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I will suggest this. Maroons in Suriname>rural Haitians>rural Jamaicans>rural black Trinidadians (to the extent that such a population exists) if we measure African cultural survivals and ancestry.
Populations which left the plantation system earliest, and which were the most isolated from the more mixed urban elites, are going to be more African. I said more about this in earlier posts.
Trinidad becomes a special case due to its very diverse ethnic population, which pro9vides unbridled opportunities for miscegenation. With over 90% of its populations being predominantly African descent, neither Haiti, nor Jamaica are that diverse when compared to Trinidad, Suriname, Guyana and Belize.
It is amusing to me when both Jamaicans and Haitians cite examples of tiny ethnic minorities as if to down play the fact that most of the populations are virtually fully African (Haiti), or of overwhelming predominant African ancestry (Jamaica).
And BTW any one who has lived in NYC and who has met Haitians is aware of the mulato vs. black debate. Mass Native is now trying to suggest that Haitians are among the less African among Caribbean peoples of African descent.
Every single piece of evidence that he/she can cite to prove that Afro Cubans are more African is VERY EVIDENT among Haitians, even if the mulatos (and some blacks) wish to deny this.
This is like the mulatto Haitian woman who wanted to sue her doctor when sickle cell anemia was disagnosed. She screamed that she wasnt black, so couldnt have that disease.
AfroColombian Palenqueros (Maroons), AfroCubans, and Afro Bahiano Brazilians are very culturally African, more so than rural Jamaicans ...because the former all have traditional African religiosity while the latter are super Protestant. AfroColombian Palenqueros have the only Bantu based Spanish creole language in the world. Many Bahiano Afro-brazilians and AfroCubanos still can speak/sing in Yoruba. Keep in MIND Brazil and Cuba were the last ones to abolish slavery in 1888 and 1886, there are living people with Black grandparents in Cuba and Brazil who were born in Africa!
I think its you guys that are not understanding what I'm saying.
For example, this is what you said:
Just because someone looks like a mullato doesn't mean that they are considered a mullato.
This is how I would had said that:
Just because someone is a mulatto doesn't mean that they are considered a mulatto.
And, in fact, I don't think I ever said anything that even remotely suggest that I'm not aware that mulattoes are not always considered mulattoes. With Obama I'm reminded of this everyday, even though it doesn't changes the fact that Obama is mulatto and in many countries around the world people don't have issues asserting reality.
What I'm saying is that being a mulatto doesn't depends on whether they are considered a mulatto in any given society. This is why even in Haiti, where according to many of you Martelly is not considered a mulatto, people still call his mulatto reality whenever they want to insult him or anyone else that is a mulatto. I highly doubt that the people that were angry with Aristide because they were not receiving his hand out at any given time called him a mulatto. There is a reason for why Martelly was called a mulatto by an angry group of black Haitians but Aristide was never called a mulatto by the people that were angry at him.
Are those Haitians she considers to be delusional because they consider Martelly to be mulatto truly delusional?
Change Martelly for Cory Booker (47% African + 45% European).
Lets assume that Cory Booker is Haitian. Are Haitians that consider him to be mulatto truly delusional? Is it delusional to consider a person that is almost as black as he is white mixed or is the delusion to consider him just black or just white?
The people that were favored by Aristide considered him black and the people that were angry with Aristide considered him black too. Why is that?
Why is Aristide always considered black, but Martelly is only black in certain circumstances?
This reminds me of the honorary white category that used to exist in South Africa, except that in Haiti it could be said its an honorary black category. Such a situation applies to people that are not really those things, hence the condition of considering them white or black depending on the mood of the crowd but pointing out who they really are when they are angry.
I know that, but I'm getting the impression that there's a tendency to want to deny the fact that Martelly is mulatto, regardless if he's considered one in Haitian society.
I would not say Martelly is a mulatto, he looks way more than 50% African and way less than 50% European. He's predominantly African with some European ancestry. Even lightskinned Tom Joyner was only around 35% European and 65% African on his DNA TEST. Martelly could be in that same range or even more African.
.. The difference is Black Jamaicans are basically straight up West African while Haiti is not so there's a different look to the people..".
Are you attempting to portray Haitians as some mulatto group?
Given that a person who is 90% African is hardly mulatto, and indeed is probably not that phenotypically different from some one who is 100%, then where is the assertion that some one claims that Jamaicans are mulatto?
So why the angst when it is pointing out that logic suggests that a genetically "isolated" group of individuals whose ancestry remained untransformed since the slavery is likely to be larger in Haiti (and in certain rural villages in Guyana) than in other parts of the Caribbean? The only pool of such individuals likely to be proportionately larger will be that of the Maroon communities of Suriname.
I have said my piece on this subject and invite an explanation from you as to how Haitians are LESS African (culturally and ancestrally) than Jamaicans are, despite their earlier exit from the plantation system, and the fact that the bulk of those leaving the plantation system in Haiti in the late 18th century were AFRICAN BORN, unlike the mainly local born in Jamaica, as their plantation system lasted well into the 1950s.
As to that West vs. Central African shock. I didn't know that Liberians looked like people from SE Nigeria, or that people from the Congo regions looked dramatically different, so the fact that a higher % of Haitians have ancestry linked to the Congo basin is neither here nor there. Especially as more slaves were taken from West Africa in any case. Your voodoo having its origins in the Togo/Benin region.
AfroColombian Palenqueros (Maroons), AfroCubans, and Afro Bahiano Brazilians are very culturally African, more so than rural Jamaicans !
And Haitians are very much a part of all of this for the same reasons.
1. When slavery ended a high % of the people were still African born in Haiti (because slavery ended early), and in Cuba and Brazil because slaves were carried to those colonies in large numbers late in the day.
2. In the case of the rural Haitians and the Palenqueros and those living in similar communities in Brazil there were ISOLATED.
I am not even sure whether I would include Afro Cubans in this group to the extent that you do. Maybe you do so because of the survival of their religions, but then voodoo (similar in many respects to the Yoruba religions, even sharing some of the same dieties) is very strong in Haiti.
Why are SOME Haitians in denial of these facts?
Also a dialect of Yoruba is spoken in remote regions of Bahia. It is only sung by rote in Cuba, and many WHITE Cubans are also involved. Indeed there isn't even a creole Spanish spoken in Cuba. the day to day speech of black Cubans is almost identical to that of other Cubans. The creole spoken in Haiti has definite African influences, and is more African than any form of day to day speech among Cubans is.
Does the fact that some Catholics chant their liturgy in Latin make them Romans? Does the fact that the white Cubans who participate in Afro Cuban religions (some are even priests) chant Lucumi by rote make them African? Puerto Ricans are also involved in these religions, What of that?
Are you attempting to portray Haitians as some mulatto group?
Not at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
So why the angst when it is pointing out that logic suggests that a genetically "isolated" group of individuals whose ancestry remained untransformed since the slavery is likely to be larger in Haiti (and in certain rural villages in Guyana) than in other parts of the Caribbean? The only pool of such individuals likely to be proportionately larger will be that of the Maroon communities of Suriname.
Actually the Jamaican maroons and Surinamese maroons have a connection. Jamaica, Antigua, St. Kitts etc has had 100% African DNA results but I still have not seen the first Haitian to score this on 23andMe or anywhere. Do you have any to cite? Haitians are consistently 10-15% European. This is just indication of how ANGLO societies have been more racially segregated while Haiti has more in common with "Latin America".
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
I have said my piece on this subject and invite an explanation from you as to how Haitians are LESS African (culturally and ancestrally) than Jamaicans are, despite their earlier exit from the plantation system, and the fact that the bulk of those leaving the plantation system in Haiti in the late 18th century were AFRICAN BORN, unlike the mainly local born in Jamaica, as their plantation system lasted well into the 1950s.
So Africans being born in Jamaica makes them less African by DNA than those born on the continent? Being born in Jamaica does not automatically mean you're mixed. As far as culture goes, most Haitians are Catholics and most Jamaicans are Protestants however both countries have African syncretised religions: Haiti has Voudoun, Jamaica has Obeah and Kumina. I've heard Haitians and Jamaicans bad mouth them my whole life.
See the thing is for those who identify as Hispanic and are actually mixed-race and don't acknowledge their African and/or Native ancestry, they're already saying they're white. Hispanic= White. Hispanic was only used in our countries for the Hispanic colonizers and it was not used for mixed race children, and much less the Africans and Indigenous peoples. The USA does not know our history and chose to call us ALL Hispanic, and that's where they went wrong. We're not all Hispanic, and at the minimum we're not all JUST Hispanic.
See the thing is for those who identify as Hispanic and are actually mixed-race and don't acknowledge their African and/or Native ancestry, they're already saying they're white. Hispanic= White. Hispanic was only used in our countries for the Hispanic colonizers and it was not used for mixed race children, and much less the Africans and Indigenous peoples. The USA does not know our history and chose to call us ALL Hispanic, and that's where they went wrong. We're not all Hispanic, and at the minimum we're not all JUST Hispanic.
Is Latino better? I don't like that Latino word. I personally think we should call ourselves Americans (from the Americas) but US citizens already stole that word and they don't feel like sharing.
Is Latino better? I don't like that Latino word. I personally think we should call ourselves Americans (from the Americas) but US citizens already stole that word and they don't feel like sharing.
Well it would certainly confuse people in most parts of the world, if everyone from the Americas chose to identify themselves as Americans first and foremost.
Actually the Jamaican maroons and Surinamese maroons have a connection. Jamaica, Antigua, St. Kitts etc has had 100% African DNA results but I still have not seen the first Haitian to score this on 23andMe or anywhere. Do you have any to cite? Haitians are consistently 10-15% European. This is just indication of how ANGLO societies have been more racially segregated while Haiti has more in common with "Latin America".
So Africans being born in Jamaica makes them less African by DNA than those born on the continent? Being born in Jamaica does not automatically mean you're mixed. As far as culture goes, most Haitians are Catholics and most Jamaicans are Protestants however both countries have African syncretised religions: Haiti has Voudoun, Jamaica has Obeah and Kumina. I've heard Haitians and Jamaicans bad mouth them my whole life.
23andme only measures those who pay and submit materials to allow tests. All one can say from this is that the 100% African Haitians have no interest in their ancestry, maybe because they already know what it is.
When slavery ended in Haiti the bulk of the slaves were African born.
It was the Haitian Revolution which had a great transformative impact on Haiti. The white plantation based population fled. The plantation system collapsed. The majority of the African born slaves moved to live in isolated communities, basically becoming genetic islands, with minimal contact with the more mixed urban populations.
Slavery in the rest of the non Hispanic Caribbean lasted 1 or 2 generations longer. But here is where it gets interesting. Unlike Haiti where the slave trade was still active when slavery ended, it continued AFTER the slave trade ended, meaning that the vast majority of the slaves were creoles, not African born, when freedom came.
Clearly the probability of slave been born out of some interaction with a white or a mulatto becomes a possibility if they are plantation born. So the higher the % of slaves who were plantation born the greater the probability of some non African ancestry.
To make even MORE interesting. In Haiti the bulk of the descendants of these slaves became genetically isolated from the rest of the population, as they lived in isolated communities with minimum contact with outsiders.
In these other islands the plantation systems remained, and the social exploitation which went with it (including coerced liaisons between white/mulatto managers and black female workers) survived.
Now it is easy to peddle the nonsense that English planters were these prudes who didn't have sex with the plantation workers. NONSENSE! Not only were most of the estates managed by single men, but most being socially inferior to the white females available. So they had no release other than the non white women. In addition even MARRIED planters had their concubines and mistresses.
Of course we can add to that the mulattos who replaced them, maintained the same behavior, and this is why we are dealing with a much smaller population living in genetic isolation.
Now aI will be interested to hear a theory which makes sense to justify why the rural Haitian subsistence farmers are more mixed than similar Jamaicans, despite the much longer period that these Jamaicans retained some degree of contact to the plantation.
I will say within the Caribbean a similar genetically isolated pool of non Maroon blacks will be in some villages in Guyana. This is because there was a fairly significant importation of Africans AFTER slavery, some captured from boats where they were being illegally transported to Cuba, and others who came in as indentured workers. They too separated from the plantation system after Indian indentures replaced them. Many moving to villages with the co-ethnics. Indeed there are villages where some of the older folks can tell you which ethnic African groups established those settlements.
I frequently hear Millennials claim that they don't "care about race", this as they parade around in the 100% white groups (maybe with some Asians thrown in) with a token one or two blacks.
They are raised in a country based on race. They grow up thinking that "whiteness" is the norm against which others will be judged. And they have a preference for hiring people like themselves (whites) just as their parents do, once they have some level of authority.
They think that they are post racial because they voted for Obama, and love Chris Roc, and hip hop. Yes the fictive black who they see on TV. Not the real ones who are with them in the college class rooms!
Not to say that they are as resistant to dealing with others as their parents, and especially their grand parents are. Progress has been made. But MORE progress needs to be made, and this arrogant "we don't think about race" which is their way of shutting down any conversations about race, isn't the way for this to occur.
Not thinking/talking about race doesn't mean that racism doesn't occur. Latin America illustrates this point quite LOUDLY!
But Americans have evolved tremendously, not long ago, Italians and Jews were not considered a part of their society, Irish were deemed as Papist rats...etc...
Now they have that "Anglo" thing that comprises about anything, with time the Anglo group will include non-white Hispanics.
After all, the Anglo classification is rather political and economical, not ethnical.
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