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Old 07-01-2014, 03:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
So this says that under 60% are "white". Some of these no doubt being light skinned mulattos with sufficient status to be accepted as white.

Whats your point, because if it is to imply that Cuba is a European island it isn't working. You will point out that significant 20th C migration from Spain, and ignore that about 100,000 blacks also immigrated from other parts of the Caribbean. You will also ignore the fact that the vast majority of these fleeing Cuba after Castro were among the whitest people on the island.

Cuba is an Afro Iberian society and any attempts to say otherwise will be very misleading. Not only are the majority of Cubans now of mixed ancestry, but Cuba's culture represents a fusion of its Iberian and its West/West Central African heritages.

BTW there were many freed blacks in Cuba. The cabildos were often organized around African ethnic groups, this encouraged by the Spanish who wished these freed blacks to maintain an ethnic rather than a racial identity, to ensure that they remained divided.
Also, does the other stuff matter if the African influence is equally strong? I think the social aspect is just as important and can't be denied in terms of Cuba.

As for Brazilians, look at Cape Verdeans in terms of similarities. Cape Verde being just off the west coast of Africa has a very strong African influence, of course, as it is a part of the continent.

 
Old 07-01-2014, 03:51 PM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 12 days ago)
 
5,169 posts, read 8,019,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Also, does the other stuff matter if the African influence is equally strong? I think the social aspect is just as important and can't be denied in terms of Cuba.
The social aspect is the most important part of any society, but here there is a focus on the genetics because people in this forum love to talk about that. I do put in question, though, that the African influence in Cuba is just as strong as the Spanish. It sure doesn't seems like it in Cuba or anywhere else that evolved from the Kingdom of Spain.

The exception is probably Equatorial Guinea and the reason is not just because its in Sub-Saharan Africa, but also because the Spanish culture didn't penetrate the entire society. Equatorial Guinea's culture resembles that of other African countries where a minority of the population is truly westernized while the bulk is still essentially African in culture, including having African languages as their mother tongue and the official European language as a second language that they learn in school and only use in official settings. The Philippines is probably the only other former Spanish province that is similar to Equatorial Guinea, but even there it depends on the island. That's not the case anywhere else in the Spanish-speaking world. It also happens to be the case that Equatorial Guinea and the Philippines are some of the least mixed populations that evolved from Spain. In other words, in most other countries that evolved from Spain, most of the population has an actual genetic connection to Spain and, in a way, this impacts how pervasive Spanish culture has been in any given society. Turns out that the countries with the least amount of Spanish blood, which in effect is absent in most of their populations (EG and Philippines) are also the least Hispanic of all the Hispanic countries in existence! I personally don't think that is coincidental.

Some people here think that saying something like this is denying the African input, which is a train of thought that I don't fully understand. If anything, sometimes I get the impression that some forumers want to make the African input much bigger than it really is. Look what's happening in the thread about (or at least its suppose to be about) white Haitians. Caribny wants to tell the Haitians that they are culturally more African than they want to admit while the Haitians, those from the inside, are saying just how much African culture exists in Haiti, but that its not as much as Caribny wants it to be. I don't think this is purely coincidental.

This is the reason I think some people want to discredit what the DNA ancestry tests are revealing about a few places.

Last edited by AntonioR; 07-01-2014 at 04:03 PM..
 
Old 07-02-2014, 04:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
My point is that the DNA ancestry study that I cited before is correct about Cuba. Most of the genes in Cubans are of European origin and that racial segregation been imposed as in the USA, most of the population there would had been white because even among the mulattoes the European genetic input is a majority. That's what some here have been trying to deny, despite the evidence.

The DNA ancestry study that I cited before was done last year.


I do not automatically accept these DNA ancestry studies in nations which are as diverse as Cuba, the DR, or even PR. Are their controls to take into account that upper middle class people have a who different ancestral profile from the poor? As well as for regional differences? Are these weighted?


In any case one's DNA ancestry only provides an indicator as to what one looks like. Corey Booker and Barack Obama go to the English speaking Caribbean, or maybe Haiti. Corey is definitely a mulatto, and will be assumed to be from the old mulatto elites. Obama is a light skinned black man. Same ancestral mix.
 
Old 07-02-2014, 04:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
The social aspect is the most important part of any society, but here there is a focus on the genetics because people in this forum love to talk about that. I do put in question, though, that the African influence in Cuba is just as strong as the Spanish. It sure doesn't seems like it in Cuba or anywhere else that evolved from the Kingdom of Spain.

The exception is probably Equatorial Guinea and the reason is not just because its in Sub-Saharan Africa, but also because the Spanish culture didn't penetrate the entire society. Equatorial Guinea's culture resembles that of other African countries where a minority of the population is truly westernized while the bulk is still essentially African in culture, including having African languages as their mother tongue and the official European language as a second language that they learn in school and only use in official settings. The Philippines is probably the only other former Spanish province that is similar to Equatorial Guinea, but even there it depends on the island. That's not the case anywhere else in the Spanish-speaking world. It also happens to be the case that Equatorial Guinea and the Philippines are some of the least mixed populations that evolved from Spain. In other words, in most other countries that evolved from Spain, most of the population has an actual genetic connection to Spain and, in a way, this impacts how pervasive Spanish culture has been in any given society. Turns out that the countries with the least amount of Spanish blood, which in effect is absent in most of their populations (EG and Philippines) are also the least Hispanic of all the Hispanic countries in existence! I personally don't think that is coincidental.

Some people here think that saying something like this is denying the African input, which is a train of thought that I don't fully understand. If anything, sometimes I get the impression that some forumers want to make the African input much bigger than it really is. Look what's happening in the thread about (or at least its suppose to be about) white Haitians. Caribny wants to tell the Haitians that they are culturally more African than they want to admit while the Haitians, those from the inside, are saying just how much African culture exists in Haiti, but that its not as much as Caribny whttp://www.montessoridiscoveryschool.comants it to be. I don't think this is purely coincidental.

This is the reason I think some people want to discredit what the DNA ancestry tests are revealing about a few places.
Actually, there are areas of countries under Spanish influence with strong African cultural ties like Loiza in Puerto Rico, Chincha in Peru, Esmeraldas in Ecuador and Choco in Columbia, among some others. So, that isn't necessarily true.

I also think there are some attempts to minimize the African influence in the Western Hemisphere. So, that can go both ways and even by those of the diaspora, as socialization may have taken its toll on said influence in terms of being viewed in a negative light or has been systematically diminished from the masses.
 
Old 07-02-2014, 04:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
. Caribny wants to tell the Haitians that they are culturally more African than they want to admit while the Haitians, those from the inside, are saying just how much African culture exists in Haiti, but that its not as much as Caribny wants it to be. I don't think this is purely coincidental.

This is the reason I think some people want to discredit what the DNA ancestry tests are revealing about a few places.

I can assure you that a Haitian will stand out in France. A Cuban in Spain, and a Barbadian in the UK.

Why?

Because there is a VERY SIGNIFICANT African foot print in all these societies, even if it varies between the islands, and between people WITHIN these societies. So Mass Native admitted that his family doesn't identify with voodoo (and maybe even with other African influences in Haitian culture).

That doesn't negate the fact, that, when compared to other Caribbean islands, all of which have African influences in their culture, NONE of which are fundamentally European in scope (even if the elites wished this to be the case), Haiti exists at the most African end of the creole spectrum, when compared to other Caribbean islands. Indeed with islands with majority African descended populations, culturally Haiti is at one end and Barbados the other.

You wish to paint Cuba is a piece of Spain floating south of Florida. Funny its the very AFRICANNESS of much of its culture which attracts Spanish and other European tourists to that island in the first place. Hence the popularity of Afro Cuba folklore in the hotels!

Just recall BTW that Mass Native was making a lot of the African influences in Cuban culture.
 
Old 07-02-2014, 08:26 PM
 
9,752 posts, read 6,721,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I can assure you that a Haitian will stand out in France. A Cuban in Spain, and a Barbadian in the UK.
Dude: have you been to Miami lately? There are many Cubans that look identical to Spaniards. You are basing your views on visiting Cuba and seeing the blacks and mulatos there.



Pablo Morales Cuban Swimmer




Andy García Cuban actor

And the American mindset is: Andy García cannot be white because Andy is Hispanic and Al Pacino is white because he is Italian. That they look like twins is moot.
 
Old 07-02-2014, 09:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Dude: have you been to Miami lately? There are many Cubans that look identical to Spaniards. You are basing your views on visiting Cuba and seeing the blacks and mulatos there.



Pablo Morales Cuban Swimmer




Andy García Cuban actor

And the American mindset is: Andy García cannot be white because Andy is Hispanic and Al Pacino is white because he is Italian. That they look like twins is moot.

You will note that they are in Miami. Because so many whites left most of those left in Cuba are mixed. I am referring to people who live on the island of Cuba.
 
Old 07-02-2014, 09:16 PM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 12 days ago)
 
5,169 posts, read 8,019,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Actually, there are areas of countries under Spanish influence with strong African cultural ties like Loiza in Puerto Rico, Chincha in Peru, Esmeraldas in Ecuador and Choco in Columbia, among some others. So, that isn't necessarily true.
But even in those places the African influence is second place to the Spanish influence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
I also think there are some attempts to minimize the African influence in the Western Hemisphere.
Not really, its simply that the African influence is not dominant in any single Latin American country, rather the Spanish cultural influence is on what the societies are based on and its the largest source of their culture. In some countries, such as Paraguay, the Amerindian influence is quite strong (almost the entire population is actually bilingual Spanish/Guarani and most are mestizos); but those type of countries are literally a handful and even there, the Spanish imprint dominates.

I did met a Haitian guy once who insisted that the use of manioc in Haiti (especially cassava bread) was an African tradition and not a Taino tradition. That was a complete shock to me for two reasons, everywhere else in the Caribbean cassava is associated with the Taino/Carib indians and cassava is made from the yucca, a vegetable that before Columbus was unknown outside of the Caribbean.
 
Old 07-03-2014, 04:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
But even in those places the African influence is second place to the Spanish influence.

.

The fact remains that NONE of these Caribbean societies have cultures that people from their former colonial masters would regard as their own. There is a definite Caribbean flavor which is distinct from any thing European. While the official (high status) culture was dominated by the colonizers the folk cultures of the Americas have been heavily influenced by non Europeans. Because this culture is often seen as low status by people like you, there is often a temptation to trivialize it.

Get over your angst to portray Cuba as a society as Spanish as Madrid. It isn't, even if people like you wish it was.

Also the Haitian mightn't be totally wrong. Cassava has become a staple in much of Africa, and so in some instances its use was re-imported into Americas. Like corn, another import from the Americas, cassava was introduced subsequent to the "discovery" of the Americas. And became an embedded part of the West African diet.

What needs to be determined is how the slaves of Haiti learned the use if cassava from Taino, given that they were extinct by the time most were brought to Haiti.

Last edited by caribny; 07-03-2014 at 04:49 AM..
 
Old 07-03-2014, 05:55 PM
 
6,932 posts, read 8,085,065 times
Reputation: 3025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Dude: have you been to Miami lately? There are many Cubans that look identical to Spaniards. You are basing your views on visiting Cuba and seeing the blacks and mulatos there.



Pablo Morales Cuban Swimmer




Andy García Cuban actor

And the American mindset is: Andy García cannot be white because Andy is Hispanic and Al Pacino is white because he is Italian. That they look like twins is moot.
A lot of those whites in Miami have hidden traces of African ancestry. On 23andme, a lot of self identified white Cubans were surprised to find out they have African DNA in their genome. Cuban whites aren't as white as some may want to believe.
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