U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Americas
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 06-12-2014, 06:55 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,952,446 times
Reputation: 3799

Advertisements

[quote=nycjowww;35201220][quote=caribny;35027658]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891 View Post
Although Haitians (as a group) are genetically mostly African; you’ll hear many families citing ancestry from S.D., Jamaica, France, Cuba, and Martinique (examples). .

How many non elite families have these ancestries? Yes I am aware that many elites trace their ancestries from other parts of the Caribbean. But is this true of the bulk of Haitians whose ancestry was derived from rural peasants, and those people derived mainly from people who were BORN in Africa, when they were freed in 1802? This population remaining fairly isolated until the 60s when PAP began to experience phenomenal growth.


Face it Haiti has a unique history. Its period of slavery was shorter. Indeed 90% of the slaves brought to Haiti arrived between the 1730s and the 1750s. That is why the VAST MAJORITY were African born when the Revolution began. Most of these people became rural subsistence peasants, until the last generation or two, and so were isolated from the more mixed urban populations.

This is unlike Jamaica where slavery continued for an additional almost 50 years. And when slavery ended the majority of the slaves on the island were either born there, or if African born were aged. This alone would have meant more diverse ancestries as sizeable numbers would have been the offspring of some white overseer, who didn't or couldn't free them. And then the plantation system continued well into the 20th century with additional contacts between the wealthy white/mulatto landowners and the black female workers.

So even though Jamaica is an African island (0ver 90% self identifying as black), with sizeable numbers being virtually pure African, there would have been more dissemination of non African ancestry throughout the population. Indeed the vast majority of Jamaicans with some Chinese and Indian ancestry are by now mixed, with many of these now self identifying as "black", so included in that 90%.

 
Old 06-12-2014, 10:56 PM
 
3,308 posts, read 2,775,431 times
Reputation: 2888
Quote:
Originally Posted by NooYowkur81 View Post
This sub-forum could be so much better, i'm yawning at this point as well. Every discussion seems to come to this...
I know, it also becomes a platform for inflamed egos who know more than everyone else.
 
Old 06-13-2014, 10:39 AM
 
1,250 posts, read 1,157,557 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay_jay26 View Post
I'll answer this with a few questions:

-When will people stop asking me "but you look white"?
-When will nobody doubt my "Puerto Rican-ness"?
-When will people stop saying "you sound more like Red and not like Daya, from 'Orange Is the New Black'"?
-When will people stop saying "you must be Croatian/Romanian/Hungarian/Bulgarian/Russian"?

I'd like to know, because then I'll stop "being white" and will get a very deep tan, collagen injections, fillers to no longer have defined bone-cheeks, eye surgery to make my eyes slanted, I'll start talking like Cheech Marin, and have all sorts of surgeries to have an "apple shaped" body.


I'm white AND Puerto Rican...deal with it!!!!
I don't understand. You want to become white because people confuse you for white?
 
Old 06-13-2014, 05:04 PM
Status: "Thinking of the future..." (set 8 days ago)
 
5,286 posts, read 8,065,714 times
Reputation: 4290
Supposedly some 25,000 Haitians live in Guadeloupe and 9,000 Dominicans (from Dominica) live there too. (http://www4.uwm.edu/clacs/resources/.../brodwin91.pdf , http://dominicanewsonline.com/news/h...in-guadeloupe/)

The estimates for Haitians is probably higher because I'm citing a paper from 2001. The estimate for Dominicans (from Dominica, an English-speaking island very near Guadeloupe) is only of legal immigrants, so in reality its probably higher too. This estimate, though, is of 2012.

I haven't found an estimate on the number of Dominicans (from Dominican Republic) that live there.
 
Old 06-13-2014, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Randolph, MA
508 posts, read 644,398 times
Reputation: 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post


How many non elite families have these ancestries? Yes I am aware that many elites trace their ancestries from other parts of the Caribbean.
Most of the people who have ancestry from within the Caribbean are not related to the 'Elite' families, especially those who have Afro-Cuban, Dominican, or Jamaican ancestry. They don't typically like anything that is not Francophone. Upper Class Haitians have always associated with France, Martinique, Quebec, and even Cote D'Ivoire. They're only a few dozen of those families anyway (loads of loosely related clans though). I've seen you post so I'm sure you know that Cuba and the other aforementioned places have African descended populations. Haiti received a lot of Black immigration from Independence to just about before Duvalier (and that's just an estimate).

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
But is this true of the bulk of Haitians whose ancestry was derived from rural peasants, and those people derived mainly from people who were BORN in Africa, when they were freed in 1802? This population remaining fairly isolated until the 60s when PAP began to experience phenomenal growth.
Rural Peasants even have their own brand of Creole (Kreole Rek). I think you underestimate how large (and diverse) the population of Haiti actually is. Someone from Limbe (Practices a lot of very African traditions) is not the same as someone from Mirebalais (strong Dominican influence), which is VERY different from a family that originated out of Dame Marie (Franco-descent and traditions). Why do you think Haiti still has linguistic challenges? The Blacks and Mixed folks with strong French tradition and descent refuse to allow a 'Peasant' language (Kreol) to grow and define "their" nation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Face it Haiti has a unique history. Its period of slavery was shorter. Indeed 90% of the slaves brought to Haiti arrived between the 1730s and the 1750s. That is why the VAST MAJORITY were African born when the Revolution began. Most of these people became rural subsistence peasants, until the last generation or two, and so were isolated from the more mixed urban populations.
Well, every country has a unique history. Haiti has had several brain drains (who do you think got to leave ) and rural people have always replaced the P-A-P populace (mulatto, White or Black). Which is why the legitimization of Kreol, Voodoo and social equality are all part of the 'Lavalas' party platform. Aristide appeals to the Black rural-peasant masses who were marginalized by Mulattos and P-A-P Blacks since independence. Not to say all mixed Blacks were given preferential treatment. Polish descended Haitians notably are poor and rural. Arab and Syrian Haitians are only welcome to the "Club" if they have money.

You should look up how the current P.M. Lamothe wants the Diaspora to have a vote now, even though poor in-country Haitians don't. Things aren't the same now that the majority of the populace is "Moun Andeyo"(Rural Peasants; typically very Black). Haiti is just as racist as the rest of L.A.; it's just the "One-Drop" rule is less subtle and reversed in application. Notice that some of the members of the Haitian Diaspora you meet in France or MTL may be mixed race and from Jacmel or P-A-P yet most Miami Haitians (not all) are from Okap (Cap-Haitien) and very dark or "Brun".



Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Indeed the vast majority of Jamaicans with some Chinese and Indian ancestry are by now mixed, with many of these now self identifying as "black", so included in that 90%.
Not a lot of Indian, but the Chinese, Taiwanese and Cambodian descended Haitians are assimilated. You can barely tell they're Asian, if not for their last names. Haiti has been free for over 200 years, a lot of people have come and planted roots there; a lot have left as well. Mostly Black (from various territories and nations), some white, a tiny bit of Asian.

Contrary to popular (mostly American) belief, Haiti has had all kinds of contact with the outside world for over 200 years.

Anyway, this thread should be about the Haitians who would be perceived as 'White'. Why are we debating how much African descent is there compared the rest of the Caribbean?
 
Old 06-13-2014, 08:40 PM
 
3,308 posts, read 2,775,431 times
Reputation: 2888
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruhms View Post
I don't understand. You want to become white because people confuse you for white?
How can you dictate to someone you have never met what they are?

So a blonde blue eyed Latin American is not White by your standards?
 
Old 06-13-2014, 10:43 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,952,446 times
Reputation: 3799
As much as people might wish to pretend that the Haitian population is like that of Jamaica as an example it isn't.

There really isn't any reason for people to feel ashamed that Haiti, because of its unique history (because it was the only slave society to have a successful revolt), it has a larger % of its black population being purely African. And because it has retained by far the most African feel within its creolized culture.

It is what it is. The main reason why Jamaica isn't like Haiti is because none of Jamaica's slave revolts succeeded. So the plantation system and the resulting mixing that occurred between the planters and the workers lasted longer.
 
Old 06-13-2014, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn, NY $$$
6,836 posts, read 12,883,559 times
Reputation: 1587
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Supposedly some 25,000 Haitians live in Guadeloupe and 9,000 Dominicans (from Dominica) live there too. (http://www4.uwm.edu/clacs/resources/.../brodwin91.pdf , Domincans 'targeted' in Guadeloupe | Dominica News Online)

The estimates for Haitians is probably higher because I'm citing a paper from 2001. The estimate for Dominicans (from Dominica, an English-speaking island very near Guadeloupe) is only of legal immigrants, so in reality its probably higher too. This estimate, though, is of 2012.

I haven't found an estimate on the number of Dominicans (from Dominican Republic) that live there.
Went to Guadeloupe last summer and this is true. Also Guadeloupe also has a lot of Dominicans from the Dominican Republic.

100% of the prostitutes there are Dominican and I am not exxaggerating either. Huge business down there.

Thank god people from Dominica were there because i cannot understand Guadeloupe creole for nothing. The people from Dominican spoke English so it was a life saver.
 
Old 06-13-2014, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn, NY $$$
6,836 posts, read 12,883,559 times
Reputation: 1587
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
As much as people might wish to pretend that the Haitian population is like that of Jamaica as an example it isn't.

There really isn't any reason for people to feel ashamed that Haiti, because of its unique history (because it was the only slave society to have a successful revolt), it has a larger % of its black population being purely African. And because it has retained by far the most African feel within its creolized culture.

It is what it is. The main reason why Jamaica isn't like Haiti is because none of Jamaica's slave revolts succeeded. So the plantation system and the resulting mixing that occurred between the planters and the workers lasted longer.
I'm lost here. Not sure what your trying to say here. Jamaica is 90 percent Afro plain and simple. I'm simply lost because Jamaica alongside with Haiti are two of the blackest nations in the Caribbean.

When I look at videos of Jamaica there is nothing in yor statement that tells me otherwise.

It's not like Jamaicans look like African Americans, if that's what you're trying to say?
 
Old 06-13-2014, 11:17 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 1,157,557 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosa surf View Post
How can you dictate to someone you have never met what they are?

So a blonde blue eyed Latin American is not White by your standards?
Asking a question isn't dictating anything.

They are white, yes.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Americas
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top