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Old 07-05-2014, 02:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post

Cuba is as racist as is the USA, and you make that point very well.
Blacks often get the short end of the stick. I agree, however, the Castro government has been trying to fix that for years.


What are your criteria to say communist Cuba is racist?


Sometimes racial inequalaities are very hard to fix despite having a government that favors change.

Remember the times when for the first time many large US cities finally elected a black major, black council members, and a black school board. Where they able to lift the black people out of poverty? Were these folks able to provide a good education to the black families of the city? I think they failed!


The question is: WHy did they fail?

How come Obama does not do more for black America?

 
Old 07-05-2014, 03:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
I know that, but that's not what the discussion is about. Even in Haiti there are regions where there's more of a Hispanic influence compared to the rest of that country, doesn't mean though that Haitian culture is dominated by Hispanic culture.


Yes, the recent arrivals also explains the presence of the many white lineages in Cuba. A similar policy was developed in neighboring Haiti, except over there the goal was to increase the black population and for many years it worked. Many Haitian leaders even hated their Dominican neighbors and wanted to annihilate them solely for linguistic/racial reasons. That's probably the only case of a country worrying about what the people in another country looked like or the language they spoke or culture they practiced, and then invaded with the intention of annihilating them. No other country in this hemisphere did a something even remotely similar to that.


http://s25.postimg.org/gakb5wb0f/Faustin_I.jpg

Such are things. And that guy committed a massacre of Haitian mulattoes too. Maybe they were too white for his taste. We can call that the blackening policy, although Haitians wanted to extend that beyond their borders even if that meant violating the peace and right their neighbors had to rule themselves as they see fit. Only country in this hemisphere to have ever done such a thing.
You mean that other Western Hemisphere countries didn't do that to their Black(regardless of shade/percentage) too? Come on....

Also, take a look at what Trujillo did in the Dominican Republic and in turn, led to a distancing from anything Black, in spite of having Haitian ancestry. So, you have a similar example on the other side of the same island. Rafael Trujillo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Being important or major and being dominant aren't necessarily the same thing and it makes sense for there to be. Hispanic influence in Haiti given that the DR is next door. I'm sure that there is an African/French influence in portions of the DR too. With that said, I wouldn't put either on the same level of African influence in Cuba, as both are minimal at best.
 
Old 07-05-2014, 03:24 PM
 
56,511 posts, read 80,824,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Now you are truly descending into some level of insanity. Which part of Haiti is there more Hispanic influence?

When last I checked Haitian culture was a creole one based on a continuum between French (the elites, especially the mulattos), and an African (the rural peasants being at the more African end of this creole culture). And of course the various levels of US culture now pervade most segments of Haitian society.

Where there is Hispanic influences I don't know, unless Haiti did what many Dominicans fear, and have now conquered that part of the island?

I will also suggest to you that citing an NY Times article isn't proof of anything. The USA was still a slave holding nation, and even in societies where slavery had been abolished, the notion of a black run society still drove fear into the hearts of the white plantocracies throughout the Americas. This why there was an attempt to destroy Haiti by refusing to trade with it, and by forcing Haiti to pay reparations to France, to compensate for the loss of slaves. So yes Haiti was made to appear to be a demonic nation run by blood thirsty heathen savages.

While I have no doubt that there was violence instigated by Haiti those were the times and one need only look at the treatment of blacks and Native Americans in the USA during that era. Or the brutality that the former slaves had received from the French prior to independence. I also suggest that you learn more about how the Anglos treated the Hispanos in California, New Mexico and Texas during the mid- late 19th C.
This also doesn't get into the fact that if Haiti didn't have its Revolution, there may not be the United States as were now know it. By getting the French out of Haiti, it in turn got the French to give up the Louisiana Purchase and that allowed the US to go from sea to shining sea, eventually. Haiti has in part been neglected on a worldwide scale due to their revolution, whether people think about it or not.
 
Old 07-05-2014, 05:56 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,925,572 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Blacks often get the short end of the stick. I agree, however, the Castro government has been trying to fix that for years.


What are your criteria to say communist Cuba is racist?


Sometimes racial inequalaities are very hard to fix despite having a government that favors change.

Remember the times when for the first time many large US cities finally elected a black major, black council members, and a black school board. Where they able to lift the black people out of poverty? Were these folks able to provide a good education to the black families of the city? I think they failed!


The question is: WHy did they fail?

How come Obama does not do more for black America?

Few people in the USA claim that it has resolved its racial problems.

The Castro regime has made it illegal for Cuban blacks to speak out against racism, Given that Cuba is a command economy and not a capitalist one if they had wanted to solve racism there it would have been. As you said the elites are white in a land where the majority aren't,
 
Old 07-05-2014, 11:20 PM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 11 days ago)
 
5,167 posts, read 8,019,848 times
Reputation: 4264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agbor View Post
Speaking of racist..There was a Spanish speaking half-hour sit-com on PBS in the late 80's, about a Cuban-American
family living in Florida..In one story line, the daughter was 2nd generation Americanized and she brought home a fellow
high school student to work on a school project together.

Well, the high school student she brought home was an Afro-AMERICAN male the same age..The family went into a panic
that they might start dating, what if they get married and have kids..etc.? What will their friends think?...In one scene,
the girl stated in Spanish "I didn't know my family was so racist!!"

So near the end of the story..someone knocked at the door and it was an Afro-CUBAN male, whom they knew and they acted
normal with him..the AA guy was there and he(the Cuban) said.."Why are you having a problem with this brother?" "You
don't have a problem with me"...
That happens a lot, even in immigrant African families in the USA.



African-Americans have an image problem, mostly because of what's often shown is ghetto gang type of stuff and people think that's what AA's are all about.

In the case of the Cubans you mention, I wouldn't call that racist. If they were, then the fact that the other guy was Cuban would not had stopped them from rejecting him. But you only mentioned that one was African-American and the other was Afro-Cuban. The AA could had been black and the Cuban mixed, so we don't know if the comparison is truly on 'equal terms.' Assuming that it is; culture, education and social class often trumps race. Other Afro-Latino groups notice a difference in treatment when other Latinos realize they are Latinos too and not African-Americans. The change in attitude often follows after they hear the accent.
 
Old 07-06-2014, 12:54 AM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 11 days ago)
 
5,167 posts, read 8,019,848 times
Reputation: 4264
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
You mean that other Western Hemisphere countries didn't do that to their Black(regardless of shade/percentage) too? Come on....
Are you saying its ok when one group does it but not when another?

The Haitian Revolution marked a before and after situation, especially in Cuba where the influences arrived directly from the emigrants from Haiti. This is what you keep ignoring. What the Cubans learn from the escaped French emigres didn't stay in Cuba, it spread through out the continent. It became clear that having a white elite with a mass of people that are not even mixed can have disastrous consequences. Until then, what happened during the Haitian Revolution was thought to be impossible and then it happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
Also, take a look at what Trujillo did in the Dominican Republic and in turn, led to a distancing from anything Black, in spite of having Haitian ancestry. So, you have a similar example on the other side of the same island. Rafael Trujillo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You need to stop believing everything you read in Wikipedia. The Haitian situation in the DR is due to the abuses the Haitians committed against the Dominicans for more than half the 19th century. Trujillo is simply a modern scapegoat that has been used to divert attention away from the true source of the issue, which lies in the effects of the Haitian Revolution (and the subsequent Haitian desire to annex the Dominican territory and wipe out the Dominican population) in the Spanish side of the island. Ever since the Haitians invaded 8 times the Spanish side, burn the Dominican people's houses and towns, destroyed their rural farms; murdered many of their civilians and raped their women, etc; the Dominicans don't want anything to do with Haiti or with Haitians and resent anything that reminds them of the Haitians.

This was published in 1871 in The New York Times (20 years before Trujillo was even born):


SAN DOMINGO. - Progress of the Investigations of the Special Commission. Later Advices from the Times' Correspondents-- San Domingo City--Mr. Sumner's Misstatements Corrected--Thorough Examination by the Commission--Anti-Annexationists Impossible to

This was also published in 1871 in The New York Times:


The Commissioners' Report at Last Finished and Before Congress. - Explanatory Message from the President Accompanying It.The Report a Ponderous But Interesting Document.Many False Statements Corrected andMysteries Cleared.The Investigations Thorough

The eyewitness stories of the horrors that the French experienced in Haiti during the Haitian Revolution and the Dominicans experienced on their side of the island at the hands of the Haitians during the revolution and for more than half the 19th century spread throughout Spanish America. Dominicans also emigrated in large numbers to Puerto Rico, Cuba, Venezuela, Mexico, and Colombia. They migrated there with the stories of the horrors they witnessed. They often migrated back to the DR whenever the Haitian menace was put under control and pushed back to the western part of the island, only to re-emigrate when the Haitians invaded once again. This back and forth repeated itself multiple times in the 19th century and its not something that remained known only among the people directly affected by the Haitian threat.

Haiti became of symbol of everything that went wrong and a warning for other areas where similar social situations existed.

I will paraphrase what Thomas Jefferson once said:

"Lets make sure the problems stay on that island."

Before the Haitian Revolution the case was often made to increase the black populations in order to advance the economic development. After the Haitian Revolution the case became to reduce the black population in order to avoid a repeat of Haiti anywhere else in the Americas. In Cuba the issue was with the increasing sugar industry, developed at first by the French emigres from Haiti, and as a consequence they witnessed the increasing black population. This, in addition to the fact that Haiti was a day's boat ride away from the desolate eastern tip of Cuba which would had allowed any secret Haitian infiltration into Cuba to cause trouble, caused the Cuban authorities to attempt to keep things under control in order to avoid another Haiti.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
Being important or major and being dominant aren't necessarily the same thing and it makes sense for there to be. Hispanic influence in Haiti given that the DR is next door. I'm sure that there is an African/French influence in portions of the DR too. With that said, I wouldn't put either on the same level of African influence in Cuba, as both are minimal at best.
The Hispanic influence in northern Haiti has more to do with many Spaniards that settled there, especially in Cap Haitien, when Haiti was a colony of France. Also, a huge area of modern Haiti was Dominican territory until 1929 when the border was redrawn and Haiti got some 5,000 square kilometers of land (basically the Centre department in its entirety and parts of the Artibonite/Nord/Nord-Ouest departments was Dominican territory.) A Haitian hero of Hinche by the last name Peralte (originally Peralta) was one of the original Spanish/Dominican families that had been in Hinche since the times it was a Spanish/Dominican town.

Last edited by AntonioR; 07-06-2014 at 01:08 AM..
 
Old 07-06-2014, 01:54 AM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,925,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
That happens a lot, even in immigrant African families in the USA.



African-Americans have an image problem, mostly because of what's often shown is ghetto gang type of stuff and people think that's what AA's are all about.

In the case of the Cubans you mention, I wouldn't call that racist. If they were, then the fact that the other guy was Cuban would not had stopped them from rejecting him. But you only mentioned that one was African-American and the other was Afro-Cuban. The AA could had been black and the Cuban mixed, so we don't know if the comparison is truly on 'equal terms.' Assuming that it is; culture, education and social class often trumps race. Other Afro-Latino groups notice a difference in treatment when other Latinos realize they are Latinos too and not African-Americans. The change in attitude often follows after they hear the accent.

In Miami black Cubans didn't live among white Cubans until very recently. Indeed black Cubans tend to live in the NY area, not in Miami. Obviously if black Cubans were accepted within the mainstream Cuban exile community they would settle in the region where that community has the most social, political and economic clout. Unlike the NY area, being Spanish speaking is an asset, so the black Cubans wouldn't suffer the disadvantages that they would in accessing employment in the NY area.

Yet they settle in the NY area, and usually among Puerto Ricans, and Dominicans.

So it isn't "we are one happy family" among Cubans.


Social and Economic Adjustment of Afro-Cubans in the United States: Racial ... - Michelle Hay - Google Books



As to Afro Latinos. Their incomes lag that of African Americans, so why they might think that they are better is any one's guess. Its not as if they are that respected by their fellow Hispanics either. How often does one see a representation of Afro Latinos within Hispanic media, either US or imported from Latin America? Indeed this is a whole debate now among many Afro Latinos.

As to the African vs. African American issue. Give it time. When these Africans have US born kids who begin to be seen as African Americans, because this is the group that they will assimilate into, and be classified as, then attitudes will change. Many are recent immigrants, so still buy into the nonsense that whites treat them differently.

I have seen Caribbean attitudes evolve over time, as we are no longer viewed as a model group. Just scroll over to the NY forums and see how West Indian neighborhoods are described. Indeed we now seem to attract more animosity from white racists in NY than AAs do, as we are seen as less humble.

Even now as Nigerians are among the most educated groups in the USA, their household incomes are about the same as the considerably less educated West Indians. One can only wonder why a group of people with a 60% college graduation rate, earn the same as the other black immigrant group which has only a 25% college graduation rate. Its not as if Nigerians have a language handicap. As it is many Nigerians college grads are driving taxis.

It is clear that Nigerian and other Africans pay a serious penalty in the labor markets for being African, and face MORE, not less racial, discrimination when compared to black Caribbean and black American peoples. So their return on investing in a college education is considerably less.
 
Old 07-06-2014, 02:07 AM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,925,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Are you saying its ok when one group does it but not when another?

The Haitian Revolution marked a before and after situation, especially in Cuba where the influences arrived directly from the emigrants from Haiti. :


So here you are peddling a vicious lie that some how the bad treatment of slaves had something to do with the Haitian Revolution. They very reason why the slaves revolted in Haiti was against the cruelty of their white AND MULATTO slave masters. The notion was work a slave as hard as possible with the notion that they would last 7 years, and then be replaced by a fresh import from Africa.

Slavery in the USA GREW after the Haitian Revolution as the cotton industry became very lucrative. Slavery GREW in Cuba and Brazil, with the exit of Haiti, and the significant reduction of British West Indian sugar, this at a time when sugar consumption increased as it became accessible to the masses, and not just the wealthy elites.

It only reflects YOUR OWN deep seated biases against black people why you ignore the violence and brutalities perpetuated by whites against each other, and against blacks and Native Americans.

Don't know if you are aware of this, but the Irish indentures to the USA were treated even WORSE than were the African slaves, because their owners wanted to ensure that they were worked to death before their period of indenture ended.

So why your focus on the behavior of the Haitian government, using biased sources from the NY Times and the Dominicans as evidence. Haiti was a country founded by slaves. In an era when even poor whites lacked the right to vote, such a concept was seen as a huge threat which had to be destroyed. Indeed the very sources which you cite, would have also described blacks as savage brutes who deserved to be enslaved. And it was through this lens that Haiti was perceived.
 
Old 07-06-2014, 02:10 AM
 
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A heard in Cuba that a lot of Afrocubans live in Hialeah, Afrocubans leaving the country is a quite recent phenomena. The started to leave from Periodo Especial (1992) onward, when the USSR cut subsidies.

Once, a retired Cuban security colonel working as a taxi driver or "botero" told me that communists were very disappointed with Afrocubans because their role model were Afroamericans. The great failure of the communists education system was that it ignored completely the fact that there were blacks in Cuba.

According to communists, since in Cuba there's no racism (not true), every black complaining of racism is an agent of "yankee imperialism".

In Cuba, there's a lot of racial hatred because during the 60's and 70's the government used blacks to go against white "worms" or the remnants of the bourgeoisie....Since the remnants of the bourgeoise are now in power (plus fiercely racist guajiros or peasants), the result is that the country looks like Alabama before equality laws.
 
Old 07-06-2014, 02:10 AM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,925,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post

The Hispanic influence in northern Haiti has more to do with many Spaniards that settled there, .
Please describe how this influence manifests in today's Haiti. How many of these people remained in Haiti. Also the part of the DR which was annexed with Haiti was lightly populated and indeed even many border areas of the DR are populated mainly by people of Haitian descent. Indeed one can argue that Haiti is much more culturally influential on the DR than the other way around. Take a look at how Dominicans, Haitians, and Cubans dance if you doubt.
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