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Old 12-21-2011, 01:27 PM
 
6,349 posts, read 8,395,274 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalaMan View Post
Here in Ceara we also often use "tu" instead of "vocÍ".

In the plural, we use "vocÍs", but in the singular we only use "vocÍ" with people that we don't know. With people that we already know, we use "tu".

We often use the "wrong" verb form with "tu". We should use the "second person", but we often use the "third person", that should be used only with "vocÍ".

Examples:

"Tu gostas" - Right.

"VocÍ gosta" - Right.

"Tu gosta" - WRONG. But we use it anyway here in Ceara! We just can't write that way, but in oral language we use "tu gosta" all the time!
I have never heard anyone in Brazil use the 2nd person tense. I personally like the way they ignore it since I dont have to memorize the conjugation of the verbs.

All of Brazil uses the 3rd person conjugation to refer to the 2nd person. I wonder if this also occurs in Portugal.
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Old 12-21-2011, 01:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
I have never heard anyone in Brazil use the 2nd person tense. I personally like the way they ignore it since I dont have to memorize the conjugation of the verbs.

All of Brazil uses the 3rd person conjugation to refer to the 2nd person. I wonder if this also occurs in Portugal.
Yes. "VocÍ" is a contraction of "Vossa mercÍ" ("Your Grace")
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Old 12-21-2011, 01:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geography Freak View Post
Yes. "VocÍ" is a contraction of "Vossa mercÍ" ("Your Grace")
Interesting. I know Voce is brazilian as the portuguese prefer tu. You know any articles on the history of how the 2nd tense was replaced by the 3rd?
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:01 PM
 
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If you mean how "voce" became third person, it's always been, since "Your Grace" is third person (try to say "Your grace are"). If you mean how people in some Brazilian states got to use the third person with "tu", I suppose it's contamination from "Voce".
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,572 posts, read 4,656,135 times
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"VocÍ" is a contraction of the arcaic form "Vossa MercÍ", that means "Your Mercy" (like in "I am at your mercy").

It's was a "treatment pronoun", just like "Your Majesty" for kings, and "Your Honour" for judges.

All the "treatment pronouns" in Portuguese require the 3rd person verbs.

So this is why "vocÍ" requires the verb in the 3rd person.

The "path" of contraction:

"Vossa MercÍ" ----> "VoismicÍ" (used until around 100 years ago, in 1911) -----> "VocÍ" -----> "CÍ" (informal use only)
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geography Freak View Post
If you mean how "voce" became third person, it's always been, since "Your Grace" is third person (try to say "Your grace are"). If you mean how people in some Brazilian states got to use the third person with "tu", I suppose it's contamination from "Voce".
Exactly. The use of the 3rd person verbs together with "Tu" is a "contamination" from "VocÍ".

Since people use "VocÍ" with the 3rd person verbs, people start to use "Tu" with the verbs in the 3rd person too.

The verbs in the 2nd person are usually the same as in the 3rd person, with an "S" added in the end:

gosta - gostas
vai - vais
come - comes
ama - amas
joga - jogas

So, it's phonetically "easier" to speak the 3rd person than the 2nd person, because it has one less letter.

Gramatically it's wrong to write "Tu gosta". It can't be done in formal texts, But in day-by-day oral language, this is "the rule".

Last edited by MalaMan; 12-21-2011 at 02:38 PM..
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:22 PM
 
1,487 posts, read 2,055,755 times
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A great thread just full of information. I seems to me that the forms mentioned here are very much like the Andalusian dialect in Spain where sounds are elided (I think that's the word) or fused and where sounds change radically to the ear of those not familiar with the "dialect". like

ondesta for donde estas
Ch becomes sh so Chico becomes Shico
and so on.
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Old 09-14-2015, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,572 posts, read 4,656,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom9 View Post
A great thread just full of information. I seems to me that the forms mentioned here are very much like the Andalusian dialect in Spain where sounds are elided (I think that's the word) or fused and where sounds change radically to the ear of those not familiar with the "dialect". like

ondesta for donde estas
Ch becomes sh so Chico becomes Shico
and so on.
exactly, those are cases of elision
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Old 09-18-2015, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,292,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
In Rio Do Grande do Sul they say "tu" instead of "voce" to say "you." Also in the south they use the word "tri" to mean very, so to say very cool you would say "trilegal."

In the south they also shorten estou and esta to "to", "ta." In SP they can say "ce" instead of "voce."
Those are not accents. Accents are when people pronounce exactly the same word, but the phonemes (usually vowels) have a slightly different value, or drift through different diphthongs, and the language is spoken with a different cadence or rhythm. In American English, there are very, very few words that are different from one region to another, such as "y'all", the southern second person plural pronoun, which is the same as the singular in the rest of the country. That's a dialectal difference, not an accent.

The Brazilian example above of /ss/ being pronounced more often as /sh/ in some places is an accent.
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Old 09-19-2015, 01:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalaMan View Post
YES!!

You can bet on that!!!

Brazil has a wide variety of regional accents!!!!

We use to make fun of the accents of the other states!

And not only the accents, but also the regional slangs!

Some accents are so "different" that we use to joke calling them "languages". For example, I am from the state of Ceara, and we often make jokes calling the accent from here as "CearÍs" (as opposed to "PortuguÍs" - Portuguese in Portuguese).

There are even CearÍs - PortuguÍs "dictionaries"!! (obviously they are jokes, not serious dictionaries )
Brazilians are very, very regionalistic. I have friends from Ceara, Curitiba, Sao Paulo, RGDS, Minas Gerais, and when we get together, they are always making fun of each other, I can't keep up.
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