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Old 11-06-2013, 05:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
Have you heard of travelling? Haiti definitely has African influences. If you look at Cuba and Brazil they have African cultures that were maintained identically and sometimes preserved traditions that are no longer practiced in Africa.

Cuba and Brazil have the strongest African based Afrodiasporic cultures in the Western Hemisphere. Haiti also.

And many slaves happened to pass through Cuba, but that doesn't mean that the slaves entering Mexico were Cuban or lived there. Many boats made break and pit stops or trades etc.

You also seem to forget that Black Africans were being imported to Brazil and Cuba well until the 1880s and even the 1890s.

Cuba recieved and/or absorbed the most African slaves of any Caribbean island. Cuba received between 1.3 million to 2 million slaves between 1492 and 1892. Remember, slavery was abolished in Cuba in 1886.

In Brazil, slavery was abolished in 1888, the last to do so in the Western Hemisphere.

Look up "Amparos" and "Amaros"

Dont know why you continue to peddle the nonsense that Haitians are less African than Cubans. Next time you go to Haiti try to see places other than Petionville. Its obvious that you hung out with those mulatres who love France, qand who deny any connection to Africa.

In the 1953 census only 25% of Cubans were black or mulato. Indeed only around 12% were black. There were 7 million people in Cuba. The blacks were located within a majority white culture and would have had undergone massive cultural transformations in order to succeed or even survive in such a society.

Now compare that to Haiti, which is over 95% black, and most of this black population had minimal exposure to the type of slavery and colonialism which would have forced massive transformation of their culture. Because this contected ended in 1789/1804. Of the "creole" blacks its quite obvious that Haitians are the least creolized of all, retaining way more of their African culture.

You need to know that while music and religion are important elements of African culture it is not all. Now one can say that Cuba has retained massive elements of African religions as did Haiti. One can say that there is much that is very African in Cuban music and dance as is true for Haiti. But one will also be forced to admit that Cubans blacks also absorbed way more Spanish culture than did your average Haitian black absorb French culture.

Now consider this. 17% of the slaves who entered the Americas went to French colonies. Clearly most to Haiti and Guadeloupe and Martinique are relatively small islands.

18% went to Spanish colonies. Given that Mexico and Colombia imported significant numbers of slaves as well, and given that the importation into the Spanish colonies began around 1520 and continued well beyond the mid 19th century (most of these slaves dying within 10 years of arrival. it seems clear to me that Haiti, rather than Cuba, represents a concentration of slave importation. Because most of these slaves arrived within 100 years of the Revolution. Of the huge number of slaves which you mention into Cuba. some were transhipped, and in any case this represented importation over a 350 year period.

In 1789 when the Revolution began there were over 500,000 slaves. In 1953 there were just over 700,000 blacks in Cuba, some of whom were Antillean sugar workers..

 
Old 11-06-2013, 05:53 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,941,189 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
Haiti has lots of European influence as well, especially in government and official French language. However many of the Europeans and whites obviously fled due to the uprising and rebellion, but Haitians are not necessarily free of European and other influences.

Also btw bozal / creole languages are still spoken by some African descendants in places like Brazil and Cuba and even among some in Puerto Rico.

The Haitian ELITE have much French influences. The Haitian black masses are way more African than Cuban blacks are.

Be logical. After 1804 there were very few whites left in Haiti. Cuba has always had a white majority, which soared even further after many Spanish migrants moved there in the 19th and 20th centuries. A Cuban black would have had to survive within a Spanish dominated society. Not only the elites, but even among teh working class. Indeed the very composition of the Afrodescendant population in Cuba, comapred to Haiti indicates ths high level of contact.

The vast majority of Afrodescendants are black, and its probably that most are 100% African. In Cuba the mulato population is way bigger than then black population, and blacks have high levels of social contact with whites and mulatos.

So why will your typical Haitian, who was separated from French colonial rule in 1804, and who is socially isolated from the Francophile elites, be less African than a Cuban black who must daily interact with Cuban whites in a society which has ALWAYS been dominated by whites. Cubans blacks not being an isolated group?

The big difference beteen Haitians and other blacks in the Americas is that they were separated from Euro dominated societies at an early period of their settlement in the Americas. Unlike others, they did not under go a period of colonialism. And also unlike others the educational system was (and is) very undevloped so most Haitians were isolated from European ways ofr thinking.


Put a typical Haitian next to a West African. It will amze you as to how similar they are. Put qa Cuban black and its obvious which belongs to which group. And I have been in AfroCuban gatherings so I know what I am talking about.

You might as well claim that white Cubans are more African than Haitian peasants/urban poor at this rate.
 
Old 11-06-2013, 05:58 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,941,189 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
Haiti has lots of European influence as well, especially in government and official French language. However many of the Europeans and whites obviously fled due to the uprising and rebellion, but Haitians are not necessarily free of European and other influences.

Also btw bozal / creole languages are still spoken by some African descendants in places like Brazil and Cuba and even among some in Puerto Rico.

The language spoken by Cubans (aside from within religious practises) are similar to that of other Cubans once one adjusts for region. There is no widespread "creole" Spanish used in Cuba. Indeed Cuban blacks are probably the LEAST African among Caribbean blacks when it comes to their language. True they have gifted many African words into day to day Spanish, but then that it true throughout the Americas, even including the USA.

This is why comparing various groups makes no sense, except to say that non elite Haitians and Surianme Maroons retain the most African characteristics because they are the least colonized.

Cubans have certain African characteristics. Jamaicans others. Jamaican speech is way more "African" than that of Cuban blacks, even if their religious practises are more distant from Africa.
 
Old 11-06-2013, 06:28 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,677,292 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Dont know why you continue to peddle the nonsense that Haitians are less African than Cubans. Next time you go to Haiti try to see places other than Petionville. Its obvious that you hung out with those mulatres who love France, qand who deny any connection to Africa.

In the 1953 census only 25% of Cubans were black or mulato. Indeed only around 12% were black. There were 7 million people in Cuba. The blacks were located within a majority white culture and would have had undergone massive cultural transformations in order to succeed or even survive in such a society.

Now compare that to Haiti, which is over 95% black, and most of this black population had minimal exposure to the type of slavery and colonialism which would have forced massive transformation of their culture. Because this contected ended in 1789/1804. Of the "creole" blacks its quite obvious that Haitians are the least creolized of all, retaining way more of their African culture.

You need to know that while music and religion are important elements of African culture it is not all. Now one can say that Cuba has retained massive elements of African religions as did Haiti. One can say that there is much that is very African in Cuban music and dance as is true for Haiti. But one will also be forced to admit that Cubans blacks also absorbed way more Spanish culture than did your average Haitian black absorb French culture.

Now consider this. 17% of the slaves who entered the Americas went to French colonies. Clearly most to Haiti and Guadeloupe and Martinique are relatively small islands.

18% went to Spanish colonies. Given that Mexico and Colombia imported significant numbers of slaves as well, and given that the importation into the Spanish colonies began around 1520 and continued well beyond the mid 19th century (most of these slaves dying within 10 years of arrival. it seems clear to me that Haiti, rather than Cuba, represents a concentration of slave importation. Because most of these slaves arrived within 100 years of the Revolution. Of the huge number of slaves which you mention into Cuba. some were transhipped, and in any case this represented importation over a 350 year period.

In 1789 when the Revolution began there were over 500,000 slaves. In 1953 there were just over 700,000 blacks in Cuba, some of whom were Antillean sugar workers..
Wait, Hold up. For starters, NO one said Haitians were less African than Cubans or others. Please post where such was said on here by me or anyone else please.....? Don't put words in my mouth because I never said Haitians were more or less African than anyone else. In fact, Haiti wasn't even mentioned here until YOU brought it up. I don't know why you like to make ASSumptions and peddle nonsense.

And frankly the whole idea of one being more or less African then the other. If talking about aspects of traditions that are African or African derived is another angle or aspect with which to look at things.

As for slaves and amounts etc, Cuba received and absorbed between 1.3 million to 2 million plus slaves between 1492 and 1886. They received the most slaves imported of any Caribbean island or region. There was lots of illegal importation of slaves that occurred thoughout much of the 19th century.

I never said such to take away or add from or to Haiti. Your mentioning of Haiti here is really irrelevant.

Again, this is about the African cultural aesthetics and traditions etc.
 
Old 11-06-2013, 06:35 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,677,292 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Dont know why you continue to peddle the nonsense that Haitians are less African than Cubans. Next time you go to Haiti try to see places other than Petionville. Its obvious that you hung out with those mulatres who love France, qand who deny any connection to Africa.

In the 1953 census only 25% of Cubans were black or mulato. Indeed only around 12% were black. There were 7 million people in Cuba. The blacks were located within a majority white culture and would have had undergone massive cultural transformations in order to succeed or even survive in such a society.

Now compare that to Haiti, which is over 95% black, and most of this black population had minimal exposure to the type of slavery and colonialism which would have forced massive transformation of their culture. Because this contected ended in 1789/1804. Of the "creole" blacks its quite obvious that Haitians are the least creolized of all, retaining way more of their African culture.

You need to know that while music and religion are important elements of African culture it is not all. Now one can say that Cuba has retained massive elements of African religions as did Haiti. One can say that there is much that is very African in Cuban music and dance as is true for Haiti. But one will also be forced to admit that Cubans blacks also absorbed way more Spanish culture than did your average Haitian black absorb French culture.

Now consider this. 17% of the slaves who entered the Americas went to French colonies. Clearly most to Haiti and Guadeloupe and Martinique are relatively small islands.

18% went to Spanish colonies. Given that Mexico and Colombia imported significant numbers of slaves as well, and given that the importation into the Spanish colonies began around 1520 and continued well beyond the mid 19th century (most of these slaves dying within 10 years of arrival. it seems clear to me that Haiti, rather than Cuba, represents a concentration of slave importation. Because most of these slaves arrived within 100 years of the Revolution. Of the huge number of slaves which you mention into Cuba. some were transhipped, and in any case this represented importation over a 350 year period.

In 1789 when the Revolution began there were over 500,000 slaves. In 1953 there were just over 700,000 blacks in Cuba, some of whom were Antillean sugar workers..
No one disputed anything about Haiti. Stick to the subject and what is being discussed.
 
Old 11-06-2013, 06:44 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,677,292 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Dont know why you continue to peddle the nonsense that Haitians are less African than Cubans. Next time you go to Haiti try to see places other than Petionville. Its obvious that you hung out with those mulatres who love France, qand who deny any connection to Africa.

In the 1953 census only 25% of Cubans were black or mulato. Indeed only around 12% were black. There were 7 million people in Cuba. The blacks were located within a majority white culture and would have had undergone massive cultural transformations in order to succeed or even survive in such a society.

Now compare that to Haiti, which is over 95% black, and most of this black population had minimal exposure to the type of slavery and colonialism which would have forced massive transformation of their culture. Because this contected ended in 1789/1804. Of the "creole" blacks its quite obvious that Haitians are the least creolized of all, retaining way more of their African culture.

You need to know that while music and religion are important elements of African culture it is not all. Now one can say that Cuba has retained massive elements of African religions as did Haiti. One can say that there is much that is very African in Cuban music and dance as is true for Haiti. But one will also be forced to admit that Cubans blacks also absorbed way more Spanish culture than did your average Haitian black absorb French culture.

Now consider this. 17% of the slaves who entered the Americas went to French colonies. Clearly most to Haiti and Guadeloupe and Martinique are relatively small islands.

18% went to Spanish colonies. Given that Mexico and Colombia imported significant numbers of slaves as well, and given that the importation into the Spanish colonies began around 1520 and continued well beyond the mid 19th century (most of these slaves dying within 10 years of arrival. it seems clear to me that Haiti, rather than Cuba, represents a concentration of slave importation. Because most of these slaves arrived within 100 years of the Revolution. Of the huge number of slaves which you mention into Cuba. some were transhipped, and in any case this represented importation over a 350 year period.

In 1789 when the Revolution began there were over 500,000 slaves. In 1953 there were just over 700,000 blacks in Cuba, some of whom were Antillean sugar workers..
LOL. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about and going soley by what you read in a damn textbook. Make sure you actually travel.

And btw, There are many Cubans that speak Creole Spanish. And there are many Cubans that still speak African languages.

Again, no one denied or even mentioned the African ness of Haiti.

Each place on the globe expresses it's African ness in different ways.
 
Old 11-06-2013, 06:48 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,677,292 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
The Haitian ELITE have much French influences. The Haitian black masses are way more African than Cuban blacks are.

Be logical. After 1804 there were very few whites left in Haiti. Cuba has always had a white majority, which soared even further after many Spanish migrants moved there in the 19th and 20th centuries. A Cuban black would have had to survive within a Spanish dominated society. Not only the elites, but even among teh working class. Indeed the very composition of the Afrodescendant population in Cuba, comapred to Haiti indicates ths high level of contact.

The vast majority of Afrodescendants are black, and its probably that most are 100% African. In Cuba the mulato population is way bigger than then black population, and blacks have high levels of social contact with whites and mulatos.

So why will your typical Haitian, who was separated from French colonial rule in 1804, and who is socially isolated from the Francophile elites, be less African than a Cuban black who must daily interact with Cuban whites in a society which has ALWAYS been dominated by whites. Cubans blacks not being an isolated group?

The big difference beteen Haitians and other blacks in the Americas is that they were separated from Euro dominated societies at an early period of their settlement in the Americas. Unlike others, they did not under go a period of colonialism. And also unlike others the educational system was (and is) very undevloped so most Haitians were isolated from European ways ofr thinking.


Put a typical Haitian next to a West African. It will amze you as to how similar they are. Put qa Cuban black and its obvious which belongs to which group. And I have been in AfroCuban gatherings so I know what I am talking about.

You might as well claim that white Cubans are more African than Haitian peasants/urban poor at this rate.
LOL. Afro Cubans are just as African as Afro Haitians and vice versa. No one is more African than the other.

And Afro Haitians have influences from the French and even Spanish. There are many aspects of French that influence all Haitians just as Spanish has influenced Afro Cubans.
 
Old 11-07-2013, 02:23 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,941,189 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
Wait, Hold up. For starters, NO one said Haitians were less African than Cubans or others. Please post where such was said on here by me or anyone else please.....? Don't put words in my mouth because I never said Haitians were more or less African than anyone else. In fact, Haiti wasn't even mentioned here until YOU brought it up. I don't know why you like to make ASSumptions and peddle nonsense.

And frankly the whole idea of one being more or less African then the other. If talking about aspects of traditions that are African or African derived is another angle or aspect with which to look at things.

As for slaves and amounts etc, Cuba received and absorbed between 1.3 million to 2 million plus slaves between 1492 and 1886. They received the most slaves imported of any Caribbean island or region. There was lots of illegal importation of slaves that occurred thoughout much of the 19th century.

I never said such to take away or add from or to Haiti. Your mentioning of Haiti here is really irrelevant.

Again, this is about the African cultural aesthetics and traditions etc.

By saying that Cubans and Brazilians are the most African of those in the TransAtlantic African diaspora you are indeed implying that Haitians are less African.

As to numbers of slaves imported.

1. Cuba received slaves from the early 16 th century through to the mid 19th. Many of these were transshipped definitely to Mexico where in the 16th century they privded a large part of the labor force. Also to other Spanish colonies.

2. The French colonies imported alomost as many as the Spanish colonies COMBINED. Haiti clearly accounted for the bulk of that as Guadeloupe and Martinique are relatively small. In the late 17th there were very few slaves in St Domingue, but 100 years later there were 500,000. We are talking about a massive group of slaves in a relatively small space. Taking into account the high mortality rates of African born slaves 9which is why the US planters preferred to "breed" rather than import), one can only wonder how many slaves were imported into St Domingue in that 100 year period!

The USA, much bigger had about 700,000 at the same time. Most of these bring born in the USA, as the planters preferred to "breed" their own slaves, rather than import, so the USA was the only major slave society in the Americas where the slave population grew. Elsewhere slaves were imported to replace those who died.

So Haiti had a massive slave population for its size. We are talking about slaves PRESENT at a specific period (1789). Not the amount imported over a 250 year period, especiallya s most of these importd died within 10 years.

3. Unlike Haiti Cubans blacks have had to interact with a large non black community. Indeed even in the other parts of the Caribbean the ongoi9ng post slavery period, where plantations were still mainly white owned/managed, and where the colonial education system served to replace the value systems that these descendants of slaves had with more Euro focused values.

Haiti, as you well know, did a very poor job in educating the bulk of its people. And the almost complete expulsion of whites, and concentration of mulatos as a mainly land owning, yet urban dwelling group at the top of the heirarchy, meant that most Haitians had limited contact with westernizing systems.


So we have the maroons scattered around South America (Colombia, Brazil and especially Suriname) being the most African, because they were the most isolated. Then the Haitian peasantry.

When it comes to the rest of us I agree that it makes no sense to argue who is or who isnt the most African. I cannot say with certainly about whether Cuban blacks are more "African" than rural Jamaicans. I can definitely say that Jamaicans, on average, are more African than Barbadians, and I can tell you why. Whether Afro Trinis are more African than Jamaicans is a matter of debate, though its indeed a fact that there is way more African retention in religion on that island than in Jamaica. Trinidad having a shango religion with rituals performed in Yoruba.

I can say that African Americans have gone the furthest in developing a culture which is relatively remote from subSaharan Africam, with the obvious exceptions of New Orleans and the Sea Islands of SC. This is not to suggest that they lack an interesting culture. Indeed AA styles and imagery is found every where that one can find blacks, and a whole other places where they arent too many.
 
Old 06-23-2014, 01:06 AM
 
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Reputation: 10
Cubans are white ( European Spanish ) The Spaniards have some middle eastern in their heritage because of their being conquered by them at one time so long ago. Africans or Haitian or of similiar who settled in Cuba then later escaped communist Cuba are Cubans too but there are white Cubans of the original European descent as well as the black people who settled in Cuba. People get that mixed up way too often. I am Caucasian Cuban American born in the U.S. I have medium brown hair and pale skin although I do not burn, I just tan without turning red but the tan fades just like any Caucasian. My brother has blue eyes, my dad has green eyes, my sister has very light brown, straight hair. I think the confusion comes from not knowing the history of Cuba.
 
Old 06-23-2014, 06:01 AM
 
1,471 posts, read 1,631,496 times
Reputation: 755
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
LOL. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about and going soley by what you read in a damn textbook. Make sure you actually travel.

And btw, There are many Cubans that speak Creole Spanish. And there are many Cubans that still speak African languages.

Again, no one denied or even mentioned the African ness of Haiti.

Each place on the globe expresses it's African ness in different ways.


Cubans speak a Canarian dialect of Spanish, but Spanish.
African languages do not really exist, but rather gibberish like ņaņigo, a "germania" or "secret words" used in religions, etc.
In Cuba, "africaness" is some congo dance for tourists.
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