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View Poll Results: Which country?
Brazil 26 37.14%
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Colombia 3 4.29%
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Panama 12 17.14%
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Old 11-04-2013, 03:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
Cuba was on the brink of a Cuban Civil Rights Movement for blacks and mulattoes and people of color in Cuba when the Cuban Revolution occurred in 1959 and the 1960s

True and Castro crushed it. What should be noted is that it had a critical mass of blacks/dark mulatos who had the education and the experience, in 1959, to attempt this.

It took Brazil way into the 90s to do this. And this after a large pool of successful US blacks became visible to the average Brazilian, in the media, and often on the beaches of Rio and the streets of Salvador.

 
Old 11-04-2013, 11:19 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,672,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
What are you talking about? You haven't the slightest clue of what you are talking about.*

The term colonial black IS indeed used to refer to blacks living in Panama since the beginning of or during the colonial period up until 1854. It also includes Black Colombians living in Panama as well, which Panama was apart of and attached to until 1903/1904 and officially until 1921/1922. It's often an ASSumed stereotype or perceived by some English speaking people that Latin peoples of color possess a more colonial mindset or is more anti black etc, even though the African diaspora in all areas of the globe has issues, as does any other groups including even white people.

Also keep in mind that the creation and independence of Panama was NOT of Panama or Panamanian peoples own making. The Panamanians did NOT want or ask to become it's own nation. It had no plans for independence. Panama as a nation came about as a French conception and idea along with support and collusion and backing with the USA and Colombian conservative party elites. Panama was created in Wall Street for profit abd to carve a Canal in and out of it. If USA was for the interest of Panamanian nationhood or the Department of Panama, they wouldn't have bribed and paid Colombian CONSERVATIVE elites (who could care less about the fate of Panama likewise) millions of dollars over multiple generations and continually spy on and violate international laws. It was only a tiny few members of the Colombian Liberal Party in the Department of Panama that stressed Panama to be autonomous but still part of Colombia and possibly independent to get it's own way with Colombia. Many departments and regions in Colombia demanded or brought up the idea of autonomy or possible independence from Colombia but they all very much just wanted more support and less turmoil and war and less negative division from the Colombian Liberal and Conservative parties. But there was no plans of independence from Colombia. The people that worked in collusion with the USA from Panama hadn't even been born in the Department of Panama but in the other parts of what is now modern day Colombia proper. So we have to take that into context.

In the beginning West Indian blacks were faring better than most or many Panamanians of all races due to their having access to working with the USA and canal projects and any other administrative unit under USA control. In addition English speaking West Indians spoke ENGLISH, which many Panamanians didn't speak. So the Panamanians had lots of antagonism and hostility towards West Indians. During the 1940s, thrice president Arnulfo Arias passed xenophobic laws that blacks who spoke English were PROHIBITED to immigrate to Panama and other people prohibited to immigrate to Panama were the Chinese, Orientals, Asians, Arabs, Middle Easterners and people from India. They were considered undesirable and unassimilable foreigners and aliens. In addition any English speaking West Indian or any other "undesirables" living in or born in Panama to West Indian parents in Panama after 1929 were not allowed to obtain Panamanian citizenship and those that had citizenships but weren't born before 1929 had their Panamanian citizenships revoked. The xenophobic laws made an exception to Latin American immigrants and Latin American blacks, as Latin Americans were believed to be and perceived to be more culturally and linguistically alike and as kin so, black Latin peoples were accepted as desirable immigrants. Panamanians of colonial black descent were protected. However any assumptions that a colonial black was West Indian caused a lot of controversy and friction, and made things tougher for all blacks in Panama. Those "undesirables" immigrants and descendants of such and West Indians, especially that were legally allowed or protected had to wait until after the age of 18 or 21 to be allowed Panamanian citizenship and/or they had to speak only or primarily Spanish and they were required to be tested for or of and/or know certain things about proficiency in Panamanian culture, history, and traditions in order to maintain or be allowed to have citizenship. In addition there were many West Indians living in the Panama Canal Zone so many had no sense of identity or were confused. It's as if they were U.S. Americans, Panamanians, and Bajans/Barbadians, or whichever other West Indian region etc and many still loyal to British crown had to reach out to British crown to assure their protection and rights and support, which many felt was lacking or limited. So many felt they were all of these things and identities but none of them at the same time. Spanish speaking colonial blacks were protected under Panamanian law as Panamanian citizens, so they didn't face the same treatment or discrimination as West Indians. Some colonial blacks also were stressed by the elite Panamanians, rabiblancos, as true bonafide Panamanians when West Indians started to arrive to Panama. So in many ways the immigration of West Indian blacks to Panama, helped to assimilate the colonial blacks into Panamanian culture as true Panamanians.

West Indian descent blacks advocated for black rights or West Indian rights due to the xenophobia they once faced especially being pawns of the U.S. Americans which many Panamanians didn't like since they *were critical of the USA and their interference and pulling the strings of power in their lands, especially since it was the USA that desperately brought the West Indians to Panama as a labor task force for the Canal. West Indians were NOT the only ones to build the canal though as a labor task force.


So the political semantics often falsely equate the term black with West Indian descent and vice versa when they are not one and the same. Also West Indians of ALL races and racial mixtures, including WHITE West Indians, immigrated to Panama. Many Caribbean Jews came to Panama as well.

A significant portion of West Indians and West Indian descendants in Panama would eventually move to the USA, or even back to the Caribbean islands and nations. This also may explain why many people ASSume Panamanians are black or that Panamanians are a West Indian people, because of what they see in the USA or abroad. Panamanians of West Indian descent are a minority of the Panamanian black population in Panama, and a sizeable tiny minority in the overall general Panamanian population.

Also be careful which Panamanians you speak to, especially Panamanians and people that claim Panamanian descent in the USA. Many Panamanians and their descendants in the USA often are not fully knowledgeable on Panama, and the ones that are or claim to be knowledgable often have missed out on the deep in depth nooks and crannies information on black culture and history in Panama. People also seem to think Colon is the only area where blacks are in Panama when that is far from the case. Blacks are everywhere in Panama. Colonial blacks are more widespread in Panama and scattered out than those of West Indian descent. The numbers of West Indian descendants in Panama over the years have decreased due to many of them immigrating to the USA and abroad and disproportionately high rates. Many Panamanians abroad often may not know about other areas of Panama but the capital or Colon City.

Colonial blacks have been very influential in Panamanian society especially in the literary, cultural political national stage and arena and the colonial black communities have contributed some outstanding figures to Panama. Some important figures of colonial black heritage are the late Juan Materno Vazquez de Leon, Gucimerinda Paz, Sara Sotillo Guillen, Hector Valdez Carasquilla, Secundino Torres Gudiño, Bayano, Felipillo, Domingo Congo, Pedro Casanga*José del Carmen de los Dolores Escobar who was better known as Frederico*Escobar,*Crescenciano Vásquez Salazar,*Eusebio Pedroza, Carlos Antonio Mendoza Soto, and Lucy Molinar who is also known as the Panamnian Oprah.

In addition there are significant numbers of and still continuing immigration of Dominicans and Colombians to Panama.

Colombians are the largest immigrant group in the Republic of Panama

As for Colon, that is not the only area where blacks live. And it actually rivaled the wealth and success of the capital Panama City, since Colon was where all commerce and trade and immigration was entering into the Republic of Panama as well as to or through that side of the Canal Zone which USA watched and guarded and controlled carefully. Colon City was so wealthy and successful especially with it's burgeoning middle and even upper professional classes of West Indians that Colon City was referred to as "Tasa de Oro" or Teaspoon of Gold. The proffesional classes consisted of very united and well to do West Indian families that included ambitious lawyers, doctors, people that worked in schools, or Canal comission workers, and buisness peoples and owners, and traders etc. Colon City took a big hit in the 1960s and especially the 1970s and began to go into significant economic decline when most of it's cream of the crop and successful community members began to leave for the USA, and some to other places abroad like the UK, and Canada. Several thousand left Panama, so there was a shift, and then also with better infrastructure built in Panama connecting Colon with the rest of Panama, many people from Colon left for the capital or surrounding areas in Panama province. Colon City is considered a poverty stricken city and economically depressed one. Many Greeks, Asians and and East Indians and descendants of such own businesses and other trades and deals of success in Colon city as does the rabiblancos, which are the colonial descended white elites of Panama (similar to the bekés of Martinique).

Another ongoing and important controversial issue that some colonial blacks in Panama are facing is displacement from their homelands, similar to what's going on in Colombia with black land claim and entitlement rights. In the Archipielago of the Pearl Islands of Panama, located on the pacific side and pacific coasts of Panama, several thousand blacks and black communities have lived and inhabited these lands, since the early 1500s, and many also escaped to these lands for freedom as cimarrones (maroons). Many were forced to be pearl divers to help cultivate the pearl fisheries to help the Spanish turn a profit in colonial trade and fortunes. Many of these black pearl divers drowned or were killed eaten alive by sharks that roamed these waters, and some may have committed suicide or were killed by their European masters. There were also many Ladinos that settled in the Pearl Islands which were black Africans born and reared and raised in Spain and Hispanicized and Roman Catholicized and Spanish speaking and Spaniard citizens and subjects. Basically they were blacks from the Iberian Peninsula. Many were sent to Panama and other Spanish colonies as conquistadores and/or as indentured servants. These "Ladinos" were preferred over "bozales" which were slaves brought in directly from Africa, who were often times believed to be more likely to put up a fight and rebel. And the Spanish amassed a fortune off of the expense of the labor they forced the black Africans in the pearl fisheries of the Pearl Islands to do for them.

Now, the elites after having neglected the Pearl Islands generations and centuries left it to the colonial blacks that have lived in this region since the 1500s, all of a sudden want to build hotels, resorts and other commercial sectors and businesses on the island. Isla Contadora was the first big controversy in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s and displaced many of the local colonial blacks due to construction of hotels, resorts, and casinos etc. Then in the 2001s the Eleta family, which is a rabiblancos elite white family of Panama has tried to claim the lands of Pedro Gonzalez Island, and implemented construction on the colonial black lands, when some have land titles and/or have lived there their entire lives as did their ancestors since the 1500s. So there is protest for equality of blacks and respect for their lands and some activists want to declare the Pearl Islands as part of full black land claim entitlement rights.*
I also forgot to mention that some West Indians and other targeted groups deemed undesirable in Panama such as the Chinese would marry Panamanian citizens to protect themselves from being deported or so that they can keep or maintain residencies and citizenships in Panama.
 
Old 11-07-2013, 03:22 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,925,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
I also forgot to mention that some West Indians and other targeted groups deemed undesirable in Panama such as the Chinese would marry Panamanian citizens to protect themselves from being deported or so that they can keep or maintain residencies and citizenships in Panama.

I am reading the articles which you posted. The issue is that West Indians were/are pegged as the "blacks" in Panama. Non black Panamanians have found other ways to describe Afrocolonials. Sometime sven folding them into the mestizo population, this as a way of "hiding" them.

The "black" political voi8ce in Panama is disproportionately West Indian...so those articles claim.

So this is why people often equate black Panamanian=West Indian Panamanian, because the elites surely perpetuate that myth. AfroColonials seemingly lack a voice outside of the cultural space that they have carved out.

What is clear is that the image that the elite wishes to project of Panama is that it is a mestizo nation. the black population (both AfroAntillano and AfroColonial) are under represented in prestige occuipations in their booming commercial sectors. AfroAntillanos seem to be more likely to complain about this, and to demand space. The article seems to argue that AfroColonials benefit from this, as the Hispanization of the AfroAntillano means that there is decreasing cultiral difference between the two groups.

I will suggest that the Panamanians West Indian one will find in NYC is frozen in time, still speaking English with a West Indian accent, and Spanish as a second language.
 
Old 11-08-2013, 10:52 PM
 
Location: COLORADO SPRINGS
78 posts, read 166,406 times
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Cuba because of communism hands down! Then Colombia, Then Brazil...
 
Old 11-09-2013, 07:50 PM
 
367 posts, read 760,743 times
Reputation: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
What are you talking about? You haven't the slightest clue of what you are talking about.*

The term colonial black IS indeed used to refer to blacks living in Panama since the beginning of or during the colonial period up until 1854. It also includes Black Colombians living in Panama as well, which Panama was apart of and attached to until 1903/1904 and officially until 1921/1922. It's often an ASSumed stereotype or perceived by some English speaking people that Latin peoples of color possess a more colonial mindset or is more anti black etc, even though the African diaspora in all areas of the globe has issues, as does any other groups including even white people.

Also keep in mind that the creation and independence of Panama was NOT of Panama or Panamanian peoples own making. The Panamanians did NOT want or ask to become it's own nation. It had no plans for independence. Panama as a nation came about as a French conception and idea along with support and collusion and backing with the USA and Colombian conservative party elites. Panama was created in Wall Street for profit abd to carve a Canal in and out of it. If USA was for the interest of Panamanian nationhood or the Department of Panama, they wouldn't have bribed and paid Colombian CONSERVATIVE elites (who could care less about the fate of Panama likewise) millions of dollars over multiple generations and continually spy on and violate international laws. It was only a tiny few members of the Colombian Liberal Party in the Department of Panama that stressed Panama to be autonomous but still part of Colombia and possibly independent to get it's own way with Colombia. Many departments and regions in Colombia demanded or brought up the idea of autonomy or possible independence from Colombia but they all very much just wanted more support and less turmoil and war and less negative division from the Colombian Liberal and Conservative parties. But there was no plans of independence from Colombia. The people that worked in collusion with the USA from Panama hadn't even been born in the Department of Panama but in the other parts of what is now modern day Colombia proper. So we have to take that into context.

In the beginning West Indian blacks were faring better than most or many Panamanians of all races due to their having access to working with the USA and canal projects and any other administrative unit under USA control. In addition English speaking West Indians spoke ENGLISH, which many Panamanians didn't speak. So the Panamanians had lots of antagonism and hostility towards West Indians. During the 1940s, thrice president Arnulfo Arias passed xenophobic laws that blacks who spoke English were PROHIBITED to immigrate to Panama and other people prohibited to immigrate to Panama were the Chinese, Orientals, Asians, Arabs, Middle Easterners and people from India. They were considered undesirable and unassimilable foreigners and aliens. In addition any English speaking West Indian or any other "undesirables" living in or born in Panama to West Indian parents in Panama after 1929 were not allowed to obtain Panamanian citizenship and those that had citizenships but weren't born before 1929 had their Panamanian citizenships revoked. The xenophobic laws made an exception to Latin American immigrants and Latin American blacks, as Latin Americans were believed to be and perceived to be more culturally and linguistically alike and as kin so, black Latin peoples were accepted as desirable immigrants. Panamanians of colonial black descent were protected. However any assumptions that a colonial black was West Indian caused a lot of controversy and friction, and made things tougher for all blacks in Panama. Those "undesirables" immigrants and descendants of such and West Indians, especially that were legally allowed or protected had to wait until after the age of 18 or 21 to be allowed Panamanian citizenship and/or they had to speak only or primarily Spanish and they were required to be tested for or of and/or know certain things about proficiency in Panamanian culture, history, and traditions in order to maintain or be allowed to have citizenship. In addition there were many West Indians living in the Panama Canal Zone so many had no sense of identity or were confused. It's as if they were U.S. Americans, Panamanians, and Bajans/Barbadians, or whichever other West Indian region etc and many still loyal to British crown had to reach out to British crown to assure their protection and rights and support, which many felt was lacking or limited. So many felt they were all of these things and identities but none of them at the same time. Spanish speaking colonial blacks were protected under Panamanian law as Panamanian citizens, so they didn't face the same treatment or discrimination as West Indians. Some colonial blacks also were stressed by the elite Panamanians, rabiblancos, as true bonafide Panamanians when West Indians started to arrive to Panama. So in many ways the immigration of West Indian blacks to Panama, helped to assimilate the colonial blacks into Panamanian culture as true Panamanians.

West Indian descent blacks advocated for black rights or West Indian rights due to the xenophobia they once faced especially being pawns of the U.S. Americans which many Panamanians didn't like since they *were critical of the USA and their interference and pulling the strings of power in their lands, especially since it was the USA that desperately brought the West Indians to Panama as a labor task force for the Canal. West Indians were NOT the only ones to build the canal though as a labor task force.


So the political semantics often falsely equate the term black with West Indian descent and vice versa when they are not one and the same. Also West Indians of ALL races and racial mixtures, including WHITE West Indians, immigrated to Panama. Many Caribbean Jews came to Panama as well.

A significant portion of West Indians and West Indian descendants in Panama would eventually move to the USA, or even back to the Caribbean islands and nations. This also may explain why many people ASSume Panamanians are black or that Panamanians are a West Indian people, because of what they see in the USA or abroad. Panamanians of West Indian descent are a minority of the Panamanian black population in Panama, and a sizeable tiny minority in the overall general Panamanian population.

Also be careful which Panamanians you speak to, especially Panamanians and people that claim Panamanian descent in the USA. Many Panamanians and their descendants in the USA often are not fully knowledgeable on Panama, and the ones that are or claim to be knowledgable often have missed out on the deep in depth nooks and crannies information on black culture and history in Panama. People also seem to think Colon is the only area where blacks are in Panama when that is far from the case. Blacks are everywhere in Panama. Colonial blacks are more widespread in Panama and scattered out than those of West Indian descent. The numbers of West Indian descendants in Panama over the years have decreased due to many of them immigrating to the USA and abroad and disproportionately high rates. Many Panamanians abroad often may not know about other areas of Panama but the capital or Colon City.

Colonial blacks have been very influential in Panamanian society especially in the literary, cultural political national stage and arena and the colonial black communities have contributed some outstanding figures to Panama. Some important figures of colonial black heritage are the late Juan Materno Vazquez de Leon, Gucimerinda Paz, Sara Sotillo Guillen, Hector Valdez Carasquilla, Secundino Torres Gudiño, Bayano, Felipillo, Domingo Congo, Pedro Casanga*José del Carmen de los Dolores Escobar who was better known as Frederico*Escobar,*Crescenciano Vásquez Salazar,*Eusebio Pedroza, Carlos Antonio Mendoza Soto, and Lucy Molinar who is also known as the Panamnian Oprah.

In addition there are significant numbers of and still continuing immigration of Dominicans and Colombians to Panama.

Colombians are the largest immigrant group in the Republic of Panama

As for Colon, that is not the only area where blacks live. And it actually rivaled the wealth and success of the capital Panama City, since Colon was where all commerce and trade and immigration was entering into the Republic of Panama as well as to or through that side of the Canal Zone which USA watched and guarded and controlled carefully. Colon City was so wealthy and successful especially with it's burgeoning middle and even upper professional classes of West Indians that Colon City was referred to as "Tasa de Oro" or Teaspoon of Gold. The proffesional classes consisted of very united and well to do West Indian families that included ambitious lawyers, doctors, people that worked in schools, or Canal comission workers, and buisness peoples and owners, and traders etc. Colon City took a big hit in the 1960s and especially the 1970s and began to go into significant economic decline when most of it's cream of the crop and successful community members began to leave for the USA, and some to other places abroad like the UK, and Canada. Several thousand left Panama, so there was a shift, and then also with better infrastructure built in Panama connecting Colon with the rest of Panama, many people from Colon left for the capital or surrounding areas in Panama province. Colon City is considered a poverty stricken city and economically depressed one. Many Greeks, Asians and and East Indians and descendants of such own businesses and other trades and deals of success in Colon city as does the rabiblancos, which are the colonial descended white elites of Panama (similar to the bekés of Martinique).

Another ongoing and important controversial issue that some colonial blacks in Panama are facing is displacement from their homelands, similar to what's going on in Colombia with black land claim and entitlement rights. In the Archipielago of the Pearl Islands of Panama, located on the pacific side and pacific coasts of Panama, several thousand blacks and black communities have lived and inhabited these lands, since the early 1500s, and many also escaped to these lands for freedom as cimarrones (maroons). Many were forced to be pearl divers to help cultivate the pearl fisheries to help the Spanish turn a profit in colonial trade and fortunes. Many of these black pearl divers drowned or were killed eaten alive by sharks that roamed these waters, and some may have committed suicide or were killed by their European masters. There were also many Ladinos that settled in the Pearl Islands which were black Africans born and reared and raised in Spain and Hispanicized and Roman Catholicized and Spanish speaking and Spaniard citizens and subjects. Basically they were blacks from the Iberian Peninsula. Many were sent to Panama and other Spanish colonies as conquistadores and/or as indentured servants. These "Ladinos" were preferred over "bozales" which were slaves brought in directly from Africa, who were often times believed to be more likely to put up a fight and rebel. And the Spanish amassed a fortune off of the expense of the labor they forced the black Africans in the pearl fisheries of the Pearl Islands to do for them.

Now, the elites after having neglected the Pearl Islands generations and centuries left it to the colonial blacks that have lived in this region since the 1500s, all of a sudden want to build hotels, resorts and other commercial sectors and businesses on the island. Isla Contadora was the first big controversy in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s and displaced many of the local colonial blacks due to construction of hotels, resorts, and casinos etc. Then in the 2001s the Eleta family, which is a rabiblancos elite white family of Panama has tried to claim the lands of Pedro Gonzalez Island, and implemented construction on the colonial black lands, when some have land titles and/or have lived there their entire lives as did their ancestors since the 1500s. So there is protest for equality of blacks and respect for their lands and some activists want to declare the Pearl Islands as part of full black land claim entitlement rights.*
A lot of good info here, what is your heritage/ethnic background ? I am of AfroColombian descent with my heritage stemming from what was colonially known as La Republica De Los Zambos, on the Pacific coast in Southwest Colombia and Northwest Ecuador and some of my family contributed/migrated to the department of Panama (pre-independence Panama)...We can argue "Afrocoloniales" are really just Afrocolombianos, they're just like us from the Pacific coasts and Atlantic coasts of Colombia. Bullerengue and Bunde are Afro genres they sing just like us, Bunde is found on the Pacific coast of Colombia and Bullerengue, on the Atlantic coasts, especially San Basilio de Palenque. Do Afrocolombian descended Panamanians (what Panama today calls Negros Coloniales) identify with us contemporarily? Other Pacific coastal AfroColombians I know have mentioned, they have perceived, attitudes of denial towards their AfroColombian roots and heritage by these Black Panamanians of colonial origin, but they may be individualized experiences. Or maybe it is that those Black people from the department of Panama really never identified with the state of Colombia? Similar to many other Afro people in Colombia today such as Palenqueros, San Andres and Providence Islanders, Chocoanos, and people from other Pacific coastal Afro communities due to the abandonment of the Colombian government in these regions. I am thinking along those lines since you mentioned Colombia did not care at all about the department of Panama, however I would argue that the department of Panama is hard to imagine poorer and more abandoned than the department of Choco and the rest of the Pacific coast because this region is more African and Indigenous than the department of Panama which has had many more mestizos and whites. Historical Panama has been much more like Colombia's atlantic coast demographically due to the large presence of whites and mestizos, than the Pacific coast which is predominantly African and Indigenous.
 
Old 11-09-2013, 09:42 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,672,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rootzdread View Post
A lot of good info here, what is your heritage/ethnic background ? I am of AfroColombian descent with my heritage stemming from what was colonially known as La Republica De Los Zambos, on the Pacific coast in Southwest Colombia and Northwest Ecuador and some of my family contributed/migrated to the department of Panama (pre-independence Panama)...We can argue "Afrocoloniales" are really just Afrocolombianos, they're just like us from the Pacific coasts and Atlantic coasts of Colombia. Bullerengue and Bunde are Afro genres they sing just like us, Bunde is found on the Pacific coast of Colombia and Bullerengue, on the Atlantic coasts, especially San Basilio de Palenque. Do Afrocolombian descended Panamanians (what Panama today calls Negros Coloniales) identify with us contemporarily? Other Pacific coastal AfroColombians I know have mentioned, they have perceived, attitudes of denial towards their AfroColombian roots and heritage by these Black Panamanians of colonial origin, but they may be individualized experiences. Or maybe it is that those Black people from the department of Panama really never identified with the state of Colombia? Similar to many other Afro people in Colombia today such as Palenqueros, San Andres and Providence Islanders, Chocoanos, and people from other Pacific coastal Afro communities due to the abandonment of the Colombian government in these regions. I am thinking along those lines since you mentioned Colombia did not care at all about the department of Panama, however I would argue that the department of Panama is hard to imagine poorer and more abandoned than the department of Choco and the rest of the Pacific coast because this region is more African and Indigenous than the department of Panama which has had many more mestizos and whites. Historical Panama has been much more like Colombia's atlantic coast demographically due to the large presence of whites and mestizos, than the Pacific coast which is predominantly African and Indigenous.
Race and Ethnicity in the formation of
Panamanian National Identity:

http://cidempanama.org/wp-content/up...rixa_Lasso.pdf


Here is one more important link on Afro-Panamanians and identity and racial and ethnic politics:

http://research.unc.edu/files/2012/11/CCM3_033308.pdf
 
Old 11-09-2013, 09:47 PM
 
367 posts, read 760,743 times
Reputation: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
Race and Ethnicity in the formation of
Panamanian National Identity:

http://cidempanama.org/wp-content/up...rixa_Lasso.pdf


Here is one more important link on Afro-Panamanians and identity and racial and ethnic politics:

http://research.unc.edu/files/2012/11/CCM3_033308.pdf
Ok I can read these, does these documents deliver your perspective/answer on my question?
 
Old 11-10-2013, 02:24 AM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,672,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rootzdread View Post
Ok I can read these, does these documents deliver your perspective/answer on my question?
Oh these documents/links give an interesting context to the topic and issue at hand. It's important to read them. It gives an interesting perspective, although doesn't scratch the surface of the matter.
 
Old 11-10-2013, 02:28 AM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,672,622 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by rootzdread View Post
A lot of good info here, what is your heritage/ethnic background ? I am of AfroColombian descent with my heritage stemming from what was colonially known as La Republica De Los Zambos, on the Pacific coast in Southwest Colombia and Northwest Ecuador and some of my family contributed/migrated to the department of Panama (pre-independence Panama)...We can argue "Afrocoloniales" are really just Afrocolombianos, they're just like us from the Pacific coasts and Atlantic coasts of Colombia. Bullerengue and Bunde are Afro genres they sing just like us, Bunde is found on the Pacific coast of Colombia and Bullerengue, on the Atlantic coasts, especially San Basilio de Palenque. Do Afrocolombian descended Panamanians (what Panama today calls Negros Coloniales) identify with us contemporarily? Other Pacific coastal AfroColombians I know have mentioned, they have perceived, attitudes of denial towards their AfroColombian roots and heritage by these Black Panamanians of colonial origin, but they may be individualized experiences. Or maybe it is that those Black people from the department of Panama really never identified with the state of Colombia? Similar to many other Afro people in Colombia today such as Palenqueros, San Andres and Providence Islanders, Chocoanos, and people from other Pacific coastal Afro communities due to the abandonment of the Colombian government in these regions. I am thinking along those lines since you mentioned Colombia did not care at all about the department of Panama, however I would argue that the department of Panama is hard to imagine poorer and more abandoned than the department of Choco and the rest of the Pacific coast because this region is more African and Indigenous than the department of Panama which has had many more mestizos and whites. Historical Panama has been much more like Colombia's atlantic coast demographically due to the large presence of whites and mestizos, than the Pacific coast which is predominantly African and Indigenous.
Thank you.

Thanks for the info and reply. Very cool and interesting what you stated. Cool. I take it that your roots must be from Barbacoas, Nariño etc I suppose as well as Choco and the San Mateo de Esmeraldas area right? Also you wouldn't happen to be that dude that does the videos on YouTube educating people on Afrodiasporic and Indigenous Native American culture and history and issues in Colombia right? "Rootsnlivity/George Echeverry/i Muñoz from Florida, if I'm not mistaken? If so, you're videos on these topics are very informative and interesting.*

In response to your inquiry and comments for starters, what you said is very very controversial lol. That's like essentially saying Panamanians are an extension of Colombians or former Colombians or Colombians detached or separated from other parts of Colombia. Many Panamanians DO NOT identify as former Colombians. I mean, yeah technically Panamanians are former Colombians, and its no different in concept to how if Antioquia or Tolima or Boyaca seperated from Colombia and formed their own seperate independent nations and governments etc. However you'd be asking for a fight if you said that to many or some Panamanians, that they are former Colombians. It would be considered as dreadful or controversial as calling a Dominican, a Haitian. Social interactions and relations between Panameños and Colombianos are complex and about as strained and divided as are Dominican and Haitian relations lol.

It would almost be like saying it can be argued that Afro Ecuadorians or Ecuadorians in general are Afro Colombians or Colombians. They won't identify as such. It's almost like saying Pakistanis and Bangladeshi's or Bengalis are Indians from India. It's very touchy and complex.

Colombia is very complex because it's essentially almost like various different department and regions vastly different as if they were separate nations that just happened to be governed under one body or nation through Santa Fe de Bogota xD.....

As for "Afrocoloniales" being viewed as Afro Colombians or as an extension of Afro Colombians is actually also quite debatable in and of itself. Also not to mention that "Afro colonials" are not culturally homogenous themselves given the different cultures and regions of the Republic of Panama that Afro-Colonials live in. And Panamanians in general have a lot in common culturally and historically with The Pacific Coasts and Atlantic coasts. In fact, colonially, politically, culturally, and jurisdictionally, Panama extended into and included much of what is now the Choco Department and it also extended into and included the Atlantic coast provinces. In fact some parts of the Pacific and Atlantic coasts feel an affinity with or identify as Panamanians or feel more closer to Panamanians than they do with Colombians or other parts of Colombia. Many aspects of folklore were even derived in these regions historically from other parts of in land Panama. In many parts of the pacific of Colombia they "zapateando" and do tamboritos and dances and chants and estrebillos just like how Panamanians do it, and the way they say "ajue and do the ululating shout outs" are identical to Panama. Some close Panamanian friends of mine have said that Panama and the Pacific and Atlantic coasts of Colombia were destined by fate to be one nation due to the commonalities and histories with these regions. Some folkloric songs and chants in Colombia sing about Panama. Some songs and chants in Panama sing of lands in Colombia still to this day etc as well. In fact, cumbia actually even is said to have been first originated in Panama, and lots of theories and evidence, and proof back up that claim too.

It's also important to note that building of the Panama Canal displaced many black and even Native Americans. It especially displaced black communities and settlements descended from emancipated, freed, and former enslaved African peoples that had lived there and throughout the region and area since colonial times. There were also many palenques and cimarron areas that were forcefully taken and destroyed and many were uprooted and had to relocate to other areas in Panama, because of the Panama Canal.

In fact, Panama still has the rights and is very well within it's legal means to reclaim lands and buffer zone borders and regions from Colombia that the USA quietly gave to Colombia. Panama can still rightfully claim it all and all of it if it wants to. Panama can still legally claim parts of Choco department and Atlantic coastal areas like Turbo, but so far it has never reclaimed it. This also explains the connections and affinity that many in these mutually shared and influenced buffer zones and buffer regions share with each other mutually, historically, and culturally.

There are many black communities in Panama that have continuously remained in and lived in Panama since the colonial period and their descendants still live there and throughout all of Panama today. The oldest palenque free black settlement for cimarrones was established in and legally recognized by the Spanish Crown kingdom in 1581/1582 in Pacora, Panama. Pacora, Panama still stands today nearly 4 and a half centuries later.

Yes, bunde and bullerengue are very popular in Panama, especially particularly in Eastern Panama, usually in Chepo and lands going eastward into Chíman and in and throughout all of the Darien Province.

Bunde however in Panama is NOT the same as the one found in Colombia. In fact in many degrees its something different altogether. Even bunde in Colombia differs, as there is bunde tolimense which may be a variant or something different altogether. Bullerengue can differ slightly from those found in Colombia.

In Panama, bunde is different. Bunde has been declared and named as the most authentic Panamanian Christmas and consists of dance, music, songs, and chants in honor of Baby Jesus, and is exclusively known as a tradition auctonous to the town of Garachiné in Darien Province and in surrounding areas there in and out of etc. Bunde is performed during Christmastime in honor of Baby Jesus, represented by a doll *Bunde is a music, dance, and religious festivity celebrated with bunde and loas ornative Christmas songs with lyrics that talk about the arrival of Baby Jesus. It is celebrated from December 6 to January 6. The most important ceremony takes place on December 24 (Christmas Eve). Plenty of food and drinks are served during these celebrations. Though I've always been curious as to how it could be named as the authentic Panamanian Christmas when it's widely and mostly practiced and observed almost exclusively by Garachineños and some darienitas and people that migrated to other parts of Panama from these respective regions. It's similar to how the dreadful U.S. American Christmas cake has become synonymous with U.S. Holiday and Christmas Folklore, and people continue to make it and gift and re gift it, yet many people don't really like it, or don't want to like it no matter how authentically apart of Christmas it's suppose to be lolol.

Hoy inicia el Bunde : Proyecto Folclore

This is a tricky question in regards to Afro-colonials and Afrodescended Panamanians yhat have known Afro-Colombian ancestry or ancestors. Many families were split up when France and the USA illegally and wrongfully created Panama as a nation for profit and abuse. When these two powers arbitrated the buffer zones and lands of Panama, many peoples migrated to Panama or split up or migrated to elsewhere.

Colombians have always been and so far still are the largest immigrant group to and in the Republic of Panama. There are Colombians of all races in Panama. There are a lot of white Colombians that come to Panama who heavily associate with and relate to and due business, trading, and socializing with the historic colonial descended white "rabiblancos" elites in Panama. In fact many wealthy or well to do Colombians even intermarry with the elite rabiblancos families and peoples in Panama.

Other Colombians are in Panama as prostitutes, and drug smuggling, or even in slavery or sex trafficking.

Other Colombians are illegal and legal or in transit or simply poor Colombian refugees migrating to Panama for safety and fleeing from all of the turmoil and war and violence and FARC, and some are fleeing due to being displaced or fear from others threatening to rape, harm, sodomize or kill them. Colombians in many aspects face a lot of xenophobia and many are stereotyped as being criminals and many have a mutual love hate relationship with Panamanians and vice versa. Its kind of like the complex relationship between Haitians and Dominicans.

Colombian immigrants, especially the poor ones do jobs that many Panamanian citizens don't want to do.

As for Afrodescended Colombians in Panama, it gets tricky because there are plenty of Afro-colonials that have absolutely no ancestral ties or connections to Colombia, as in all of their direct and indirect lineages and ancestry can be traced back to and goes back to the very first Africans that were brought to and settled in lands now known as Panama as early as the very first decade of the 1500s. There has always been migrations back and forth between the buffer zones of what is now Panama and Colombia. It also depends on how many generations removed that that person is from Colombia how they may identify themselves. There was a controversial political activist who had her Panamanian-ness questioned, due to claims that she was an illegal Colombian immigrant, and it was later found out that she had obtained fake documents or was lying and she had been born in Colombia but always claimed and repped Darien Panama as her homeland and place of birth which she had lived in since early infancy. From what I read in a very in-depth and informative paper and documents and exclusive interviews on Darien Province on Native American groups and Afrodescendants in Darien, it mentioned how some Darienitas (black people and Afrodescendientes in Darien) do in fact feel and identify as very Panamanian, but that many do know that their roots are from Colombia or are Colombian *and that they aren't the same as those blacks in Panama that are rooted from or have roots from the West Indies, and that they are Hispanics, and relate with Spanish speaking Panamanians, and other colonial blacks, as well as Colombians.

However the Spanish speaking colonial blacks in Colon Province that also may call themselves Congos, are not exactly culturally the same as the colonial blacks living in the more Pacific parts of Panama. The Archipielago of the Pearl Islands has a unique Afro-Hispanic culture in Panama.

In Cocle Province there are areas that have Afrodescendientes, and their cultural practices and traditions are unique and different as well.

In the interior central provinces in places like the Azuero Peninsula (Los Santos and Herrera and parts of pacific Veraguas) there are areas there where one can find Afrodescendientes and their culture is different as well, same with certain areas in Chiriqui and Veraguas.

It's kind of reminiscent of how the blacks of Esmeraldas and Pacific/western Ecuador have more unique distinct culture as well as Pacific Colombian/Afro Colombian cultural tendencies, while the blacks of the more interior and inland in the Valle De Chota/Chota-Mira River Valley have a different and unique distinct culture different from those from Esmeraldas.

You said this, can you elaborate more on this and what you mean?:

"Other Pacific coastal AfroColombians I know have mentioned, they have perceived, attitudes of denial towards their AfroColombian roots and heritage by these Black Panamanians of colonial origin, but they may be individualized experiences."

I don't think black and Afrodescended peoples in the department of Panama had anything against the state or nation of Colombia. There were many blacks that were politically active citizens concerned with socio economic issues of the day and class. Class has always been a big issue among many colonial blacks during the Colombian period and even after, others were simply rural blacks and just concerned with getting by day to day and sustaining just their simple basic needs. As for identifying with Colombia or not that was left into the hands of the political and social elite and the wealthy. The Colombian Liberal and Conservative Parties were really two sides of the same coin and deeply tied to each other behind the scenes. It's all a bunch of clap trap semantics. It's poLIEtics. Many had no desires for independence from Colombia, and if anything at least possible autonomy as only a few Colombian Liberals pushed or vied and vowed for in Panama department and other departments. Many provinces and states pushed for autonomy. There was planned attempts and rebellions in the Pacific and Atlantic provinces even especially after the aftermath of the USA stealing Panama. Many blacks in Panama (at least stereotypically) were associated with and allied with the Colombian Liberal Party.

And I never said that Colombia didn't care about the isthmus department or department of Panama. Colombia did care about it and all of its other provinces but, lots of issues had to do with politics and political representation. The politics were and still are greatly divided between the Colombian Liberals and Colombian Conservatives (almost akin to how the USA is greatly politically divided between Democrats and Republicans historically) Most or rather many states in Colombia (including Panama) had asked for autonomy or more attention and funds and money and with some not being happy with the centralized government back at Santa Fe de Bogota. Many people in all states felt Colombia and knew that they were Colombian. Remember that it was the France and the USA and Colombian Conservatives and elites and money hungry Colombians that went along with the USA back Wall Street plan to illegally create Panama. Also no Panamanian or Colombian even signed the Panama Canal and canal zone treaty in post Nov 3, 1903. Also the Thousand Days War end and treaties and behind the scenes was orchestrated by the USA. The Thousand Days War did a lot of fighting and damage in Panama sadly. I doubt Panama would have ever been or remained independent if the France, and the USA hadn't been involved in creating Panama as a nation. It was falsely created for profit. Panamanians were proud Colombians and had no desire for independence. Also if USA did care about the interests of the Panamanians or Department of Panama, why would they set up Panama as a nation and have it headed and ran by Colombian conservatives, who go against many of Panama's interests. The whole Panama being a nation is a Wall Street backed scam. Colombia fought so hard to make a case against the USA and get their land of Panama back, even declaring Panama City, as the capital of Colombia. An indemnity (and apology if I'm not mistaken and mutual pardon) was paid to Colombia in 1921 to 1922. It's interesting though that in the Colombian coat of arms (escudos), Panama is still included. Some documents in constitution and government of Colombia still include Panama xD.

Panama is very similar to Atlantic Colombia and Pacific Colombia and Ecuador. In fact they share some historic cultures, traditions, and folklore.

Genetically, on average Panamanians tend to be largely tri racial, having white, black, and Native American ancestors, in virtually almost equal proportions of each.

East of the Panama Canal area, it tends to get more blacker and more African as well as more Native American/indigenous, while west of the Panama Canal, it tends to get more mixed white/Native, and overwhelmingly much more whiter and more European. Azuero Peninsula is often considered to be an area that is very white or where the oldest Hispanic families in Panama live, west of the Panama Canal. It's not necessarily as black, west of the Panama Canal but there are blacks that exist and are scattered out in West Panama and further west.

Most of Panama's population lives in the transit zone, pretty much the areas in between Colon City and Panama City and the surrounding areas in and around the Panama Canal and former Panama Canal Zone and in Panama province.

Dynamics may be slightly changing since a new 10th province was just created and promulgated into the Republic of Panama with the lands that was considered as West(ern) Panama (which is where Mariano Rivera and his wife grew up and are from). Mariano Rivera is of mixed ancestry by the way.

As for Colombia there are lots of unique different ethnic groups and Afro Colombian ethnic groups.*

Panama attracted lots of migrants from other parts of Colombia as well as immigrants over the years and largely due it's ties to both the Pacific and Atlantic worlds it made an easy crossroads for trade and business especially as a narrow isthmus/isthmian land. This was a benefit and asset to Colombia, with Panama being an integral part of Colombia.

And hmm, Colombia didn't allocate or create the existence of the Department of Choco until 1947. Colombia unfortunately still exploits the pacific region and has not held up to it's promise in full of respecting and protecting the land rights of the peoples that the locals are legally allocated and entitled to by constitution and promulgated law. Something like that is going on in the Pearl Islands of Panama in regards to land rights and land claims and displacement.

It all goes back to poLIEtics, control, and class, money, resources, education, and opportunity.

Last edited by MelismaticEchoes; 11-10-2013 at 03:24 AM..
 
Old 11-10-2013, 03:18 AM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,672,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rootzdread View Post
A lot of good info here, what is your heritage/ethnic background ? I am of AfroColombian descent with my heritage stemming from what was colonially known as La Republica De Los Zambos, on the Pacific coast in Southwest Colombia and Northwest Ecuador and some of my family contributed/migrated to the department of Panama (pre-independence Panama)...We can argue "Afrocoloniales" are really just Afrocolombianos, they're just like us from the Pacific coasts and Atlantic coasts of Colombia. Bullerengue and Bunde are Afro genres they sing just like us, Bunde is found on the Pacific coast of Colombia and Bullerengue, on the Atlantic coasts, especially San Basilio de Palenque. Do Afrocolombian descended Panamanians (what Panama today calls Negros Coloniales) identify with us contemporarily? Other Pacific coastal AfroColombians I know have mentioned, they have perceived, attitudes of denial towards their AfroColombian roots and heritage by these Black Panamanians of colonial origin, but they may be individualized experiences. Or maybe it is that those Black people from the department of Panama really never identified with the state of Colombia? Similar to many other Afro people in Colombia today such as Palenqueros, San Andres and Providence Islanders, Chocoanos, and people from other Pacific coastal Afro communities due to the abandonment of the Colombian government in these regions. I am thinking along those lines since you mentioned Colombia did not care at all about the department of Panama, however I would argue that the department of Panama is hard to imagine poorer and more abandoned than the department of Choco and the rest of the Pacific coast because this region is more African and Indigenous than the department of Panama which has had many more mestizos and whites. Historical Panama has been much more like Colombia's atlantic coast demographically due to the large presence of whites and mestizos, than the Pacific coast which is predominantly African and Indigenous.
This is a good book/source link:

Without Hatreds Or Fears: Jorge Artel and the Struggle for Black Literary ... - Laurence Emmanuel Prescott - Google Books
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