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Old 06-29-2014, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Randolph, MA
508 posts, read 641,958 times
Reputation: 598

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Perhaps, but there are signs that points towards many Haitians actually seeing Martelly for what he is, especially when they are angry.


Mountains Behind Protests | Haiti Chery

The Haitian people that chanted the anti-mulatto cry:


http://www.dadychery.org/wp-content/...30Sep2012a.jpg


http://www.dadychery.org/wp-content/...30Sep2012b.jpg


Martelly:

http://dfghj7h6esbng.cloudfront.net/.../11/haiti9.jpg

His wife Sophia and son:


http://www.pulsamerica.co.uk/wp-cont...telly-vert.jpg

And Laurent Lamothe, who was also criticized in the anti-mulatto chant:
If all mixed race Haitians left Haiti, it'd be a worse version of what it is now. I'd be willing to wager that most of these people are descendants of Northern Haitians (at least the racist ones). They're so racist up there and slightly backwards (through no fault of their own; marginalization). This is decades of rural resentment exploding (again).

 
Old 06-30-2014, 04:23 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,925,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891 View Post
Percentage? It has to be Jamaica, I think. Even though the CIA world fact book doesn't list any White ethnic group for Jamaica.

In both nations miniscule.
 
Old 06-30-2014, 04:36 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,925,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycjowww View Post
.

I'm still confused at your terminology of Haiti and Africa.



I will suggest this. Maroons in Suriname>rural Haitians>rural Jamaicans>rural black Trinidadians (to the extent that such a population exists) if we measure African cultural survivals and ancestry.

Populations which left the plantation system earliest, and which were the most isolated from the more mixed urban elites, are going to be more African. I said more about this in earlier posts.

Trinidad becomes a special case due to its very diverse ethnic population, which pro9vides unbridled opportunities for miscegenation. With over 90% of its populations being predominantly African descent, neither Haiti, nor Jamaica are that diverse when compared to Trinidad, Suriname, Guyana and Belize.

It is amusing to me when both Jamaicans and Haitians cite examples of tiny ethnic minorities as if to down play the fact that most of the populations are virtually fully African (Haiti), or of overwhelming predominant African ancestry (Jamaica).

And BTW any one who has lived in NYC and who has met Haitians is aware of the mulato vs. black debate. Mass Native is now trying to suggest that Haitians are among the less African among Caribbean peoples of African descent.

Every single piece of evidence that he/she can cite to prove that Afro Cubans are more African is VERY EVIDENT among Haitians, even if the mulatos (and some blacks) wish to deny this.

This is like the mulatto Haitian woman who wanted to sue her doctor when sickle cell anemia was disagnosed. She screamed that she wasnt black, so couldnt have that disease.

Last edited by caribny; 06-30-2014 at 04:45 PM..
 
Old 06-30-2014, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn, NY $$$
6,836 posts, read 12,849,321 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I will suggest this. Maroons in Suriname>rural Haitians>rural Jamaicans>rural black Trinidadians (to the extent that such a population exists) if we measure African cultural survivals and ancestry.

Populations which left the plantation system earliest, and which were the most isolated from the more mixed urban elites, are going to be more African. I said more about this in earlier posts.

Trinidad becomes a special case due to its very diverse ethnic population, which pro9vides unbridled opportunities for miscegenation. With over 90% of its populations being predominantly African descent, neither Haiti, nor Jamaica are that diverse when compared to Trinidad, Suriname, Guyana and Belize.

It is amusing to me when both Jamaicans and Haitians cite examples of tiny ethnic minorities as if to down play the fact that most of the populations are virtually fully African (Haiti), or of overwhelming predominant African ancestry (Jamaica).

And BTW any one who has lived in NYC and who has met Haitians is aware of the mulato vs. black debate. Mass Native is now trying to suggest that Haitians are among the less African among Caribbean peoples of African descent.

Every single piece of evidence that he/she can cite to prove that Afro Cubans are more African is VERY EVIDENT among Haitians, even if the mulatos (and some blacks) wish to deny this.

This is like the mulatto Haitian woman who wanted to sue her doctor when sickle cell anemia was disagnosed. She screamed that she wasnt black, so couldnt have that disease.
Actually I think your are misunderstanding what mass native is saying.

You are reaching dangerous territory there.

He is speaking on culture.
 
Old 06-30-2014, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Randolph, MA
508 posts, read 641,958 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I will suggest this. Maroons in Suriname>rural Haitians>rural Jamaicans>rural black Trinidadians (to the extent that such a population exists) if we measure African cultural survivals and ancestry.
Agree 100%, except you forget that the population of rural Haitians dwarfs that of all those islands combined.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Populations which left the plantation system earliest, and which were the most isolated from the more mixed urban elites, are going to be more African. I said more about this in earlier posts.
Not necessarily true. You forget the fact that Afro-Brazilians were amongst the last to be freed. DR had Blacks too, they assimilated and DR is now a Mulatto nation with minimal African traditions outside of some rural isolated areas.


Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Mass Native is now trying to suggest that Haitians are among the less African among Caribbean peoples of African descent.
Once again, what the heck are you talking about!?!? You are stating how African Haiti is and it's a false statement. Culturally Haiti isn't very African, I don't speak for other islands. You sound like someone who is drawing conclusions based on a HDI as opposed to the nations actual traditions, history and culture.

The major Caribbean Islands contain two Mulatto nations (Cuba & DR) and two Black nations (Haiti & Jamaica). All of them have carved out ethnicities from peoples of multiple ancestries, races, and nations of orgin. TWO (DR & Haiti) of them have over 250 years of independent history and independent ongoings. No one got off the boat yesterday, brother.

African does not equal Black. Cuban Blacks are amongst the most African CULTURALLY outside of Africa because they maintain identifiable African traditions (even the Cubano-Haitiano bands play heavily African music that Haitians don't). Is Kompa, Zouk, or Méringue, African? I'll give you Rara and even then, no one in my family (or myself) has anything to do with Voodooist traditions or festivals. Someone else can talk about how African that may or may not be.

I've already said that ethnically Haitians have the most African ancestry, with Jamaica a CLOSE second (for some reason you think Jamaica isn't). But neither are all Black. Even if they were, it would not be an issue. If you want to simplify for all Jamaicans, go ahead. Haitians aren't the monolith your perceive them to be.

Most of my family is lighter than Martelly (who isn't a Mulatto, those protesters got things twisted) and have never and don't ever consider themselves Mulatto. That's why I was confused initially with the racial accusations thrown at the President. I literally had this conversation yesterday, my Grandmother would have balked at someone like Martelly in her family (glad she never met my father). Undercounted, perhaps. Miniscule? Not really.

Have you ever met a Haitian with his skin color (Grimauds and Grimels) who calls themselves Mulatto? I've only met a few delusional Haitians with that assessment. To be Mulatto one parent has to be fully Caucasian. I'm still in awe of those ignorant Lavalas protestors.
 
Old 06-30-2014, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Randolph, MA
508 posts, read 641,958 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by nycjowww View Post
Actually I think your are misunderstanding what mass native is saying.

You are reaching dangerous territory there.

He is speaking on culture.
There were a few posters who have warned me that Carib may not be actually WI (or Black). I was sure that he was before. Now I don't know. Still hasn't provided the evidence of how African Haiti is besides how long ago Haiti was freed from slavery.

Which just demostrates how long we've had to form our own culture and way of doing things. It's like talking to a wall. Haitians identify with Haiti and our culture is Haitian. Epi thats it.

Is Suriname the most 'Asian' country in the Americas? I mean they do have 27% East Indians alone. Even though their language (Sranantongo) is a Dutch based Creole with African influences.

Ge le yon Ayisyen te pran famn misye.
 
Old 07-01-2014, 01:46 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,925,572 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891 View Post
Agree 100%, except you forget that the population of rural Haitians dwarfs that of all those islands combined.



Not necessarily true. You forget the fact that Afro-Brazilians were amongst the last to be freed. DR had Blacks too, they assimilated and DR is now a Mulatto nation with minimal African traditions outside of some rural isolated areas.




Once again, what the heck are you talking about!?!? You are stating how African Haiti is and it's a false statement. Culturally Haiti isn't very African, I don't speak for other islands. You sound like someone who is drawing conclusions based on a HDI as opposed to the nations actual traditions, history and culture.

The major Caribbean Islands contain two Mulatto nations (Cuba & DR) and two Black nations (Haiti & Jamaica). All of them have carved out ethnicities from peoples of multiple ancestries, races, and nations of orgin. TWO (DR & Haiti) of them have over 250 years of independent history and independent ongoings. No one got off the boat yesterday, brother.

African does not equal Black. Cuban Blacks are amongst the most African CULTURALLY outside of Africa because they maintain identifiable African traditions (even the Cubano-Haitiano bands play heavily African music that Haitians don't). Is Kompa, Zouk, or Méringue, African? I'll give you Rara and even then, no one in my family (or myself) has anything to do with Voodooist traditions or festivals. Someone else can talk about how African that may or may not be.

I've already said that ethnically Haitians have the most African ancestry, with Jamaica a CLOSE second (for some reason you think Jamaica isn't). But neither are all Black. Even if they were, it would not be an issue. If you want to simplify for all Jamaicans, go ahead. Haitians aren't the monolith your perceive them to be.

Most of my family is lighter than Martelly (who isn't a Mulatto, those protesters got things twisted) and have never and don't ever consider themselves Mulatto. That's why I was confused initially with the racial accusations thrown at the President. I literally had this conversation yesterday, my Grandmother would have balked at someone like Martelly in her family (glad she never met my father). Undercounted, perhaps. Miniscule? Not really.

Have you ever met a Haitian with his skin color (Grimauds and Grimels) who calls themselves Mulatto? I've only met a few delusional Haitians with that assessment. To be Mulatto one parent has to be fully Caucasian. I'm still in awe of those ignorant Lavalas protestors.
I had a mulatto teacher from Haiti who taught us French. Proclaimed to be staunch Catholic, yet fled Haiti when her Duvalierist servant threatened bad spirits on her. She explained that even though she didn't engage in voodoo, its very pervasiveness in Haiti meant that it couldn't be ignored. Which is why Papa Doc made much use of it.

Cuba is NOT like that. Cuba never had a large population of blacks living isolated from others under semi subsistence conditions, and minimally influenced by the mainstream urban culture. Cuban blacks lived either on sugar estates, or in urban areas, so had to actively negotiate their way with a culture dominated by Spanish (to a lesser degree French) elites.

So while Cuba, like Haiti, had a large % of African born people when slavery ended, unlike the Haitians in their rural plots, they had to live their lives in societies dominated by people who were highly hostile towards Africanisms. Cuban blacks had to integrate into a society where whites were the largest group.

The same argument about why Haitians are more African than are Jamaicans can also be used to explain why Jamaicans are more African (culturally that is) than are Barbadians.

Barbados, a mere 166 square miles, was 100% under the control of a BRITISH elite, and unlike Jamaica and Haiti, it lacked a mulatto elite. The white planters were therefore all powerful in a way that have long ceased to be in Haiti, and even Jamaica. Indeed if there is one island where the slave owning class still dominate the economic life of a Caribbean nation that will be Barbados.

Slavery ended and a peasant class developed in Jamaica. Yes it had to maintain a relationship with the plantation economy as it couldn't subsist wholly on its peasant economy, but at least it maintained some level of isolation. Not so Barbados where until the 1960s almost every Bajan had some relationship to the plantation, had access to an educational system which was designed to eradicate Africanisms, and lacked a space to "hide" their Africanisms, because it didn't have a peasant culture to "hide" it. That is why Barbados is known, even to this day, as Little England.

The white population of Barbados was as much as 10% in the early 20th century, and even now at 3%, is the largest of the more important non Hispanic Caribbean societies. And I mean WHITE, not light skinned mulattos pretending to be white. Bajan white elites aggressively policed the color bar and the one drop rule was sharply enforced to determine who was, or wasn't white.

Last edited by caribny; 07-01-2014 at 02:29 PM..
 
Old 07-01-2014, 02:38 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,925,572 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891 View Post
There were a few posters who have warned me that Carib may not be actually WI (or Black). I was sure that he was before. Now I don't know. Still hasn't provided the evidence of how African Haiti is besides how long ago Haiti was freed from slavery.

Which just demostrates how long we've had to form our own culture and way of doing things. It's like talking to a wall. Haitians identify with Haiti and our culture is Haitian. Epi thats it.

Is Suriname the most 'Asian' country in the Americas? I mean they do have 27% East Indians alone. Even though their language (Sranantongo) is a Dutch based Creole with African influences.

Ge le yon Ayisyen te pran famn misye.
When posters cannot refute my arguments they say what they want to say, but doubtless NONE of them who claim this are Caribbean.

Suriname isn't 95% Asian. Suriname's Asian populations (Indian and Javanese) isn't even 50% of the total. Further Suriname is a nation of groups defined by sharp ethnic boundaries, so that one cannot say that Suriname as a nation, is more this than that.

What one can say about Suriname is that it has some of the most CULTURALLY Asian AND African people in the Americas.

Every piece of evidence that you use to indicate how "African" Cuban blacks are is easily applicable to Haiti. Religion. Haiti has it. Music. Haiti has it. So what is your extreme agitation about the fact that among the blacks in the Americas who have descended from slavery Haitians have retained the most Africanisms?

Also I hope you know that saying that Haiti is the most African creole society in the Americas is not the saying the same as claiming that Haiti is African. It is saying that among the myriads of nations which have a creole culture, Haiti exists at the most African end of the continuum, possibly alongside that of Salvador, Brazil. Hope this reduces your agitation as I suspect that the most African aspects of Haiti seem to embarrass you.
 
Old 07-01-2014, 03:26 PM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 12 days ago)
 
5,170 posts, read 8,022,345 times
Reputation: 4264
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891 View Post
To be Mulatto one parent has to be fully Caucasian. I'm still in awe of those ignorant Lavalas protestors.
Actually, its much wider than that.

mu·lat·to
1: the first-generation offspring of a black person and a white person
2: a person of mixed white and black ancestry
Mulatto - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

White + black = mulatto

Mulatto + mulatto = mulatto

Black + mulatto = mulatto

White + mulatto = mulatto

Each type might have a separate term, but they are all within the mixed category.

Maybe there are differences in categories between certain Haitian social circles.

People that come out looking like Martelly or like his son are usually 50/50 even if they are multigenerational mulattoes, going by quite a few results I've seen on 23andme. When people have other ancestries mixed in, lets say a little bit of Amerindian also, mulattoes like Martelly or his son tend to be 40/40 black/white and the rest whatever else is there. Sometimes the white input is slightly greater than the black one even when on their face the African features are more prominent than the European ones, as odd as that may sound. I don't think they have much of anything else, though. At least looking at them it seems its all Europe and Africa. People like them with an added touch of Amerindian usually have slanted eyes or some other feature that is not overpowering their overall look, but there is enough there that if you notice carefully you know there is something more than simply black and white in them. Again, Martelly and his son don't seem to have Amerindian mixed in or anything else for that matter.

Last edited by AntonioR; 07-01-2014 at 03:34 PM..
 
Old 07-01-2014, 03:30 PM
 
56,538 posts, read 80,847,919 times
Reputation: 12490
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Actually, its much wider than that.

mu·lat·to
1: the first-generation offspring of a black person and a white person
2: a person of mixed white and black ancestry
Mulatto - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

White + black = mulatto

Mulatto + mulatto = mulatto

Black + mulatto = mulatto

White + mulatto = mulatto

Each type might have a separate term, but they are all within the mixed category.

Maybe there are differences in categories between certain Haitian social circles.
Actually, wouldn't the last 2 be something else then? Hence terms like quadroon, octoroon and other terms in other Western Hemisphere societies?

What about the variation between different societies within the hemisphere socially?
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