is your basic point regarding Dominicans? Plenty Dominicans acknowledge their Spanish AND African (& Taino) heritages. It is just that they don't feel the need to choose one over the other based on their appearances. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that. That is not to say that many Dominicans may have issue with their African heritage but the truth is that there are people like that in cultures across the Americas. It doesn't matter whether others may call themselves "black" when they exercise them same color preferences as a person that doesn't. The core problems are the same.

 
Old 01-07-2013, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,567 posts, read 2,432,116 times
Reputation: 2742
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Do you even know what point you're trying to make? Seriously. I'm willing to bet you don't even know what your point is.

In TNT, a dougla, which is by far the most common product of IR relationships in Trini, will be considered just that: a person of mixed black and Indian descent.

In the US, a person of black and Indian descent will be considered "bi-racial." If one of your parents is Indian, and the other is black, nobody's going to call you "black." They are going to say you are "bi-racial." This is absolutely no different from TNT.

Whites in both countries will judge you by how you look, and if you are technically a bi-racial person who looks like any light-skinned black person, you will be called "black." If you look like you're mixed, you will be called mixed. In fact, it's not only the whites who will do that. Others in TNT will call you dougla if you look like one and blacks in the U.S. will call you "mixed" if you look like you're mixed. Simple concept, really.

The biggest difference between Trinidad and the U.S. is that there's more racial mixing in general. There's a higher percentage of people who have someone of a completely different race in their family. But that's not the same as having a radically different concept of race. That just means that Trini has a higher proportion of mixed-race people.

A number of things hold to be true just as they do in the United States:

1. White is superior
2. Indian is superior to black
3. Wavy hair is preferable to kinky hair
4. Light skin is preferable to dark skin

That is the same dynamic that exists whether you're in New York, Mandeville, Johannesburg or Paris.

And you're also applying a dynamic that exists primarily in Trinidad that does not apply even in Tobago, Barbados, Jamaica, St. Kitts, St. Lucia, etc.
Nuff people who are mixed in T&T may be seen as only "black" in the States due to darker color. In Spanish-speaking nations, it would likely be the same because they are more color-oriented. People are used to more than just "white/black" in T&T which makes a difference in perceptions as well. Plus, when people know your family in Trinidad, they will refer to you accordingly. Name may also indicate heritage where appearance may not and people will view you accordingly. It just depends. Race in the U.S. and T&T can and often does differ.

Last edited by ReineDeCoeur; 01-07-2013 at 06:48 PM..
 
Old 01-08-2013, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
What is your basic point regarding Dominicans? Plenty Dominicans acknowledge their Spanish AND African (& Taino) heritages. It is just that they don't feel the need to choose one over the other based on their appearances. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that. That is not to say that many Dominicans may have issue with their African heritage but the truth is that there are people like that in cultures across the Americas. It doesn't matter whether others may call themselves "black" when they exercise them same color preferences as a person that doesn't. The core problems are the same.
My whole point is that they don't acknowledge their African heritage (or go to great lengths to minimize it). This is not something I'm just making up or generalizations I'm making based on experiences with two or three people. There's been a lot written on the subject.

MiamiHerald.com | Afro-Latin Americans

Behind Closed Doors: 'Colorism' in the Caribbean : NPR

I mean, you can view it as coming up with unique racial identifiers if you want, or think that people in the DR have a radically different concept of "blackness" than people in the U.S., but most people see it exactly for what it is: self-hatred. When you clearly have African heritage, you for damned sure have NO Taino heritage (if you had read the first link you know why this is the case), but yet you profess to be "Indian" rather than black, you've got issues.
 
Old 01-08-2013, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
Nuff people who are mixed in T&T may be seen as only "black" in the States due to darker color.
Not by black people or other minorities in the States. Most black people would easily notice a different hair texture or facial structure and ask, "What are you?" Some whites in the United States would notice and others wouldn't. Some whites in Trinidad would notice and others wouldn't though it's a bit more likely they'd notice in Trini because there are more mixed-race people. But again, the presence of mixed-race people does not mean there's some different concept of race in Trinidad. It just means there are more mixed-race people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
In Spanish-speaking nations, it would likely be the same because they are more color-oriented.
In the DR, even many of the darkest Africans would call themselves black. This is not a "radically different concept of race." It's denial.

Quote:
I would say it's a complete denial. I would say that the majority of the black people - particularly in the Dominican Republic - don't consider themselves black. And I'm talking - not people who look like Hispanic but could be considered black. I'm saying people who are in the United States would be an African-American like any one else. They just don't see that in themselves.
Quote:
Plus, when people know your family in Trinidad, they will refer to you accordingly.
And you think they don't do that in America? People tend to call a child that's the product of a black parent and an Indian parent...wait for it....BI-RACIAL. That's nothing new LOL.

Quote:
Name may also indicate heritage where appearance may not and people will view you accordingly.
So if a brown-skinned, wavy haired girl walks into a classroom in Charlotte, NC and says her name is Kerry Ann Chang-Ramlochansingh, you think the average person would have absolutely no idea that she just might be multi-racial?

Quote:
Race in the U.S. and T&T can and often does differ.
And you've failed to explain to me, someone who's the product of a West Indian interracial relationship, how it's different.
 
Old 01-09-2013, 05:40 AM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 15 days ago)
 
5,183 posts, read 8,027,180 times
Reputation: 4269
Just for the record, I have given up on discussing this topic with BajanYankee. The guy (or gal) simply doesn't get it, evidenced not only by my arguments but also those of the other two posters here that are actually from various islands in the Caribbean and have corroborated what I have said. There is simply no point in taking this debate further since all we will do is go in circles, on one side trying to explain how things actually work in the Caribbean and on the other side attempting to impose a US vision of the region and then assuming the results of that reflects Caribbean reality.
 
Old 01-09-2013, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,567 posts, read 2,432,116 times
Reputation: 2742
Wow...this discussion seems quite serious for you BajanYankee, particularly as it pertains to Dominican self-identification. I'll try to respond when I have a bit more time.
 
Old 01-09-2013, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
Just for the record, I have given up on discussing this topic with BajanYankee. The guy (or gal) simply doesn't get it, evidenced not only by my arguments but also those of the other two posters here that are actually from various islands in the Caribbean and have corroborated what I have said. There is simply no point in taking this debate further since all we will do is go in circles, on one side trying to explain how things actually work in the Caribbean and on the other side attempting to impose a US vision of the region and then assuming the results of that reflects Caribbean reality.
Have you ever lived in the Caribbean? I just find it comical that someone who says he's been on vacation in the Caribbean a few times can somehow explain the social dynamics of the Caribbean. If you're not even sure that the term "Bajan" has some connection with the country of Barbados, then that's evidence enough that you don't really know much about the region.
 
Old 01-09-2013, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,567 posts, read 2,432,116 times
Reputation: 2742
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
My whole point is that they don't acknowledge their African heritage (or go to great lengths to minimize it). This is not something I'm just making up or generalizations I'm making based on experiences with two or three people. There's been a lot written on the subject.

MiamiHerald.com | Afro-Latin Americans

Behind Closed Doors: 'Colorism' in the Caribbean : NPR

I mean, you can view it as coming up with unique racial identifiers if you want, or think that people in the DR have a radically different concept of "blackness" than people in the U.S., but most people see it exactly for what it is: self-hatred. When you clearly have African heritage, you for damned sure have NO Taino heritage (if you had read the first link you know why this is the case), but yet you profess to be "Indian" rather than black, you've got issues.
I've seen these articles and am quite aware of people's perception of Dominicans and how they perceive themselves. Secondly, the U.S. is in no way the benchmark for proper identity, so let's leave that alone. This thread speaks about we perceive Dominicans and to me, they are are a mixed people, generally speaking. Are there Dominicans with identity issues? Yes. Just like there are people with the same all over.
 
Old 01-09-2013, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
I've seen these articles and am quite aware of people's perception of Dominicans and how they perceive themselves.
Then why make it seem like you were not aware of Dominicans denying their Africaness? I mean, even in your statement, you seem hesitant to state in actual words that Dominicans reject "blackness," and that this rejection of "blackness" plays a large role in their racial classifications. If we are going to state that Dominicans have a "different concept of race than the U.S.," then we should at least acknowledge that it stems from a deep-seated inferiority complex and a wholesale rejection of African heritage. It's not a product of social enlightenment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
Secondly, the U.S. is in no way the benchmark for proper identity, so let's leave that alone.
Who ever said that the U.S. was a benchmark for proper identity? The author of the article, who is from the Caribbean, wrote about people in the DR who deny that they have any African heritage whatsoever. You either have African heritage or you don't. How you're "perceived" by people in the U.S. or elsewhere has no bearing on that fact. And if you deny that you have African heritage when in fact you do, that means you're in denial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
This thread speaks about we perceive Dominicans and to me, they are are a mixed people, generally speaking.
Eh, okay. That's fine. But as a technical matter, you should see very few people as just "black" in the United States because most African Americans have some non-African lineage. They should be "mixed" in your eyes, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
Are there Dominicans with identity issues? Yes. Just like there are people with the same all over.
Not even the same. Most Jamaicans, Bajans or Trinis would state pretty clearly that they have African heritage if they indeed have it. That's not the case in the DR.
 
Old 01-09-2013, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,567 posts, read 2,432,116 times
Reputation: 2742
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Not by black people or other minorities in the States. Most black people would easily notice a different hair texture or facial structure and ask, "What are you?" Some whites in the United States would notice and others wouldn't. Some whites in Trinidad would notice and others wouldn't though it's a bit more likely they'd notice in Trini because there are more mixed-race people. But again, the presence of mixed-race people does not mean there's some different concept of race in Trinidad. It just means there are more mixed-race people.
Thank you for confirming that many mixed people of African descent may be perceived as "black" in the U.S due to different perceptions of race. The U.S. is made up of a "white" majority and then other minorities. Your post only address minorities because you are aware of how the "white" majority often perceived individuals of mixed African heritage. Thus why when looking at a file for a mixed Puerto Rican acquaintance, the organization had classified him as "black" alone. That is unlikely to occur in Trinidad because perceptions of people there are shaped by the diversity around them. Additionally, history has allowed for such identities there when it was often not so in the U.S. There are in fact similar AND differing perceptions.

Quote:
In the DR, even many of the darkest Africans would call themselves black. This is not a "radically different concept of race." It's denial.
There are issues with African heritage across the Americas and Caribbean, why do they need to call themselves "black?" Their ancestors in Africa identified by culture. Not saying that there is not denial heritage but they dont have to use that terms to acknowlege their African heritage.


Quote:
And you think they don't do that in America? People tend to call a child that's the product of a black parent and an Indian parent...wait for it....BI-RACIAL. That's nothing new LOL.

So if a brown-skinned, wavy haired girl walks into a classroom in Charlotte, NC and says her name is Kerry Ann Chang-Ramlochansingh, you think the average person would have absolutely no idea that she just might be multi-racial?

And you've failed to explain to me, someone who's the product of a West Indian interracial relationship, how it's different.
Mixed people look all different ways and don't all have names that indicate their heritage. If she was dark/brown with thick hair, broad features and was name Kerry Ann James, the outcome may be different but that doesnt change her heritage. So what there is a box for a mixed person now? Perceptions of race still do differ as confirmed above.

Dont get it confused. There is no attempt to explain anything to you , as your goal is to fight down the obvious due to your personal issues with Dominicans. I have my stance on the issue and you have yours.
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