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Old 07-03-2014, 06:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey View Post
A lot of those whites in Miami have hidden traces of African ancestry. On 23andme, a lot of self identified white Cubans were surprised to find out they have African DNA in their genome. Cuban whites aren't as white as some may want to believe.
Sure, not all whites are 100% white. As many as 10% of American whites also have some black DNA. And lets not touch the Italians.





Tiger Woods ex wife has olive skin. They guy next to her has pink skin as expected for a white person.

Tiger's ex wife must be high yellow.

And your point is?

 
Old 07-03-2014, 06:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey View Post
Cuban whites aren't as white as some may want to believe.
Maybe you can teach them how to speak Swahili instead of Spanish.

Or they can learn to appreciate rap music.

Or mark themselves as black in the census.

Where are you going with this?
 
Old 07-03-2014, 08:10 PM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 12 days ago)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
The fact remains that NONE of these Caribbean societies have cultures that people from their former colonial masters would regard as their own. There is a definite Caribbean flavor which is distinct from any thing European. While the official (high status) culture was dominated by the colonizers the folk cultures of the Americas have been heavily influenced by non Europeans. Because this culture is often seen as low status by people like you, there is often a temptation to trivialize it.

Get over your angst to portray Cuba as a society as Spanish as Madrid. It isn't, even if people like you wish it was.
Cuba does feels largely like Spain, not Madrid but definitely Andalusia and Canaries region. They even speak like them! Even the Spaniards from those region of Spain say this. I don't even know why you have such issues with this, its simply a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
Also the Haitian mightn't be totally wrong. Cassava has become a staple in much of Africa, and so in some instances its use was re-imported into Americas. Like corn, another import from the Americas, cassava was introduced subsequent to the "discovery" of the Americas. And became an embedded part of the West African diet.

What needs to be determined is how the slaves of Haiti learned the use if cassava from Taino, given that they were extinct by the time most were brought to Haiti.
The Tainos were the one's who originally knew how to make cassava bread and their method was adopted by the Spanish, the Portuguese, the French, etc. With the case of the French in Saint-Domingue, they probably learn how to make cassava from the Spanish/Dominicans among whom the Taino tradition was kept unchanged since before Columbus et al landed there. In fact, it was the Portuguese that introduced cassava to Africa and they had to teach Africans how to do it the Taino way, because that is the only way cassava bread is done. Even the name cassava is of Taino origin.

To say that it isn't a Taino influence is complete nonsense. That would be like attempting to say that the English word hurricane didn't evolved from the Taino world hurakan, that tobacco didn't evolve from Taino tabako, that anything else that had its origin in Taino culture isn't from Taino culture.

Haiti is probably the one country in the Caribbean with the least amount of Taino/Carib cultural influence, but there is still some trace of that in Haitian culture and I don't see the point of denying that.

Last edited by AntonioR; 07-03-2014 at 08:19 PM..
 
Old 07-03-2014, 08:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Cuba does feels largely like Spain, not Madrid but definitely Andalusia and Canaries region. They even speak like them! Even the Spaniards from those region of Spain say this. I don't even know why you have such issues with this, its simply a fact.


The Tainos were the one's who originally knew how to make cassava bread and their method was adopted by the Spanish, the Portuguese, the French, etc. With the case of the French in Saint-Domingue, they probably learn how to make cassava from the Spanish/Dominicans among whom the Taino tradition was kept unchanged since before Columbus et al landed there. In fact, it was the Portuguese that introduced cassava to Africa and they had to teach Africans how to do it the Taino way, because that is the only way cassava bread is done. Even the name cassava is of Taino origin.

To say that it isn't a Taino influence is complete nonsense. That would be like attempting to say that the English word hurricane didn't evolved from the Taino world hurakan, that tobacco didn't evolve from Taino tabako, that anything else that had its origin in Taino culture isn't from Taino culture.

Haiti is probably the one country in the Caribbean with the least amount of Taino/Carib cultural influence, but there is still some trace of that in Haitian culture and I don't see the point of denying that.

I use to hang out at a club in New Jersey. Most assuredly any one who claims to be Spanish from Spain would NOT feel comfortable there. It is a very Cuban environment. The ENTIRETY of what being Cuban is.

Like I said. Get over your angst that Cuba is a bit of Spain. Cuba is a mix of the Canaries, Andalucia, the Basque regions, France, AND Congo, Igbo, Yoruba/Fon and the Mandingo and Temne cultures of West Africa, BOTH direct from West Africa, and brought to Cuba via Haiti. And of course the Tainos played their part.


ALL BLENDED TOGETHER in what has given rise to a very rich and complex Cuban culture. You take any of these out and it is NOT CUBAN! The African aspects of Cuban culture are so intertwined as to be unable to be removed without destroying the essence of what Cuban culture is, and ditto for the Spanish aspects. Cuban culture isn't Dominican, nor is it Puerto Rican, and definitely NOT Argentine. It is Cuban!

I hear Cubans speaking. I hear Spaniards. Cubans do NOT sound like Spaniards. They sound like Spanish speaking Caribbean people.

With all that mix, I must suggest that your need to portray it as Spain is very very STRANGE. I can see Brazil, because that is possibly the country culturally closest to Cuba if we define it as the Brazilian cultures which evolved in the region from Rio heading north to Recife via Salvador.

So busy you are to deny the influence of Africa in the Americas that you failed to note the point that cassava, corn and other crops were brought from the Americas to Africa, became an established aspect of their culture and RE-IMPORTED back to the Americas.

The dish which is known as funche, or funji, and the other fufu...often corn based, yet definitely African. I am not arguing over cassava bread. I am merely telling you that because a food staple might have originated among the Taino doesn't mean that its use isn't a result of its RE INTRODUCTION by Africans.
 
Old 07-03-2014, 10:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I use to hang out at a club in New Jersey. Most assuredly any one who claims to be Spanish from Spain would NOT feel comfortable there. It is a very Cuban environment. The ENTIRETY of what being Cuban is.

Like I said. Get over your angst that Cuba is a bit of Spain. Cuba is a mix of the Canaries, Andalucia, the Basque regions, France, AND Congo, Igbo, Yoruba/Fon and the Mandingo and Temne cultures of West Africa, BOTH direct from West Africa, and brought to Cuba via Haiti. And of course the Tainos played their part.


ALL BLENDED TOGETHER in what has given rise to a very rich and complex Cuban culture. You take any of these out and it is NOT CUBAN! The African aspects of Cuban culture are so intertwined as to be unable to be removed without destroying the essence of what Cuban culture is, and ditto for the Spanish aspects. Cuban culture isn't Dominican, nor is it Puerto Rican, and definitely NOT Argentine. It is Cuban!

I hear Cubans speaking. I hear Spaniards. Cubans do NOT sound like Spaniards. They sound like Spanish speaking Caribbean people.

With all that mix, I must suggest that your need to portray it as Spain is very very STRANGE. I can see Brazil, because that is possibly the country culturally closest to Cuba if we define it as the Brazilian cultures which evolved in the region from Rio heading north to Recife via Salvador.

So busy you are to deny the influence of Africa in the Americas that you failed to note the point that cassava, corn and other crops were brought from the Americas to Africa, became an established aspect of their culture and RE-IMPORTED back to the Americas.

The dish which is known as funche, or funji, and the other fufu...often corn based, yet definitely African. I am not arguing over cassava bread. I am merely telling you that because a food staple might have originated among the Taino doesn't mean that its use isn't a result of its RE INTRODUCTION by Africans.
Cuba has a huge black population, but unlike the Dominican Republic many Cubans of European descent decided not to mate with the blacks as much as it was done in the DR. Those that are mixed are openly called mulatos.

Furthermore, slavery in Cuba was as big as in the US and after slavery ended in the late 19th century blacks in Cuba were treated as blacks in the US.

Cuba has more blacks that most Latin nations, perhaps more than Brazil.



Raul castro looks like every other Spaniard in Spain.

 
Old 07-04-2014, 11:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Cuba has a huge black population, but unlike the Dominican Republic many Cubans of European descent decided not to mate with the blacks as much as it was done in the DR. Those that are mixed are openly called mulatos.

Furthermore, slavery in Cuba was as big as in the US and after slavery ended in the late 19th century blacks in Cuba were treated as blacks in the US.

Cuba has more blacks that most Latin nations, perhaps more than Brazil.



Raul castro looks like every other Spaniard in Spain.

Over the past two generations there has been a huge increase in miscegenation in Cuba. Why not show pictures of crowds, rather than picking up one person. If you try hard you might even find a Nigerian with blonde hair.
 
Old 07-04-2014, 12:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Over the past two generations there has been a huge increase in miscegenation in Cuba. Why not show pictures of crowds, rather than picking up one person. If you try hard you might even find a Nigerian with blonde hair.
Mixed folks are a dime a dozen.

In 20k years the entire world will be mixed.


What will racist do when that time comes?


What will you do?
 
Old 07-04-2014, 12:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Why not show pictures of crowds, rather than picking up one person.
As usual the elite look European and the masses of poor people do not. What is your point?



Havana Street
 
Old 07-04-2014, 06:31 PM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 12 days ago)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Cuba has a huge black population, but unlike the Dominican Republic many Cubans of European descent decided not to mate with the blacks as much as it was done in the DR. Those that are mixed are openly called mulatos.
Most areas of Cuba also remained white majority areas and for decades people mated with those that lived nearby. In eastern Cuba, where most of the blacks were concentrated with significant numbers of whites in the mix, what evolved was a much more mulatto society. This is evident even today, despite that Havana has received many eastern Cubans and today is much more mixed. Outside of Havana in the western and even in the central part of Cuba its still predominantly white/light skin, but on the eastern parts, especially around Santiago de Cuba, its much more mulatto.

Another thing to consider is the effect the Haitian Revolution had in Cuban outlooks. Cuba received many French from Haiti that were tormented by the excesses they witnessed during the Haitian Revolution, especially at the time of Dessalines. No question they influenced Cuban public opinion, to the degree that the Cuban governor prohibited any people of color from Haiti to step foot in Cuba. The Spanish government wanted to protect the ex-slaves of the French that joined the Spanish/Dominicans when Toussaint accepted their help in combating the French. Once Toussaint changed allegiance towards the French and treason the Spanish/Dominicans who previously helped him, the blacks that refused to form part of the treason were meant to be taken out of the island of Santo Domingo and settled in Cuba. The Spanish government promised them their freedom is they joined the Spanish in the battle against the French in the island of Santo Domingo, but they couldn't guarantee their safety once they refused to follow Toussaint in his treason. They stayed in Havana for a few nights, but in the end the Cuban government was afraid of what could happen if they were left to live freely in Cuba. In the end, the Spanish authorities decided to settle them in the Mexican Yucatan peninsula, near modern Merida. Even today you can still notice some African features in many of the Mexican mestizos from that area, no question descendants in part of the Haitians that were settled there and given their freedom.

The Cuban governor had heard more than enough of the stories from the traumatized French that fled Haiti and settled in Cuba, and I think that explains his reaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
Furthermore, slavery in Cuba was as big as in the US and after slavery ended in the late 19th century blacks in Cuba were treated as blacks in the US.
That was more of a 20th century phenomenon in Cuba and a direct response to US influence (especially southerners who were disgusted with the much more mellow treatment blacks got in Cuba compared to the southern US.) This is why Langston Hughes says that the Cuba where blacks were not allowed in Havana hotels was still part of the future in the 1920's or 30's. By the 1940's Cuba, but especially Havana, began to resemble Jim Crow southern USA and it was done, at first, to appease US American tourists.
 
Old 07-04-2014, 06:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
But even in those places the African influence is second place to the Spanish influence.


Not really, its simply that the African influence is not dominant in any single Latin American country, rather the Spanish cultural influence is on what the societies are based on and its the largest source of their culture. In some countries, such as Paraguay, the Amerindian influence is quite strong (almost the entire population is actually bilingual Spanish/Guarani and most are mestizos); but those type of countries are literally a handful and even there, the Spanish imprint dominates.

I did met a Haitian guy once who insisted that the use of manioc in Haiti (especially cassava bread) was an African tradition and not a Taino tradition. That was a complete shock to me for two reasons, everywhere else in the Caribbean cassava is associated with the Taino/Carib indians and cassava is made from the yucca, a vegetable that before Columbus was unknown outside of the Caribbean.
A lot of culture is regional throughout the Western Hemisphere and in turn, not too many people know about the concentrations of African based culture whether it is Preston, Nova Scotia, Canada; Camarones, Chile or Ibarra, Ecuador. It doesn't have to dominate to be an integral part of the society at large and it can be dominate in portions of countries, which it is.

There are examples of other cultures, European or otherwise, in Latin America that are large like Italian in Argentina or German and Japanese culture in Brazil. So, there may be other cultures involved.

Also, what people forget about Cuba is that many Spaniards fled Spain during the Francisco Franco regime and it turn, many white Cubans have relatively recent roots in Cuba due to this. Remember, many Western Hemisphere countries essentially opened up European immigration to Whiten, for lack of a better term, their countries. This occurred while many Black/African descent folks were declining(i.e.- Argentina). In turn, these new arrivals assimilated into the established White population that was already there. Some of this information is interesting: Racism in Cuba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 07-04-2014 at 07:02 PM..
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