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Old 07-24-2014, 11:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891 View Post
NoBoyer was in Haiti when the constitution explicitly stated that all HAITIANS were BLACK. them.

Wasn't Boyer mulatto? Did he not succeed Petion when mulattos ruled the southern part of Haiti? Please don't jump away from that point. Nor play the mulatto victim card, which is laughable when we see who traditionally has been the elites in Haiti.

It is clear that Boyer had a strong mulatto identity. He united Haiti under HIS rule, doing so from the position of being head of the mulatto ruled part of Haiti.. I some how get the impression that mulattos weren't suffering then.

Despite what Haitians feel about other blacks, and how blacks feel towards them, Haitians do not live among Latin Americans. Not in Miami, which is fundamentally a Latin American city. Nor do they in NYC which has the largest Dominican population in the world outside of the DR.

The question that you need to answer is why don't Latin Americans in the USA embrace Haitians if you are all part of one happy Latin family? Apparently even though other blacks have had reservations about Haitians, especially in the era when they were stigmatized as "boat people", and "AIDs carriers", Haitians still didn't opt to live in Hialeah with the Cubans, or in Washington Heights with the Dominicans. They live in North Miami and in Flatbush and Canarsie in Brooklyn.

This is about residential choices which HAITIANs make.

 
Old 07-25-2014, 12:55 AM
 
Location: Hyde Park, MA
517 posts, read 663,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Wasn't Boyer mulatto? Did he not succeed Petion when mulattos ruled the southern part of Haiti? Please don't jump away from that point. Nor play the mulatto victim card, which is laughable when we see who traditionally has been the elites in Haiti.

It is clear that Boyer had a strong mulatto identity. He united Haiti under HIS rule, doing so from the position of being head of the mulatto ruled part of Haiti.. I some how get the impression that mulattos weren't suffering then.

Despite what Haitians feel about other blacks, and how blacks feel towards them, Haitians do not live among Latin Americans. Not in Miami, which is fundamentally a Latin American city. Nor do they in NYC which has the largest Dominican population in the world outside of the DR.

The question that you need to answer is why don't Latin Americans in the USA embrace Haitians if you are all part of one happy Latin family? Apparently even though other blacks have had reservations about Haitians, especially in the era when they were stigmatized as "boat people", and "AIDs carriers", Haitians still didn't opt to live in Hialeah with the Cubans, or in Washington Heights with the Dominicans. They live in North Miami and in Flatbush and Canarsie in Brooklyn.

This is about residential choices which HAITIANs make.
Once again you mentioned a bunch of American cities. Race is everything in the USA. Not so in Canada or Europe. Culture and ethnicity actually matter there. I also pointed out Haitians tend to gravitate towards Quebec but I can add Martinique as well. Wealthy and Upper Middle Class Haitians educate their children in the DR and SA. Not the English Speaking West Indies.

Also Latin Family? No. Latinos (besides Venezuelans and Cubans) don't know about what Petion did for Bolivar. Latinos were just as much of a fraud when it came to solidarity as the future Caribbean nations. At least Dominicans have a reason to dislike us. What about y'all? Spanish Speaking people stick together (especially in non-Hispanic nations) but let's not act like The Black Caribbean and Haiti have nearly the same relationship.

Do Haitians from Haiti feel more of a connection with West Indians than anyone else? Not really. Haitians live amongst other Blacks in America because that's how it is. Haitian neighborhoods in Montreal typically are split with Italians and Latinos. Jamaicans live in NDG. Far away from them. In France? They assimilate. Black West Indians are a distinct group in the UK.
 
Old 07-25-2014, 01:03 AM
 
Location: Hyde Park, MA
517 posts, read 663,432 times
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Yes Boyer was a mixed race person but he was regarded as Black by the people and the world. He was deposed by Mulatto elites so he wasn't exactly Petion. My personal favorite Haitian Founding Father. Boyer was a tyrant anyway.
 
Old 07-25-2014, 06:47 AM
 
695 posts, read 760,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Whether or not the languages spoken in Haiti are Latin based, Haiti's history and culture are very different.

Its history parallels that of the non Hispanic Caribbean, with its plantation based slavery, and the overwhelming dominance of the enslaved population (90%) of the total. Even Cuba and Brazil were never as demographically dominated by slaves, and they had plantation based slaves systems to a much greater degree than any where else in Latin America.

Haiti's revolution seriously transformed that island's culture and identity. I will invite you to debate with Dominicans about how "Latin" they think that Haiti is. That conversation will be very interesting, as teh whole essence in being Dominican, is not being Haitian, and having a culture based on Latin America.

I will submit to you that the average person in Guadeloupe has way more in common with the average person in St Kitts than they do with your typical Mexican. So even Guadeloupe, which is now an integral part of France, cannot be considered a Latin culture.

They speak French in Quebec. Do you suggest that Haitians have the culture as the Quebecois?

Haiti is part of the non Hispanic Caribbean! All one needs to look at is which parts of New York City do Haitians chose to reside. They DONT live with Dominicans and Cubans. THey DO live with Jamaicans, Trinidadians and Guyanese, and are very active participants in the West Indian Day carnival in Brooklyn. Ditto for the minute numbers of immigrants from Guadeloupe and Martinique who live in NYC.
Sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree.

There's no prototypical "Latin" culture. No, people from Guadeloupe likely don't have much in common with a Mexican, but the exact same thing could be said about a Dominican for that matter. Yes, the Dominican national identity is largely constructed in opposition to Haitianness and African-ness, but that doesn't negate the massive African influence in that country's culture and in the cultures of PR and Cuba as well, and the blend of African influences with European, Catholic influences that tie us together in alot of ways. These are Caribbean countries first and foremost, and the idea of Latin America as one cultural monolith is fundamentally invalid. The litmus test for being "Latin" is speaking a romance language, period. Otherwise, why would one hold up countries in the Western Hemisphere which have HEAVY cultural admixture from Africa and from Indigenous peoples of the New World as the standard for what is Latin? Haiti is part of the non-Hispanic Caribbean obviously, but that doesn't make them necessarily more similar to Anglo-Caribbean people.

Furthermore, the fact that Haitians don't live with Dominicans and Cubans is irrelevant, when you consider that more Haitians live in the Hispanophone Caribbean than in the Anglophone Caribbean. Historically, Haiti has had more cultural, intellectual and historical ties with Cuba and the Dominican Republic than with Jamaica or the Bahamas, and that persisted well into the 1980's. For the most part, the Anglophone Caribbean isn't even on the typical Haitian person's radar at all until they get to the United States. You're reading wayyyy too much into where Haitians choose to settle as a marker of what they identify as. Most Colombians, Peruvians and Brazilians don't live near any Dominicans or Cubans in NY either and you wouldn't make that assumption that they aren't "Latin".

Above all, Haitians are Haitian. Most similarities lie between Haitians and other Creole-speaking peoples in the Caribbean like Guadeloupe, Martinique, Dominica & St Lucia.

Last edited by lexdiamondz1902; 07-25-2014 at 07:06 AM..
 
Old 07-25-2014, 07:03 AM
 
4 posts, read 5,158 times
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Taíno - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Old 07-25-2014, 07:12 AM
 
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There are white Haitions, most more are recent arrivals, many Lebanese. Hautionsm or Cubans, don't5 have aby relation with the rest of the continents whatsoever.
 
Old 07-25-2014, 01:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario View Post
In today's Cuba, Panama, and Dominican Republic, people who descend from Africans are in the majority. There are substantial black minorities in other parts of Central and South America. Whites aren't the majority anywhere save Chile, Argentina and Uruguay, though they too are a substantial population.
Most of the Latin American nations are mixed. Most people descend from multiple ancestries all simaltaneously together at once. It all is subjective & comes down to self identity.
 
Old 07-25-2014, 01:16 PM
 
1,554 posts, read 1,516,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Here's a citation for Costa Rica. The average person is 61% European, 30% Indigenous, and 9% African, which by any realistic measure would be considered mixed-race.

This more recent study found 43% European, 38% Indigenous, and 15% African, but was in an isolated rural area of the Pacific Coast which might not be indicative of the country as a whole.

Speaking personally, having spent some time in Costa Rica, the people did not seem much lighter-skinned than Mexicans. Some of them talked about how all the "darker" people were recent Nicaraguan immigrants, but I just didn't see much of a difference. Certainly unlike say Argentina the vast majority of people do have more or less the classic "Mestizo look."
People seem to be going by looks. The term mestizo really just means "mixed". Most mestizos have notable African ancestry.
 
Old 07-25-2014, 02:08 PM
 
1,554 posts, read 1,516,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Costa Rica does has the highest positive migration rate in Latin America (positive means more people migrating into, rather than out of, the country). Also Nicaragua has a very strong emigration rate and most of them don't really migrate northwards.

Costa Rica 0.84
Chile 0.35
Argentina 0
Venezuela 0
Paraguay -0.08
Ecuador -0.13
Brazil -0.15
Panama -0.32
Colombia -0.65
Bolivia -0.69
Uruguay -1.08
Honduras -1.18
Mexico -1.64
Dominican Republic -1.93
Guatemala -2.00
Peru -2.69
Nicaragua -3.13
Cuba -3.64
Haiti -4.12
El Salvador -8.44
Puerto Rico -8.93

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...elds/2112.html

In small countries such as Costa Rica, massive illegal immigration from a neighboring country can only take a couple of decades to change the population dynamics of the receiving country. For example, the decades old migration flow in the Guanacaste peninsula, on the Pacific coast of Costa Rica, has turn that place into practically an extension of Nicaragua. The Nicaraguan presence there is so strong that it actually feels more like Nicaragua than Costa Rica.

Also, as is often the case in large illegal migration groups, probably more than a few Nicaraguan immigrants try to pass as Costa Ricans. Most foreigners would probably fall for it, but local Costa Ricans (as do local people anywhere on earth) are quick to pick up on the mannerisms that distinguishes their truly local people vs those of recent migration waves or that are migrants themselves.

The only foreigners (tourists or expats) that could probably be able to say if the population dynamics has suffered a shift are those that either have been living there for decades and witnessed the change or those that traveled there a long time ago and recently visited again. These last ones will definitely notice the change because in their memories is the Costa Rica they visited 20 or 30 years ago and suddenly they find themselves with the 'new' Costa Rica.

I know that in San Jose, the capital of Costa Rica, in many areas most of the pedestrian are actually Nicaraguan, especially in the downtown area of the city. That wasn't the case many decades ago.
Something to consider about Costa Rica; Guanacaste region is historically part of Nicaragua, and many Nicaraguans still yearn for the annexation of it back into Nicaragua. Costa Ricans also stole land from the Panamanians in what is now the Puntarenas region, and led to a serious war known as Guerra de Coto. Many people in Puntarenas identify more with Panamanians, and are descendants of people that had been allied with & swore allegiance to the Republic of Panama. Many still identify more so with Panama today

Territorial disputes of Nicaragua - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Partido de Nicoya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Guerra de Coto - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre


Tratado Echandi-Fernández - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
 
Old 07-26-2014, 02:58 PM
 
7,835 posts, read 6,227,805 times
Reputation: 4082
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891 View Post
Once again you mentioned a bunch of American cities. Race is everything in the USA. Not so in Canada or Europe. Culture and ethnicity actually matter there. I also pointed out Haitians tend to gravitate towards Quebec but I can add Martinique as well. Wealthy and Upper Middle Class Haitians educate their children in the DR and SA. Not the English Speaking West Indies.

Also Latin Family? No. Latinos (besides Venezuelans and Cubans) don't know about what Petion did for Bolivar. Latinos were just as much of a fraud when it came to solidarity as the future Caribbean nations. At least Dominicans have a reason to dislike us. What about y'all? Spanish Speaking people stick together (especially in non-Hispanic nations) but let's not act like The Black Caribbean and Haiti have nearly the same relationship.

Do Haitians from Haiti feel more of a connection with West Indians than anyone else? Not really. Haitians live amongst other Blacks in America because that's how it is. Haitian neighborhoods in Montreal typically are split with Italians and Latinos. Jamaicans live in NDG. Far away from them. In France? They assimilate. Black West Indians are a distinct group in the UK.

St Maarten/Martin is an interesting case in that it is a West Indian island with different colonial "rulers". Culturally its more aligned with the nearby Afro/Anglo CREOLE Caribbean islands, especially Anguilla and the Virgin Islands (both British and US).

Part of the island is under French control so has attracted a large migrant population of French metropoles, whom from what I can see, seem to form the largest bloc of the labor force there, and who dominate both the top public and private sector slots. There is also a large Haitian population, and decent numbers of people from Guadeloupe. Dominicans are also on the island, but mainly on the more prosperous "Dutch" side.


The Haitian and French (metropole) populations DO NOT mix with each other. They are DISTINCT communities with very little contact or identification with each other. The communities where the French metropoles live are very white communities, this in a majority black island, so it is clear that they have no desire to live near any black group (French Antillean, Haitian, or local St Martiners). To the extent that they interact with any black group, it will be the French Antilleans, most of whom occupy the mid tier slots in the public sector.

So really the notion that the French identify with Haitians is a joke. The French are like every other European group. Haughty and disdainful to non European cultures. In France, as in the UK, and for that matter Spain, Caribbean immigrants (even those arriving as French citizens from the DOMs) have had a hard time integrating. The fact that the more educated cohorts might eventually assimilate comes at the cost of them having to relinquish their own rich cultural traditions.

Haitians are an Afro/French CREOLE culture. Not French.
.

Now let us look at Miami. It has a large population of Cubans, Haitians and Jamaicans. A study of residential segregation of Miami indicates that Haitians are MORE segregated from Hispanics, than are blacks on the whole, and even more than are Jamaicans. And this in an instance where African Americans, Jamaicans and Haitians are as segregated from Hispanics as they are from non Hispanic whites.


So looking at St Martin and Miami it is clear that Haitians are a distinct group. Not connected either to the Anglophone Caribbean, nor to Latin America, and only TO SOME degree, interacting with the French Antilles.
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