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Old 11-10-2013, 03:54 AM
 
Location: Buenos Aires
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Argentina not welcoming blacks at this time. Maybe next year.

 
Old 11-10-2013, 07:03 AM
 
367 posts, read 760,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
Thank you.

Thanks for the info and reply. Very cool and interesting what you stated. Cool. I take it that your roots must be from Barbacoas, Nariño etc I suppose as well as Choco and the San Mateo de Esmeraldas area right? Also you wouldn't happen to be that dude that does the videos on YouTube educating people on Afrodiasporic and Indigenous Native American culture and history and issues in Colombia right? "Rootsnlivity/George Echeverry/i Muñoz from Florida, if I'm not mistaken? If so, you're videos on these topics are very informative and interesting.*

In response to your inquiry and comments for starters, what you said is very very controversial lol. That's like essentially saying Panamanians are an extension of Colombians or former Colombians or Colombians detached or separated from other parts of Colombia. Many Panamanians DO NOT identify as former Colombians. I mean, yeah technically Panamanians are former Colombians, and its no different in concept to how if Antioquia or Tolima or Boyaca seperated from Colombia and formed their own seperate independent nations and governments etc. However you'd be asking for a fight if you said that to many or some Panamanians, that they are former Colombians. It would be considered as dreadful or controversial as calling a Dominican, a Haitian. Social interactions and relations between Panameños and Colombianos are complex and about as strained and divided as are Dominican and Haitian relations lol.

It would almost be like saying it can be argued that Afro Ecuadorians or Ecuadorians in general are Afro Colombians or Colombians. They won't identify as such. It's almost like saying Pakistanis and Bangladeshi's or Bengalis are Indians from India. It's very touchy and complex.

Colombia is very complex because it's essentially almost like various different department and regions vastly different as if they were separate nations that just happened to be governed under one body or nation through Santa Fe de Bogota xD.....

As for "Afrocoloniales" being viewed as Afro Colombians or as an extension of Afro Colombians is actually also quite debatable in and of itself. Also not to mention that "Afro colonials" are not culturally homogenous themselves given the different cultures and regions of the Republic of Panama that Afro-Colonials live in. And Panamanians in general have a lot in common culturally and historically with The Pacific Coasts and Atlantic coasts. In fact, colonially, politically, culturally, and jurisdictionally, Panama extended into and included much of what is now the Choco Department and it also extended into and included the Atlantic coast provinces. In fact some parts of the Pacific and Atlantic coasts feel an affinity with or identify as Panamanians or feel more closer to Panamanians than they do with Colombians or other parts of Colombia. Many aspects of folklore were even derived in these regions historically from other parts of in land Panama. In many parts of the pacific of Colombia they "zapateando" and do tamboritos and dances and chants and estrebillos just like how Panamanians do it, and the way they say "ajue and do the ululating shout outs" are identical to Panama. Some close Panamanian friends of mine have said that Panama and the Pacific and Atlantic coasts of Colombia were destined by fate to be one nation due to the commonalities and histories with these regions. Some folkloric songs and chants in Colombia sing about Panama. Some songs and chants in Panama sing of lands in Colombia still to this day etc as well. In fact, cumbia actually even is said to have been first originated in Panama, and lots of theories and evidence, and proof back up that claim too.

It's also important to note that building of the Panama Canal displaced many black and even Native Americans. It especially displaced black communities and settlements descended from emancipated, freed, and former enslaved African peoples that had lived there and throughout the region and area since colonial times. There were also many palenques and cimarron areas that were forcefully taken and destroyed and many were uprooted and had to relocate to other areas in Panama, because of the Panama Canal.

In fact, Panama still has the rights and is very well within it's legal means to reclaim lands and buffer zone borders and regions from Colombia that the USA quietly gave to Colombia. Panama can still rightfully claim it all and all of it if it wants to. Panama can still legally claim parts of Choco department and Atlantic coastal areas like Turbo, but so far it has never reclaimed it. This also explains the connections and affinity that many in these mutually shared and influenced buffer zones and buffer regions share with each other mutually, historically, and culturally.

There are many black communities in Panama that have continuously remained in and lived in Panama since the colonial period and their descendants still live there and throughout all of Panama today. The oldest palenque free black settlement for cimarrones was established in and legally recognized by the Spanish Crown kingdom in 1581/1582 in Pacora, Panama. Pacora, Panama still stands today nearly 4 and a half centuries later.

Yes, bunde and bullerengue are very popular in Panama, especially particularly in Eastern Panama, usually in Chepo and lands going eastward into Chíman and in and throughout all of the Darien Province.

Bunde however in Panama is NOT the same as the one found in Colombia. In fact in many degrees its something different altogether. Even bunde in Colombia differs, as there is bunde tolimense which may be a variant or something different altogether. Bullerengue can differ slightly from those found in Colombia.

In Panama, bunde is different. Bunde has been declared and named as the most authentic Panamanian Christmas and consists of dance, music, songs, and chants in honor of Baby Jesus, and is exclusively known as a tradition auctonous to the town of Garachiné in Darien Province and in surrounding areas there in and out of etc. Bunde is performed during Christmastime in honor of Baby Jesus, represented by a doll *Bunde is a music, dance, and religious festivity celebrated with bunde and loas ornative Christmas songs with lyrics that talk about the arrival of Baby Jesus. It is celebrated from December 6 to January 6. The most important ceremony takes place on December 24 (Christmas Eve). Plenty of food and drinks are served during these celebrations. Though I've always been curious as to how it could be named as the authentic Panamanian Christmas when it's widely and mostly practiced and observed almost exclusively by Garachineños and some darienitas and people that migrated to other parts of Panama from these respective regions. It's similar to how the dreadful U.S. American Christmas cake has become synonymous with U.S. Holiday and Christmas Folklore, and people continue to make it and gift and re gift it, yet many people don't really like it, or don't want to like it no matter how authentically apart of Christmas it's suppose to be lolol.

Hoy inicia el Bunde : Proyecto Folclore

This is a tricky question in regards to Afro-colonials and Afrodescended Panamanians yhat have known Afro-Colombian ancestry or ancestors. Many families were split up when France and the USA illegally and wrongfully created Panama as a nation for profit and abuse. When these two powers arbitrated the buffer zones and lands of Panama, many peoples migrated to Panama or split up or migrated to elsewhere.

Colombians have always been and so far still are the largest immigrant group to and in the Republic of Panama. There are Colombians of all races in Panama. There are a lot of white Colombians that come to Panama who heavily associate with and relate to and due business, trading, and socializing with the historic colonial descended white "rabiblancos" elites in Panama. In fact many wealthy or well to do Colombians even intermarry with the elite rabiblancos families and peoples in Panama.

Other Colombians are in Panama as prostitutes, and drug smuggling, or even in slavery or sex trafficking.

Other Colombians are illegal and legal or in transit or simply poor Colombian refugees migrating to Panama for safety and fleeing from all of the turmoil and war and violence and FARC, and some are fleeing due to being displaced or fear from others threatening to rape, harm, sodomize or kill them. Colombians in many aspects face a lot of xenophobia and many are stereotyped as being criminals and many have a mutual love hate relationship with Panamanians and vice versa. Its kind of like the complex relationship between Haitians and Dominicans.

Colombian immigrants, especially the poor ones do jobs that many Panamanian citizens don't want to do.

As for Afrodescended Colombians in Panama, it gets tricky because there are plenty of Afro-colonials that have absolutely no ancestral ties or connections to Colombia, as in all of their direct and indirect lineages and ancestry can be traced back to and goes back to the very first Africans that were brought to and settled in lands now known as Panama as early as the very first decade of the 1500s. There has always been migrations back and forth between the buffer zones of what is now Panama and Colombia. It also depends on how many generations removed that that person is from Colombia how they may identify themselves. There was a controversial political activist who had her Panamanian-ness questioned, due to claims that she was an illegal Colombian immigrant, and it was later found out that she had obtained fake documents or was lying and she had been born in Colombia but always claimed and repped Darien Panama as her homeland and place of birth which she had lived in since early infancy. From what I read in a very in-depth and informative paper and documents and exclusive interviews on Darien Province on Native American groups and Afrodescendants in Darien, it mentioned how some Darienitas (black people and Afrodescendientes in Darien) do in fact feel and identify as very Panamanian, but that many do know that their roots are from Colombia or are Colombian *and that they aren't the same as those blacks in Panama that are rooted from or have roots from the West Indies, and that they are Hispanics, and relate with Spanish speaking Panamanians, and other colonial blacks, as well as Colombians.

However the Spanish speaking colonial blacks in Colon Province that also may call themselves Congos, are not exactly culturally the same as the colonial blacks living in the more Pacific parts of Panama. The Archipielago of the Pearl Islands has a unique Afro-Hispanic culture in Panama.

In Cocle Province there are areas that have Afrodescendientes, and their cultural practices and traditions are unique and different as well.

In the interior central provinces in places like the Azuero Peninsula (Los Santos and Herrera and parts of pacific Veraguas) there are areas there where one can find Afrodescendientes and their culture is different as well, same with certain areas in Chiriqui and Veraguas.

It's kind of reminiscent of how the blacks of Esmeraldas and Pacific/western Ecuador have more unique distinct culture as well as Pacific Colombian/Afro Colombian cultural tendencies, while the blacks of the more interior and inland in the Valle De Chota/Chota-Mira River Valley have a different and unique distinct culture different from those from Esmeraldas.

You said this, can you elaborate more on this and what you mean?:

"Other Pacific coastal AfroColombians I know have mentioned, they have perceived, attitudes of denial towards their AfroColombian roots and heritage by these Black Panamanians of colonial origin, but they may be individualized experiences."

I don't think black and Afrodescended peoples in the department of Panama had anything against the state or nation of Colombia. There were many blacks that were politically active citizens concerned with socio economic issues of the day and class. Class has always been a big issue among many colonial blacks during the Colombian period and even after, others were simply rural blacks and just concerned with getting by day to day and sustaining just their simple basic needs. As for identifying with Colombia or not that was left into the hands of the political and social elite and the wealthy. The Colombian Liberal and Conservative Parties were really two sides of the same coin and deeply tied to each other behind the scenes. It's all a bunch of clap trap semantics. It's poLIEtics. Many had no desires for independence from Colombia, and if anything at least possible autonomy as only a few Colombian Liberals pushed or vied and vowed for in Panama department and other departments. Many provinces and states pushed for autonomy. There was planned attempts and rebellions in the Pacific and Atlantic provinces even especially after the aftermath of the USA stealing Panama. Many blacks in Panama (at least stereotypically) were associated with and allied with the Colombian Liberal Party.

And I never said that Colombia didn't care about the isthmus department or department of Panama. Colombia did care about it and all of its other provinces but, lots of issues had to do with politics and political representation. The politics were and still are greatly divided between the Colombian Liberals and Colombian Conservatives (almost akin to how the USA is greatly politically divided between Democrats and Republicans historically) Most or rather many states in Colombia (including Panama) had asked for autonomy or more attention and funds and money and with some not being happy with the centralized government back at Santa Fe de Bogota. Many people in all states felt Colombia and knew that they were Colombian. Remember that it was the France and the USA and Colombian Conservatives and elites and money hungry Colombians that went along with the USA back Wall Street plan to illegally create Panama. Also no Panamanian or Colombian even signed the Panama Canal and canal zone treaty in post Nov 3, 1903. Also the Thousand Days War end and treaties and behind the scenes was orchestrated by the USA. The Thousand Days War did a lot of fighting and damage in Panama sadly. I doubt Panama would have ever been or remained independent if the France, and the USA hadn't been involved in creating Panama as a nation. It was falsely created for profit. Panamanians were proud Colombians and had no desire for independence. Also if USA did care about the interests of the Panamanians or Department of Panama, why would they set up Panama as a nation and have it headed and ran by Colombian conservatives, who go against many of Panama's interests. The whole Panama being a nation is a Wall Street backed scam. Colombia fought so hard to make a case against the USA and get their land of Panama back, even declaring Panama City, as the capital of Colombia. An indemnity (and apology if I'm not mistaken and mutual pardon) was paid to Colombia in 1921 to 1922. It's interesting though that in the Colombian coat of arms (escudos), Panama is still included. Some documents in constitution and government of Colombia still include Panama xD.

Panama is very similar to Atlantic Colombia and Pacific Colombia and Ecuador. In fact they share some historic cultures, traditions, and folklore.

Genetically, on average Panamanians tend to be largely tri racial, having white, black, and Native American ancestors, in virtually almost equal proportions of each.

East of the Panama Canal area, it tends to get more blacker and more African as well as more Native American/indigenous, while west of the Panama Canal, it tends to get more mixed white/Native, and overwhelmingly much more whiter and more European. Azuero Peninsula is often considered to be an area that is very white or where the oldest Hispanic families in Panama live, west of the Panama Canal. It's not necessarily as black, west of the Panama Canal but there are blacks that exist and are scattered out in West Panama and further west.

Most of Panama's population lives in the transit zone, pretty much the areas in between Colon City and Panama City and the surrounding areas in and around the Panama Canal and former Panama Canal Zone and in Panama province.

Dynamics may be slightly changing since a new 10th province was just created and promulgated into the Republic of Panama with the lands that was considered as West(ern) Panama (which is where Mariano Rivera and his wife grew up and are from). Mariano Rivera is of mixed ancestry by the way.

As for Colombia there are lots of unique different ethnic groups and Afro Colombian ethnic groups.*

Panama attracted lots of migrants from other parts of Colombia as well as immigrants over the years and largely due it's ties to both the Pacific and Atlantic worlds it made an easy crossroads for trade and business especially as a narrow isthmus/isthmian land. This was a benefit and asset to Colombia, with Panama being an integral part of Colombia.

And hmm, Colombia didn't allocate or create the existence of the Department of Choco until 1947. Colombia unfortunately still exploits the pacific region and has not held up to it's promise in full of respecting and protecting the land rights of the peoples that the locals are legally allocated and entitled to by constitution and promulgated law. Something like that is going on in the Pearl Islands of Panama in regards to land rights and land claims and displacement.

It all goes back to poLIEtics, control, and class, money, resources, education, and opportunity.
This is good information. It is difficult to find someone who knows so much information about the other side of our heritage, Panama. Many of us Afro-Pacific people's African ancestors first arrived to Panama. I admit when I was thinking of the Afro-Spanish Speaking Panamanians being like us Pacific coastal and Atlantic coastal Afro-Colombians, I was thinking primarily of the Darienitas. I saw a documentary on the Darienitas and it looked like an extension of Choco. It is the same Bullerengue as the Palenquero Bullerengue as I have CDs from both the Panamanian and Colombian side. Even on wikipedia someone noticed the same origin, "El bullerengue o bullarengue es un género musical y de danza de la Costa Caribe de Colombia 1 y de la provincia de Darién, Panamá.2
Es ejecutada principalmente por los actuales descendientes de los cimarrones que habitaron el Palenque de San Basilio (Colombia),3 el Palenque del Mamoní o Santiago del Príncipe y la tribu de los mandinga de Kuna Yala (Panamá), que se extendieron hasta el Darién histórico.4" Bullerengue - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

When I was referring to Bunde, I was speaking of this Bunde from the Pacific coast, this is a very popular song: bunde del pacifico - YouTube

In reference to migrants to Panama, yes I know some Chocoano/as currently living there. Many people from the Northern Pacific coast (Choco) migrate there. However us from the Southern Pacific (especially Nariño) usually migrate to Ecuador. There are Bonaverenses, Tumaqueños and Barbacoanos in Esmeraldas and Guayaquil. Actually in contemporary Ecuador, Black people are often perceived as Colombian migrants. There are probably opinions that all Colombians are Black or a majority of them in the countries south of us.

Do you have any documentaries or books on the Pearl Islands' Afro community you mentioned? I have never heard of them. This is reminding me of something like Juanchaco and Ladrilleros, Afro populated islands off the coast of Buenaventura, which is the largest city on the Pacific coast with a population of 500,000+.

I have also read about Chiriqui being the white epicenter of Panama. It is basically the Paisa region of Panama in my opinion. And just like the Paisa region of Colombia, Chiriqui had also tried to become an independent country.

As far as Panama being one country with the Atlantic coast and Pacific coast of Colombia that is difficult because, the Pacific coastal AfroColombians do not identify with Atlantic coastal AfroColombians nor really have any communication with each other. The cultures and dialects are different and they don't really identify with each other. The Pacific Coast is like Haiti and Jamaica while the Atlantic coast is a more mixed cousin like the Dominican Republic or Puerto Rico. Pacific Coastal AfroColombians always criticize AfroAtlantic and/or mixed people from that region for denying their Blackness and African heritage. The Pacific coastal AfroColombians, we're a self-identified Black people. The Pacific coastal AfroColombians have just recently been interacting with Palenqueros from Bolivar on the Atlantic coast due to this shared self-identified Blackness and embracement of African ancestry. If there were to be an independent country it would just be Choco, as some have proposed it, and possibly the rest of the Pacific coastal lowlands in Valle, Cauca and Nariño if their mestizo dominated highlands permitted it. You see Choco is the only department with a Black government and capital, while the Black Pacific coastal communities of Valle Del Cauca, Cauca and Nariño have to deal with the mestizo dominated capitals of Cali, Popayan and Pasto. Valle del Cauca and Cauca also have Black Andean communities though, and they are pockets of Africanity near these capitals. For example, south of Cali, you have communities like Robles, Villapaz, Villarica, etc. There are many predominantly Black communities in that South Valle/North Cauca region near Cali. However, even Pacific coastal AfroColombians and these Andean AfroColombians see each other differently because their culture and heritage developed differently. They speak different and have different music but, they all meet in Cali. The Andean AfroColombians would be perceived as being more stereotypically Colombian, perhaps because they're near the large city of Cali. Pacific coastal AfroColombians have had more of an isolated heritage, making it more autonomous. These two groups are both Western Afro-Colombians from Valle, Cauca, and Nariño and yet there is no really unified identification there. Pacific coastal people perceive them as being much more Indigenized culturally, musically, dialectically as they have lived near Andean Natives for centuries. While on the Pacific coast, you will even see Africanized Native peoples playing African instruments like Marimbas. I leave you an example here with these two videos, from the same department, CAUCA.

First one is Caucano Afro-Andeans:
Violines del Cauca - YouTube


2nd one is Caucano Afro-Costeños (Timbiquireños):

Grupo Socavon - Comadre Mayeya - YouTube
BTW this is Currulao, unique to our Southern Pacific coast of Colombia and Northern Pacific coast of Ecuador

Last edited by rootzdread; 11-10-2013 at 07:13 AM..
 
Old 11-11-2013, 03:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rootzdread View Post
, . The Pacific Coast is like Haiti and Jamaica while the Atlantic coast is a more mixed cousin like the Dominican Republic or Puerto Rico. Pacific Coastal AfroColombians always criticize AfroAtlantic and/or mixed people from that region for denying their Blackness and African heritage. The Pacific coastal AfroColombians, we're a self-identified Black people. The Pacific coastal AfroColombians have just recently been interacting with Palenqueros from Bolivar on the Atlantic coast due to this shared self-identified Blackness and embracement of African ancestry.,
First one is Caucano Afro-Andeans:
Violines del Cauca - YouTube


2nd one is Caucano Afro-Costeños (Timbiquireños):

Grupo Socavon - Comadre Mayeya - YouTube
BTW this is Currulao, unique to our Southern Pacific coast of Colombia and Northern Pacific coast of Ecuador

Indeed when ever one talks about Afrodescendants in Colombia. Two issues stand out. The relatively large % of Colombians who fall into this group..numbers vary). And the fact that the discussion quickly turns to the Choco and their communities of migrants in cities like Cali. Apparently its Choco which leads discussions of AfroColombian rights, even though most might be part of other communities.
 
Old 11-11-2013, 04:04 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,928,652 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
Also be careful which Panamanians you speak to, especially Panamanians and people that claim Panamanian descent in the USA.
.*

The Panamanians who I know would be second generation Panama West Indians. People who migrated to the USA , but who make frequent trips to Panama, own property there and plan to retire back there.

Indeed one of them told me about distinct groups of Panamanian blacks. He separated the Bocas blacks (who arrived to work on banana plantations) from the Canal blacks. Those with Francophone origins were also separated out, but are supposedly no longer of numeric significance. So even amoing the immigrant origin blacks there are distinctions. He also separated the blacks from Colon and other regions who were more "Hispanic", from those of the Darien, who are more isolated, so most "African" in scope (his opinion). Indeed his condescending attitudes was not directed to those from the Darien.


They were quite familiar with what their parents the "Digger" generation went through. Raised by english speaking parents, but socialized into spanish speaking Panama, these are bi-lingual/bicultural. They travel back to Panama often ,and have a net work of relatives back there. So I do not know that the Panamanian West Indian population is as small as you suggest. Maybe those who remain culturally West Indian might be, but considering that most of these are the great grand kids of the diggers, and they have had almost no contact with their ancestral lands one would expect them to be fully assimilated into Panama by now, much as those descended from that 1920s migration to Harlem are.

They speak of the Congos, teach their kids, Congo dances, so are quite aware of Congo, which they described as Panamanian, and use this to differentiate themselves from Anglophone Caribbean people. No attempt is made to suggest that this dance is West Indian. This is an attempt to ensure that their kids retain a connection to Panama, living a sthey do mainly around second generation Anglophone West Indian/Haitians.

Their attitude towards colonial blacks was based on the fcat that West Indians were more militantly "black" than the colonials were, and more confrontational...having to face down both the US Canal administrators and the "rabiblanco" Panamian elites.

What is apparent is that colonial blacks were used against West Indian blacks, maybe as Dominican elites use darker Dominicans against Haitians. In other words liking neither but expressing a preference for the group of "blacks" who they saw as less of a threat. This is not to suggest that Colonial blacks deliberately set out to be used, but in their powerlessness they were used as evidence that the bias against West Indians was not racist, but was culturally based. Clearly anti West Indian bias was based on a notion that they were from an "inferior race".

For all the supposed animosity against white Americans I am sure that they are put on a pedestal in day to day dealings in Panama. Especially now that the Canal is no longer an issue. Your articles that you referenced did suggest that animosity against West Indian blacks isnt entirely dead, even though most of those remaining are either bi lingual or Spanish monolingual.
 
Old 11-11-2013, 04:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Indeed when ever one talks about Afrodescendants in Colombia. Two issues stand out. The relatively large % of Colombians who fall into this group..numbers vary). And the fact that the discussion quickly turns to the Choco and their communities of migrants in cities like Cali. Apparently its Choco which leads discussions of AfroColombian rights, even though most might be part of other communities.
Because Choco is really the only predominantly Afro and Afro dominated state that has been part of the region since colonial days. San Andres and Providence were historically a British colony so not counted much.
 
Old 10-18-2014, 02:59 PM
 
1,554 posts, read 1,471,707 times
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We should look at things from class lines in analysis of this topic. Race and class often intersect!
 
Old 10-18-2014, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Brazil
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i have been lurking on this site so this will be my first post. I'm African American and I live in Salvador,Brazil. I teach English at a good school but before that I had an interview for an office job and there wasn't one Black employee there. I didn't get the job despite being qualified for it. This is in the blackest city in Brazil yet the White elite run everything.
 
Old 10-18-2014, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Brazil
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A
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocoricoco View Post
Davy

You were right.
Haiti is not a Latin American country, notwithstanding the fact that it was once a French colony and the richest land on the world. They should coin another classification, "Afroamerica?"

Jamaica not Latin America either.
You're wrong. Haiti is apart of Latin America,look at a map of Latin America. Jamaica was originally colonized by the Spanish before they lost it to the British so Jamaica easily could have been a Spanish speaking island making them apart of Latin America even some of their towns have Spanish names.
 
Old 10-18-2014, 04:48 PM
 
1,554 posts, read 1,471,707 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skateboardstephen View Post
A
You're wrong. Haiti is apart of Latin America,look at a map of Latin America. Jamaica was originally colonized by the Spanish before they lost it to the British so Jamaica easily could have been a Spanish speaking island making them apart of Latin America even some of their towns have Spanish names.
Yep, and some parts of Jamaica still have strong Latin influences!
 
Old 10-18-2014, 04:49 PM
 
Location: London, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
Yep, and some parts of Jamaica still have strong Latin influences!
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