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Old 11-04-2013, 03:04 AM
 
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Just where did you retrieve the details on the information you posted? My response is based on (a) history (b) research (c) experience having lived almost everywhere you mentioned. Please read my reply below.

"Cuba might have been just like PR and DR if it weren't by the great migratory wave from Spain from 1850 to 1945." PR is often similar enough to Cuba. The fact was much underlined by the Platt Amendment. Great Spanish migratory waves often coincided for both island and were not limited to 1850-1945. One difference might have been that more Spaniards (i.e., Juan Ramo'n Jime'nez) fled to PR after the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) than they did to Cuba proper. The DR is as different from Cuba as PR is often similar.

"The great migratory wave went to Buenos Aires, Montevideo, Havana and some to New York. Cuba opened doors to white immigration after the Spanish-American war of 1898, a large number of soldiers that were fighting Cubans stayed (Castro's father). The American occupation - 1898-1912 - promoted open door policity and protected Spanish properties in Cuba, but restricted Spanish immigration to PR." All the places you mention had Spanish migratory peaks and valleys not restricted to a post-1898 world. White migration to Cuba was open (indeed encouraged) many, many times in Cuban history. The Spanish soldiers who fought the Mambis (the Cuban patriots) often stayed as they too had made Cuba their home and it seemed logical to creolize rather than go back to an uncertain political and economic future in poor and war-torn 19th century Spain. North American occupation was never really "over." The Platt Amendment controlled Cuba and forbade her from creating an independent foreign policy. The Platt Amendment is the reason the U.S.A. made "lawful claim" on Guanta'namo. Restricted immigration of whites to PR? What is your source for the comment?

"Those phenotypes, as I told you, are quite abondant but not the majority. As I told you, you can find them in Old Havana and Centre Habana peddling to tourists, and they are called "Palestinians" by Cubans. Blacks tend to live in both extremes of the island, in the eastern provinces and in the slums of Havana, by now the entire city is a great slum except the westernmost section." I might encourage using a word other than "phenotype" because it has an undesirable eugenics ring to it. Throughout its history, various provinces (Oriente, for example) and not just neighborhoods (i.e., Regla) where known for having a densely black population. "Palestinos" because there is an element of Middle Eastern Cubans (Lebanese) who went to Cuba (also PR). "Palestinos" brought the shoe-making industry and jewelry businesses. No surprise those individuals "peddling" goods would be called "palestinos." (BTW: Lots of Chinese in Cuba as well -- mostly in ice-cream and dry-cleaning businesses.) That all of Havana is a slum is rather subjective if measured by buildings which are in grave disrepair or smeared by the unsightly makeup of a socialist experiment gone awry.

"The figure of 30 percent of pure Spanish stock population does not comes from Census data, but govermental studies sponsored by MINSAP involving DNA sampling. According to Census data, there are almost no white or mulattoes in Cuba, nobody wants to be black (atraso). In Cuba, slavery ended in 1884 but most whites haven't heard the news." Historically, Cuba always had significant problems with the black race because blacks were mostly at the bottom rung of the socio-economic ladder in Cuban society. Blacks were loathed for being poor but liked as individuals. After the Revolution, even Fidel eventually admitted Cuba's failure with blacks and homosexuals. Cuban reactions to blacks are a mixed bag, however. (Batista was a mulatto.) DNA sampling? Most people in the world show a linkage to the black race. What is important to determine exact racial percentages on the island would require true census data. Writer impressions of what Cuba "looks like" does not seem to be enough of an argument. I think one of Fidel's precepts might have been to create a "browner" Cuban race to nullify the perceived superiority the white (or, white-like) bourgoise classes that fled early (1959-1968) typically enjoyed. Race is a complex issue in Cuba. There are approximately 15 different names given to black types on the continuum to becoming a white Cuban (i.e., cafe'con leche vs. amarillo, etc.). The point is: Cuba was and remains a diverse society but mulattoes abound. More official stats are requisite in order to make generalized statements viable (valid). No such things as "almost no whites or mulattoes in Cuba." If anything, mulattoes are a-plenty.

About 40 to 50 percent of the population are "blanco cubano" or "brown paper bags", people that could pass for white in DR or PR and consider themselves white, but have some black blood in them. "Blanco cubano" is a very extensive term. There is such a thing as a caucasian Cuban and it is a matter of proximity -- or distance -- to black bloodline. Not unlike to the phenomenon of add mixtures in the state of Georgia's white population, for example.

Cuba is a very racist country. According to the Communist government, blacks and mulattoes are born with "antisocial instincts", (Ley de Precriminalidad). The Ley de Precriminalidad states that blacks and mulattoes have a "proclivity" to antisocial behaviours. Quite a confusiong law since almost all the Revolutionary Police are black palestinians (guarapitos). Occupational delinquency was anathema to revolutionary ideals, so maybe such a thing as a connection to unemployed and displaced blacks getting the shaft from Castro's lawmakers.

Blacks, whites and mulattoes are not the original population, the original population disappeared 400 years ago. Nowdays, you find some people that claim Taino ancestry, but they are descendants of Yucatecos brought as slaves. The government recreated some "Taino Villages" were you can find those "yucatecos" making casabe, dancing for the tourists, etc. PR and Cuba have done ample research on Tainos. Specialized multiple strand DNA work found lots of current ancestral links to Taino bloodlines. Finding DNA strands that relate whites to Africans is not hard and almost always a black-to-white relationship is evident for most people across every continent. But Taino strands are rare and more in line with Native American Indian genetic map pools. True that native populations were decimated and substituted by blacks, indentured servants and immigrants. If eastern Cuba (Oriente) had Haitians and Jamaicans who blended, no great surpise Yucatecos would cross or be brought over the Yucata'n Channel and blend into the greater population.

A very confusing country, nothing to do with neighbours except with Miami. HAHAHA. Cuba is not for the uninitiated, that's for sure. We have only touched the pitiful tip of the iceberg and have left French, British and North American Cuba unexplained. Miami is a cubalinda mythical land: That which did not happen, happened, but mostly because everyone in Miami says so.

José Marti once said “Hombre es mas que Negro, mas que Mulato, mas que Blanco" (Being a Man is more than being a black, a mulatto or a white")... Some say maliciously that that day he was under the influence of gin. The Spanish labeled him as Pepe Ginebrita, a curious paralelism with Pepe Botella (Jose I, the brother of Napoleon and King of Spain during a brief interlude, perhaps the only King that truly loved Spain). Joseph (Napoleon's brother) or "Pepe botella" tried to help Spain only in the beginning, but the Spaniards did not understand the French effort and allied with Britain and Portugal keen on kicking Joseph out. Atrocities were had both ways. Goya perfectly conveyed the horror in his Tres de Mayo de 1808 en Madrid painting. Ironically, had Spain remained under French control and forced the clergy to modernize, perhaps Franco would have never seen the light of day and Spain would have been brought into the folds of modern and democratic Europe, much, much sooner. Joseph failed so miserably in Spain that Napoleon had to enter Spain with the grand armee to rescue. The massive drain on Napoleon's army brought on by the Spanish incursion is thought to have been one of Napoleon's most debilitating military and political maneuvers on his way to Waterloo.

 
Old 11-04-2013, 01:20 PM
 
6,932 posts, read 8,097,042 times
Reputation: 3025
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObscureOpulence View Post
Fidel Castro's mother is a mulatto. Fiddle Castro is 1/4 black.
I thought his parents were from the Canarie Islands.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 03:16 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,677,292 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antillano89 View Post
Cuba also received immigration from northern Spain, mainly from Catalonia and Galicia. Fidel Castro for example, is of Galician descent from his father's side.
True. However keep in mind that many of those waves of Spaniard and Spanish immigrants were NOT always permanent. Many of them returned back to Spain or moved to the USA or other nations. Just saying. Significant numbers of the Spaniards did not choose to remain in Cuba or they eventually left.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 03:19 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,677,292 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by onetwoxplore View Post
Just where did you retrieve the details on the information you posted? My response is based on (a) history (b) research (c) experience having lived almost everywhere you mentioned. Please read my reply below.

"Cuba might have been just like PR and DR if it weren't by the great migratory wave from Spain from 1850 to 1945." PR is often similar enough to Cuba. The fact was much underlined by the Platt Amendment. Great Spanish migratory waves often coincided for both island and were not limited to 1850-1945. One difference might have been that more Spaniards (i.e., Juan Ramo'n Jime'nez) fled to PR after the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) than they did to Cuba proper. The DR is as different from Cuba as PR is often similar.

"The great migratory wave went to Buenos Aires, Montevideo, Havana and some to New York. Cuba opened doors to white immigration after the Spanish-American war of 1898, a large number of soldiers that were fighting Cubans stayed (Castro's father). The American occupation - 1898-1912 - promoted open door policity and protected Spanish properties in Cuba, but restricted Spanish immigration to PR." All the places you mention had Spanish migratory peaks and valleys not restricted to a post-1898 world. White migration to Cuba was open (indeed encouraged) many, many times in Cuban history. The Spanish soldiers who fought the Mambis (the Cuban patriots) often stayed as they too had made Cuba their home and it seemed logical to creolize rather than go back to an uncertain political and economic future in poor and war-torn 19th century Spain. North American occupation was never really "over." The Platt Amendment controlled Cuba and forbade her from creating an independent foreign policy. The Platt Amendment is the reason the U.S.A. made "lawful claim" on Guanta'namo. Restricted immigration of whites to PR? What is your source for the comment?

"Those phenotypes, as I told you, are quite abondant but not the majority. As I told you, you can find them in Old Havana and Centre Habana peddling to tourists, and they are called "Palestinians" by Cubans. Blacks tend to live in both extremes of the island, in the eastern provinces and in the slums of Havana, by now the entire city is a great slum except the westernmost section." I might encourage using a word other than "phenotype" because it has an undesirable eugenics ring to it. Throughout its history, various provinces (Oriente, for example) and not just neighborhoods (i.e., Regla) where known for having a densely black population. "Palestinos" because there is an element of Middle Eastern Cubans (Lebanese) who went to Cuba (also PR). "Palestinos" brought the shoe-making industry and jewelry businesses. No surprise those individuals "peddling" goods would be called "palestinos." (BTW: Lots of Chinese in Cuba as well -- mostly in ice-cream and dry-cleaning businesses.) That all of Havana is a slum is rather subjective if measured by buildings which are in grave disrepair or smeared by the unsightly makeup of a socialist experiment gone awry.

"The figure of 30 percent of pure Spanish stock population does not comes from Census data, but govermental studies sponsored by MINSAP involving DNA sampling. According to Census data, there are almost no white or mulattoes in Cuba, nobody wants to be black (atraso). In Cuba, slavery ended in 1884 but most whites haven't heard the news." Historically, Cuba always had significant problems with the black race because blacks were mostly at the bottom rung of the socio-economic ladder in Cuban society. Blacks were loathed for being poor but liked as individuals. After the Revolution, even Fidel eventually admitted Cuba's failure with blacks and homosexuals. Cuban reactions to blacks are a mixed bag, however. (Batista was a mulatto.) DNA sampling? Most people in the world show a linkage to the black race. What is important to determine exact racial percentages on the island would require true census data. Writer impressions of what Cuba "looks like" does not seem to be enough of an argument. I think one of Fidel's precepts might have been to create a "browner" Cuban race to nullify the perceived superiority the white (or, white-like) bourgoise classes that fled early (1959-1968) typically enjoyed. Race is a complex issue in Cuba. There are approximately 15 different names given to black types on the continuum to becoming a white Cuban (i.e., cafe'con leche vs. amarillo, etc.). The point is: Cuba was and remains a diverse society but mulattoes abound. More official stats are requisite in order to make generalized statements viable (valid). No such things as "almost no whites or mulattoes in Cuba." If anything, mulattoes are a-plenty.

About 40 to 50 percent of the population are "blanco cubano" or "brown paper bags", people that could pass for white in DR or PR and consider themselves white, but have some black blood in them. "Blanco cubano" is a very extensive term. There is such a thing as a caucasian Cuban and it is a matter of proximity -- or distance -- to black bloodline. Not unlike to the phenomenon of add mixtures in the state of Georgia's white population, for example.

Cuba is a very racist country. According to the Communist government, blacks and mulattoes are born with "antisocial instincts", (Ley de Precriminalidad). The Ley de Precriminalidad states that blacks and mulattoes have a "proclivity" to antisocial behaviours. Quite a confusiong law since almost all the Revolutionary Police are black palestinians (guarapitos). Occupational delinquency was anathema to revolutionary ideals, so maybe such a thing as a connection to unemployed and displaced blacks getting the shaft from Castro's lawmakers.

Blacks, whites and mulattoes are not the original population, the original population disappeared 400 years ago. Nowdays, you find some people that claim Taino ancestry, but they are descendants of Yucatecos brought as slaves. The government recreated some "Taino Villages" were you can find those "yucatecos" making casabe, dancing for the tourists, etc. PR and Cuba have done ample research on Tainos. Specialized multiple strand DNA work found lots of current ancestral links to Taino bloodlines. Finding DNA strands that relate whites to Africans is not hard and almost always a black-to-white relationship is evident for most people across every continent. But Taino strands are rare and more in line with Native American Indian genetic map pools. True that native populations were decimated and substituted by blacks, indentured servants and immigrants. If eastern Cuba (Oriente) had Haitians and Jamaicans who blended, no great surpise Yucatecos would cross or be brought over the Yucata'n Channel and blend into the greater population.

A very confusing country, nothing to do with neighbours except with Miami. HAHAHA. Cuba is not for the uninitiated, that's for sure. We have only touched the pitiful tip of the iceberg and have left French, British and North American Cuba unexplained. Miami is a cubalinda mythical land: That which did not happen, happened, but mostly because everyone in Miami says so.

José Marti once said “Hombre es mas que Negro, mas que Mulato, mas que Blanco" (Being a Man is more than being a black, a mulatto or a white")... Some say maliciously that that day he was under the influence of gin. The Spanish labeled him as Pepe Ginebrita, a curious paralelism with Pepe Botella (Jose I, the brother of Napoleon and King of Spain during a brief interlude, perhaps the only King that truly loved Spain). Joseph (Napoleon's brother) or "Pepe botella" tried to help Spain only in the beginning, but the Spaniards did not understand the French effort and allied with Britain and Portugal keen on kicking Joseph out. Atrocities were had both ways. Goya perfectly conveyed the horror in his Tres de Mayo de 1808 en Madrid painting. Ironically, had Spain remained under French control and forced the clergy to modernize, perhaps Franco would have never seen the light of day and Spain would have been brought into the folds of modern and democratic Europe, much, much sooner. Joseph failed so miserably in Spain that Napoleon had to enter Spain with the grand armee to rescue. The massive drain on Napoleon's army brought on by the Spanish incursion is thought to have been one of Napoleon's most debilitating military and political maneuvers on his way to Waterloo.
Cuba had Jim Crow like and racist segregationist policies well until Fidel Castro came into power. It mirrors the Jim Crow era history of the USA in Cuba historically. Cuba and South Africa didn't have a one drop rule however. The USA had a one drop rule from 1931 to 1967.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 03:20 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,677,292 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miralpeix View Post
Whites are bound to disappear since they are leaving in droves. I remember that 20 years ago, there were zones in Havana that were mostly white like El Vedado, Vibora, Miramar, now those areas have a large abondance of "palestinos", "illegal immigrants" from the eastern provinces.

One thing I don't like is that they litter everything with "santeria" practices, they litter the seaside with all sorts of crap they throw to the sea to honour Yemaya, and they sacrifice animals, I find all that quite nauseating. The government tried to erradicate them, but now they don't care.
Why do they refer to certain people as "Palestinos" in Cuba?
 
Old 11-04-2013, 04:36 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,677,292 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey View Post
I thought his parents were from the Canarie Islands.
His mother is of Spaniard and African descent and his father is a Galician immigrant.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 05:09 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,941,189 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObscureOpulence View Post
Cuba and Brazil are the two most Africanized nations in the Westerm Hemisphere.

.
Have you heard of Haiti? Without a dubt Haiti is the most Africanized as slavery maybe lasted less then 100 years on that island. And the vast majority of the slaves were African bornat the time of the Revolution. The French influences were most heavy only amongst the elites, who, until recently, were mainly mulato. The majority of the peasants lacked exposure to the formal educational system, which is usually the most powerful source of European/"western" values and traditions in most of the Caribbean.

Cuban and Brazilian blacks had the longest exposure to slavery (starting in early/mid 16th century and not ending until the late 19th) and exist as minority groups within white dominated societies and so have undergone a greater creolization, though strong African religious influences remain widespread. But then the same can be said of Haiti.

Also remember that many of the slaves imported into Cuba in the 16th/17th centuries were transhipped to Mexico and elsewhere.
 
Old 11-05-2013, 12:27 AM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,677,292 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Have you heard of Haiti? Without a dubt Haiti is the most Africanized as slavery maybe lasted less then 100 years on that island. And the vast majority of the slaves were African bornat the time of the Revolution. The French influences were most heavy only amongst the elites, who, until recently, were mainly mulato. The majority of the peasants lacked exposure to the formal educational system, which is usually the most powerful source of European/"western" values and traditions in most of the Caribbean.

Cuban and Brazilian blacks had the longest exposure to slavery (starting in early/mid 16th century and not ending until the late 19th) and exist as minority groups within white dominated societies and so have undergone a greater creolization, though strong African religious influences remain widespread. But then the same can be said of Haiti.

Also remember that many of the slaves imported into Cuba in the 16th/17th centuries were transhipped to Mexico and elsewhere.
Have you heard of travelling? Haiti definitely has African influences. If you look at Cuba and Brazil they have African cultures that were maintained identically and sometimes preserved traditions that are no longer practiced in Africa.

Cuba and Brazil have the strongest African based Afrodiasporic cultures in the Western Hemisphere. Haiti also.

And many slaves happened to pass through Cuba, but that doesn't mean that the slaves entering Mexico were Cuban or lived there. Many boats made break and pit stops or trades etc.

You also seem to forget that Black Africans were being imported to Brazil and Cuba well until the 1880s and even the 1890s.

Cuba recieved and/or absorbed the most African slaves of any Caribbean island. Cuba received between 1.3 million to 2 million slaves between 1492 and 1892. Remember, slavery was abolished in Cuba in 1886.

In Brazil, slavery was abolished in 1888, the last to do so in the Western Hemisphere.

Look up "Amparos" and "Amaros"
 
Old 11-05-2013, 12:30 AM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,677,292 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Have you heard of Haiti? Without a dubt Haiti is the most Africanized as slavery maybe lasted less then 100 years on that island. And the vast majority of the slaves were African bornat the time of the Revolution. The French influences were most heavy only amongst the elites, who, until recently, were mainly mulato. The majority of the peasants lacked exposure to the formal educational system, which is usually the most powerful source of European/"western" values and traditions in most of the Caribbean.

Cuban and Brazilian blacks had the longest exposure to slavery (starting in early/mid 16th century and not ending until the late 19th) and exist as minority groups within white dominated societies and so have undergone a greater creolization, though strong African religious influences remain widespread. But then the same can be said of Haiti.

Also remember that many of the slaves imported into Cuba in the 16th/17th centuries were transhipped to Mexico and elsewhere.
Haiti has lots of European influence as well, especially in government and official French language. However many of the Europeans and whites obviously fled due to the uprising and rebellion, but Haitians are not necessarily free of European and other influences.

Also btw bozal / creole languages are still spoken by some African descendants in places like Brazil and Cuba and even among some in Puerto Rico.
 
Old 11-06-2013, 03:37 AM
 
Location: Brasilia
196 posts, read 360,437 times
Reputation: 88
nah...I don't think so...
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