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Old 01-13-2012, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,589 posts, read 4,670,398 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ♥♥PRINC3Ss♥♥ View Post
That's the attitude of many people in the US and the wealthy people in latin america I think it is just easier for them to see all like black and white than to think there are good human beings living in those areas. They rarely interact with them so they don't care.

The system is far from perfect but they think it is.

What are you talking about?

Maybe the "system" is not working in Colombia, with its right-wing government...

But in Brazil, with its left-wing government, the "system" is working very weel. In the past 8 years, the face of the Brazilian slums changed a lot. Each day that passes, those comunities are lesser and lesser poor. Each day that passes, the living conditions of people there improve more and more

90% of people in the slums are working hard, earning their money, and improving their lives. Only a minority of 10% choose the path of drugs and crime, because they want, not because they are "forced". And because they choose that path, NOBODY cares when they get a bullet in their heads in the internal disputes of the criminals. Not even their neighboors in the slums care about it. Criminals are despised by their hardworking neighbors.
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Old 01-13-2012, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,589 posts, read 4,670,398 times
Reputation: 1572
ROCINHA is the biggest slum in Brazil, located in the city of Rio de Janeiro.

Do you wanna see how is life inside Rocinha?

So, watch these videos:






So, can you see the reality now?

Yes, people there are poor. But they are not "starving". They have solid houses, they have cool clothes, they have water and electricity, they have TVs, DVD players, they have rental video stores, they have leisure and a social life.
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Old 01-13-2012, 09:41 AM
 
2,930 posts, read 6,208,876 times
Reputation: 1376
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalaMan View Post
What are you talking about?

Maybe the "system" is not working in Colombia, with its right-wing government...

But in Brazil, with its left-wing government, the "system" is working very weel. In the past 8 years, the face of the Brazilian slums changed a lot. Each day that passes, those comunities are lesser and lesser poor. Each day that passes, the living conditions of people there improve more and more

90% of people in the slums are working hard, earning their money, and improving their lives. Only a minority of 10% choose the path of drugs and crime, because they want, not because they are "forced". And because they choose that path, NOBODY cares when they get a bullet in their heads in the internal disputes of the criminals. Not even their neighboors in the slums care about it. Criminals are despised by their hardworking neighbors.
You know very little of Colombia obviously. You should know Brazil is getting a lot of ideas my hometown Medellin(and we have gotten a lot from Brazil also in the past) The right wing in Colombia is very different than the one in the US.

Nobody cares? How can you speak for thousands of people just because you happened to visit some favelas once in a while? I'm sure some people care, criminals have mothers and friends and at some point many were innocent children. Also innocent people get hurt or killed once in a while. Shootings are not an exact science. People get tired of seeing blood, seeing their neighborhood kids turn into criminals, hearing shootings every day or every weekend. How many shootings did you hear when you visited those favelas? How many dead bodies have you seen on the floor? How many of your friends have died or lost a finger? Again it's not all black and white, some criminals are garbage, some are not, and some innocent people get hurt with stray bullets. Its a social problem but I agree with you the cause is not extreme poverty but economics do play a role otherwise it would be common in the wealthy neighborhoods.

The real question is why some countries that are much poorer in the world don't have these high homocide rates? Honestly I have no idea. Now will tourists be safe? Sure, if they use common sense and follow safety advisories. The same is true for many Latin American countries.

Last edited by ♥♥PRINC3Ss♥♥; 01-13-2012 at 09:49 AM..
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,589 posts, read 4,670,398 times
Reputation: 1572
Quote:
Originally Posted by ♥♥PRINC3Ss♥♥ View Post

Nobody cares? How can you speak for thousands of people just because you happened to visit some favelas once in a while? I'm sure some people care, criminals have mothers and friends and at some point many were innocent children. Also innocent people get hurt or killed once in a while. Shootings are not an exact science. People get tired of seeing blood, seeing their neighborhood kids turn into criminals, hearing shootings every day or every weekend. How many shootings did you hear when you visited those favelas? How many dead bodies have you seen on the floor? How many of your friends have died or lost a finger? Again it's not all black and white, some criminals are garbage, some are not, and some innocent people get hurt with stray bullets. Its a social problem but I agree with you the cause is not extreme poverty but economics do play a role otherwise it would be common in the wealthy neighborhoods.

The real question is why some countries that are much poorer in the world don't have these high homocide rates? Honestly I have no idea. Now will tourists be safe? Sure, if they use common sense and follow safety advisories. The same is true for many Latin American countries.


Some points:


- I don't go in the slums "once in a while". Actually, I'm almost a "PhD" in slums. I go in slums VERY OFTEN. I have MANY friends who live in slums. I know the reality in the slums VERY WELL. I know EXACTLY what the working people in the slums think. They refer to the criminals as "vagabundo" (vagabond). They feel REALLY happy when a known criminal of the slum is found dead in the morning. They may feel sorry for the parents of the criminal, when the parents are honest people, and give condolences to them, but they feel very happy to see one less "vagabundo" in their community.


- I don't know how usual the shootings are in the slums of Colombia, but in Brazil, the shootings are almost an exclusivity of the city of Rio de Janeiro. In the slums of the other big cities, you don't see shootings in the slums that often. In all of the other cities, besides Rio de Janeiro, the police goes everyday in the slums, and have free access to it. There are no "areas controlled by the criminals" in the other cities, those areas only exist in Rio. In the two largest "favelas" of Sao Paulo, for example, Heliopolis and Paraisopolis, the police can enter at any time, without being "received" by shootings. The criminals run and hide when the police is coming, they don't confront the police. Confronting the police is an exclusivity of the Rio de Janeiro gangs.


- You ask if crime is a "social problem", in the sense of being caused by poverty. Many people, specially in the left, think that crime is a "social problem". But some people, even being left-wing people, are already starting to question this concept of "social problem". You have pointed the big question yourself: "why some countries that are much poorer in the world don't have these high homocide rates?". So, why? Why crime is not that high in India, that has a much poorer population than Brazil and Colombia? That's the proof that crime is NOT caused by poverty. Crime is caused by DRUGS. The drug traffic is the real cause for the rise of crime in Brazil, Colombia, and other Latin American countries. Crime in Brazil was low until the 70's, before drug trafficking gangs started to plague the slums of the country, associated to the international traffickers.
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Old 01-13-2012, 05:20 PM
 
2 posts, read 2,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ♥♥PRINC3Ss♥♥ View Post
The right wing in Colombia is very different than the one in the US.
What makes the right wing in Latin America different from the right wing in the USA?
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Old 01-13-2012, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,412,150 times
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In almost every country, first world, second or third, nearly all the murders take place in the underworld, where ordinary responsible people who are playing their part in the economy and the society of the nation, never go and have no acquaintances. Perps and victims alike are a part of the social underbelly of the country, and murder is in the palette of problem resolution among that demographic, but most people go their entire life without rubbing shoulders with it.

How many of those there are, nobody knows. How many the authorities know about depends on how determined the perps are to hide the bodies.

The murder rate in East St. Louis Illinois means absolutely nothing to a receptionist or a bank teller or a teacher of a nurse 20 miles away in Red Bud, Illinois, nor the other direction in Bellefontaine, Missouri. None of their lives will ever be affected by a murder in an East St. Louis alley over a gambling debt or a drug deal or a hooker.

It's the same in Brazil. Homicides are a way of life among a certain strata of the country, and for everyone else, life goes on as though there are a lot of other every day problems than what the underworld is up to.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:04 PM
 
2,930 posts, read 6,208,876 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
In almost every country, first world, second or third, nearly all the murders take place in the underworld, where ordinary responsible people who are playing their part in the economy and the society of the nation, never go and have no acquaintances. Perps and victims alike are a part of the social underbelly of the country, and murder is in the palette of problem resolution among that demographic, but most people go their entire life without rubbing shoulders with it.

How many of those there are, nobody knows. How many the authorities know about depends on how determined the perps are to hide the bodies.

The murder rate in East St. Louis Illinois means absolutely nothing to a receptionist or a bank teller or a teacher of a nurse 20 miles away in Red Bud, Illinois, nor the other direction in Bellefontaine, Missouri. None of their lives will ever be affected by a murder in an East St. Louis alley over a gambling debt or a drug deal or a hooker.

It's the same in Brazil. Homicides are a way of life among a certain strata of the country, and for everyone else, life goes on as though there are a lot of other every day problems than what the underworld is up to.
You cannot compare the USA to other countries. You are talking about US ghettos. Many dangerous neighborhoods in South America are composed of hard working people including bank tellers and school teachers.
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Old 01-13-2012, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Scotland
7,972 posts, read 10,113,379 times
Reputation: 4093
Innocent people get murdered all the time, most of the murders I hear about from my country are random or domestic murders, they seem to outnumber the "underworld murders" for every gang killing there seems be 2 or 3 times more random, wrong place wrong time and domestic violence murders. And I severely doubt that a lot more innocent people aren't being murdered in Brazil (yes the majority will be gang members, but there innocents caught up in it) with the amount of shootouts and remorseless hoodlums in Rio's slums

Dancing with the Devil - Dancing with the Devil - Channel 4

http://dancingwiththedevilthemovie.com/

I watched this documentary and the situation looked bad.
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Old 01-15-2012, 05:43 AM
 
1,487 posts, read 2,058,742 times
Reputation: 936
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
It's not hatred of Brazil, more like envy in a weird way. Americans are noticing Brazil is booming and on its way to becoming a serious rival in the Americas. So they go like, ne ne ne ne ne ne, this or that is one aspect where the US is still better than you
Absolutely. The more competitive a nation becomes the more envy will be directed toward that nation. The US is certainly losing its clout in the world and these types of comments are a defense mechanism. It's as natural as you can get. This is just a "grin and bear it" situation. We all know that Brazil is a great country and destined to become even greater. China is again "rising from the ashes" as she has done so often in her history. This makes the present power brokers both nervous and envious. So goes the world. Statistic mean little to me. Being an American (US) I am well aware of our ability to manipulate statistics. I suppose other nations have developed the same distasteful defense mechanism.
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