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View Poll Results: How do you view Dominicans?
Strictly Latin American. 40 33.61%
Afro-Latino 65 54.62%
Strictly Afro-Caribbean. 14 11.76%
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-09-2013, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,558 posts, read 2,428,887 times
Reputation: 2739

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Then why make it seem like you were not aware of Dominicans denying their Africaness? I mean, even in your statement, you seem hesitant to state in actual words that Dominicans reject "blackness," and that this rejection of "blackness" plays a large role in their racial classifications. If we are going to state that Dominicans have a "different concept of race than the U.S.," then we should at least acknowledge that it stems from a deep-seated inferiority complex and a wholesale rejection of African heritage. It's not a product of social enlightenment.

Who ever said that the U.S. was a benchmark for proper identity? The author of the article, who is from the Caribbean, wrote about people in the DR who deny that they have any African heritage whatsoever. You either have African heritage or you don't. How you're "perceived" by people in the U.S. or elsewhere has no bearing on that fact. And if you deny that you have African heritage when in fact you do, that means you're in denial.

Eh, okay. That's fine. But as a technical matter, you should see very few people as just "black" in the United States because most African Americans have some non-African lineage. They should be "mixed" in your eyes, too.

Not even the same. Most Jamaicans, Bajans or Trinis would state pretty clearly that they have African heritage if they indeed have it. That's not the case in the DR.

You seem to have a personal gripe with Dominicans. Anyone who isn't ranting or raving about them having identity issues you accuse of denying any Dominicans have identity issues. Yes, the majority of African-Americans are mixed to some extent, some more than others. So if they chose to claim that, good for them.

 
Old 01-09-2013, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,258 posts, read 26,231,676 times
Reputation: 11716
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
Thank you for confirming that many mixed people of African descent may be perceived as "black" in the U.S due to different perceptions of race. The U.S. is made up of a "white" majority and then other minorities. Your post only address minorities because you are aware of how the "white" majority often perceived individuals of mixed African heritage. Thus why when looking at a file for a mixed Puerto Rican acquaintance, the organization had classified him as "black" alone. That is unlikely to occur in Trinidad because perceptions of people there are shaped by the diversity around them. Additionally, history has allowed for such identities there when it was often not so in the U.S. There are in fact similar AND differing perceptions.
Whites in Jamaica, Barbados and Trinidad will perceive mixed blacks the same way they do in the U.S. And for the most part, people on these islands have the same understanding of race as people in the U.S.

It's clear that you're not Jamaican or Bajan because you don't even pretend to be the least bit authoritative when it comes to these countries. Are you repping the Red, Black and White? If so, I find that hard to believe, as most "black" Trinidadians view themselves as the same "black" as African Americans and have a larger global perspective of "blackness." You're not going to find too many pitch black Trinidadians calling themselves Taino.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
There are issues with African heritage across the Americas and Caribbean, why do they need to call themselves "black?" Their ancestors in Africa identified by culture. Not saying that there is not denial heritage but they dont have to use that terms to acknowlege their African heritage.
Who said anything about using the actual term "black?" I've said that there's a reluctance in the DR to acknowledge African heritage and the rejection of the label "black" is a direct consequence of the desire not to be associated with anything African. They could call themselves "negro," "colored," or "jambalaya" for all I care. It's just a label. The fundamental issue is that there's a certain shame associated with African descent in the DR. And that shame creates a resistance to the term "black," "negro" or anything else associated with Africa (and the creation of silly classifications that have no foundation in reality). And that's a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
Mixed people look all different ways and don't all have names that indicate their heritage.
You said that mixed people often have names that would give away their mixed heritage. As if people in the United States would not be able to pick up on the fact that "Chang" is an uncommon name for an African American. Here is what you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
Name may also indicate heritage where appearance may not and people will view you accordingly.
So what sense does it make to then come back and say that not "all have names that indicate their heritage?" This is what I mean when I say that you really don't know what you're trying to argue. You really have no point at all right now except for cutting the slices of your "argument" ever thinner, thinner and thinner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
If she was dark/brown with thick hair, broad features and was name Kerry Ann James, the outcome may be different but that doesnt change her heritage. So what there is a box for a mixed person now? Perceptions of race still do differ as confirmed above.
Huh? Let's revisit your whole post for the complete context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
People are used to more than just "white/black" in T&T which makes a difference in perceptions as well. Plus, when people know your family in Trinidad, they will refer to you accordingly. Name may also indicate heritage where appearance may not and people will view you accordingly. It just depends. Race in the U.S. and T&T can and often does differ.
Clearly, we are talking about perceptions of race here. Obviously, if a person has no features to indicate that they're mixed race, then no one in Trini or the U.S. is going to assume that they are mixed race. That's common sense. Saying that the perception "doesn't change her heritage" is a complete red herring.


Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
Dont get it confused. There is no attempt to explain anything to you , as your goal is to fight down the obvious due to your personal issues with Dominicans. I have my stance on the issue and you have yours.
Right.

You never answered my question, btw. Do you consider African Americans to be "mixed" just as you do Dominicans?

Last edited by BajanYankee; 01-09-2013 at 12:27 PM..
 
Old 01-09-2013, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,258 posts, read 26,231,676 times
Reputation: 11716
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
You seem to have a personal gripe with Dominicans. Anyone who isn't ranting or raving about them having identity issues you accuse of denying any Dominicans have identity issues. Yes, the majority of African-Americans are mixed to some extent, some more than others. So if they chose to claim that, good for them.
Of course, this is what you say when your argument becomes contradictory and completely untenable. First, you argued that the concept of race was completely different in the greater Caribbean (i.e., Jamaica, Trinidad and Barbados) than it is in the U.S., which is obviously not true, particularly in light of the fact that the U.S. and many W.I. countries were ruled by the British Crown. Second, you argued that Dominicans don't have to label themselves as "black," which is true, but wholly unrelated to the fact there's an unwillingness in the DR to acknowledge African ancestry. But instead of acknowledging that that's a major problem that's not seen in most other parts of the world, you attempt to minimize and explain it away by pointing out that "everywhere has racial issues." As if there are millions of Bernie Mac lookalikes in the United States claiming Cherokee heritage to the exclusion of African heritage. There's a whole different level of "backwardness" when it comes to racial identity in the Dominican Republic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
Western perceptions of identity are generally backward anyway.
Right.
 
Old 01-09-2013, 12:24 PM
 
350 posts, read 588,392 times
Reputation: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
It's clear that you're not Jamaican or Bajan because you don't even pretend to be the least bit authoritative when it comes to these countries. Are you repping the Red, Black and White? If so, I find that hard to believe, as most "black" Trinidadians view themselves as the same "black" as African Americans and have a larger global perspective of "blackness." You're not going to find too many pitch black Trinidadians calling themselves Taino.


Care to enlighten about the larger global perspective of "blackness"? Does it simply mean acknowledging African ancestry?
 
Old 01-09-2013, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,258 posts, read 26,231,676 times
Reputation: 11716
Quote:
Originally Posted by thewitchisback View Post
Care to enlighten about the larger global perspective of "blackness"? Does it simply mean acknowledging African ancestry?
In Jamaica, Ghana, South Africa and the U.S., I think there's an understanding that people of African ancestry have a common heritage (and some sense of a shared destiny), even if the cultures they were raised in are fundamentally different. There's a notion that "Africaness" is a common thread that unites the Diaspora.

People like Aimé Césaire, Franz Fanon, Steve Biko and Julius Nyerere provide a good example of this.
 
Old 01-10-2013, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,558 posts, read 2,428,887 times
Reputation: 2739
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Whites in Jamaica, Barbados and Trinidad will perceive mixed blacks the same way they do in the U.S. And for the most part, people on these islands have the same understanding of race as people in the U.S.

It's clear that you're not Jamaican or Bajan because you don't even pretend to be the least bit authoritative when it comes to these countries. Are you repping the Red, Black and White? If so, I find that hard to believe, as most "black" Trinidadians view themselves as the same "black" as African Americans and have a larger global perspective of "blackness." You're not going to find too many pitch black Trinidadians calling themselves Taino.

Who said anything about using the actual term "black?" I've said that there's a reluctance in the DR to acknowledge African heritage and the rejection of the label "black" is a direct consequence of the desire not to be associated with anything African. They could call themselves "negro," "colored," or "jambalaya" for all I care. It's just a label. The fundamental issue is that there's a certain shame associated with African descent in the DR. And that shame creates a resistance to the term "black," "negro" or anything else associated with Africa (and the creation of silly classifications that have no foundation in reality). And that's a problem.
Please refer back to you posts. Dominicans do not have to use the term "black" to describe themselves or to acknowledge African heritage. Again, perceptions of race in the Caribbean differ in my experience. Considering that is my background and that I have lived in the region, you are not going to convince me otherwise. You're trying to hard to isolate Dominicans and for that reason, you refuse to acknowledge the varying perspectives of people across the Caribbean. So suit yourself.

Quote:
You said that mixed people often have names that would give away their mixed heritage. As if people in the United States would not be able to pick up on the fact that "Chang" is an uncommon name for an African American. Here is what you said:

So what sense does it make to then come back and say that not "all have names that indicate their heritage?" This is what I mean when I say that you really don't know what you're trying to argue. You really have no point at all right now except for cutting the slices of your "argument" ever thinner, thinner and thinner.
Try again. My post said that mixed people MAY have names that indicate mixed heritage. Don't you understand the meaning of the word "MAY?" It means that some do and some dont. Why are you so angry? You are so intent in painting Dominicans in a bad light that you making up statements and attributing them to other posters.



Quote:
Huh? Let's revisit our whole post for the complete context.

Clearly, we are talking about perceptions of race here. Obviously, if a person has no features to indicate that they're mixed race, then no one in Trini or the U.S. is going to assume that they are mixed race. That's common sense. Saying that the perception "doesn't change her heritage" is a complete red herring.

Right.

You never answered my question, btw. Do you consider African Americans to be "mixed" just as you do Dominicans?
The whole point is that perceptions vary. Since plenty people in Trinidad and U.S. have differing ideas about race, there is no way to state that all will view someone the same way. Regardless, let Dominicans identify how they please.

Your question was whether in perceived AA as a mixed people in general and not compared to Dominicans. The answer to your question is "I have no idea." I tend to respect people choice in identification and leave it be.
 
Old 01-11-2013, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,558 posts, read 2,428,887 times
Reputation: 2739
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Oy vey. This is like talking to a wall.

Bajan: Dominicans do not have to call themselves "black." But they refuse to acknowledge their African ancestry.

Caribdoll: Stop saying they have to call themselves "black!"

Bajan: I just said they don't have to call themselves "black."

Carib: There! You just said it. You think Dominicans have to call themselves "black." They can identify however they want!

And around and round we go. You can call yourself "turtle" if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you're a human being (you are, right? Just making sure).

So basically, you have no point to make here. As I said before, these slices keep getting thinner and thinner. They've basically carmelized.

Your whole point was that the names of mixed-race people may (hehe) give away their heritage in Trinidad. Well, the names of mixed-race people may give away their heritage in America, too. Nobody ever said anything about someone's name always giving their heritage away 100% of the time. You're being beyond ridiculous here and backpedaling because you see how foolish an argument you've been making all along.

What did I make up? I quoted you.

I obviously have no control over how anyone self-identifies. But in the case of Dominicans, most are like, "Please, call me anything but black. I'll accept mixed, white, Taino, cockroach or brillo pad, but please, please, never negro, colored, black or any other term that denotes African heritage."
The above commentary makes no sense. All of the twisting and turning that you've attempted with other posters' words including mine doesn't change what I have been saying all along - that racial perspectives differ when it comes to the U.S. and Caribbean islands. If they didn't, we would not be having this conversion. You saying one thing and multiple people saying the opposite. Either way, you have spend half of this thread attacking Dominicans that exist to a significant degree across the Americas & the Caribbean but take different forms. Just answer the OP and leave Dominicans be.
 
Old 04-10-2013, 04:01 PM
 
33 posts, read 79,998 times
Reputation: 25
The think what separates African Americans from all afro-descentant groups, including Africans, was the black consciousness and black power movements that were part of the Civil Rights Movement.

This create a high level of black racial awareness, that we really don't see anywhere in the world - you should remember that Africans are mostly tribal-centric and don't strongly identify along the black/white divide.

My family is from the Caribbean and I can tell you honestly that Caribbeans are not racially proud to the same degree as AA. And imo, due to social conditioning, afro-latinos are anti-black. And adopt what I would call the anti-One Drop Rule. Where any amount of non-black admixture takes you outta the 'black' category.

Afro-latinas tend to run from their blackness, and will often take offense if you call them 'black', even if they as black as anyone else.

So when Afro-latinos migrate to the states they hit with a completely different racial perspective that takes some time for them to adjust to. But I'd have to believe at least some afro-latinos must enjoy the domination of black culture in the states.
 
Old 04-10-2013, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,811 posts, read 4,436,210 times
Reputation: 3257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas0x01 View Post
And imo, due to social conditioning, afro-latinos are anti-black. And adopt what I would call the anti-One Drop Rule. Where any amount of non-black admixture takes you outta the 'black' category.

Afro-latinas tend to run from their blackness, and will often take offense if you call them 'black', even if they as black as anyone else.

So when Afro-latinos migrate to the states they hit with a completely different racial perspective that takes some time for them to adjust to. But I'd have to believe at least some afro-latinos must enjoy the domination of black culture in the states.
Afro Latinos are anti black? Thats nonsense are you really going to tell me afro-cubans, afro-colombians and garifunas etc etc are anti-black? Thats bull****, afro-latinos are WAY more intouch with their african roots then African Americans. The english slave masters tried everything to erase their african roots from their slave, where the spanish didn't care and let them keep many aspect of their culture.....You tlak about the one drop rule. Well Latinos are actually more acurate and realistic about racial identity...... if your 25% black your not really black.....Only North America do we see people think like that, OH your great great grandmother was black, that means your black too period! thats nonsense.
 
Old 04-10-2013, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,558 posts, read 2,428,887 times
Reputation: 2739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas0x01 View Post
The think what separates African Americans from all afro-descentant groups, including Africans, was the black consciousness and black power movements that were part of the Civil Rights Movement.

This create a high level of black racial awareness, that we really don't see anywhere in the world - you should remember that Africans are mostly tribal-centric and don't strongly identify along the black/white divide.

My family is from the Caribbean and I can tell you honestly that Caribbeans are not racially proud to the same degree as AA. And imo, due to social conditioning, afro-latinos are anti-black. And adopt what I would call the anti-One Drop Rule. Where any amount of non-black admixture takes you outta the 'black' category.

Afro-latinas tend to run from their blackness, and will often take offense if you call them 'black', even if they as black as anyone else.

So when Afro-latinos migrate to the states they hit with a completely different racial perspective that takes some time for them to adjust to. But I'd have to believe at least some afro-latinos must enjoy the domination of black culture in the states.
Since when?

Pan-Africanism came from Caribbean people and involved African greats like Kwame Nkrumah. The Civil Rights Movement was not the only movement involved people of African origin.

Negritude was born out of the minds of Caribbean and African peoples...

The one-drop rule is backwards...it has nothing to do with pride. It originated with racist whites and treats African heritage like a stain that contaminates any and everything else.

Additionally, the idea that diverse peoples are all "the same" based on color is backwards and originated with racist Europeans. They had not respect for the cultures, languages, names of African peoples...the majority of which were lost by those who were victims of chattel slavery. Africans and African peoples are culturally diverse and should not be consumed with color (black/white).

At least in Latin America and the Caribbean, generally speaking, one can embrace both their African and other heritage.
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