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Old 07-26-2014, 10:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891 View Post
Yes Boyer was a mixed race person but he was regarded as Black by the people and the world. He was deposed by Mulatto elites so he wasn't exactly Petion. My personal favorite Haitian Founding Father. Boyer was a tyrant anyway.

Every Haitian was regarded as black in the 19th century by every one outside Haiti. Petion would have been as well, so I don't understand your point. Do you want to take the ones who like and call them mulatto, and toss back the ones who don't?

Boyer came from a wealthy mulatto family. One who achieved this status even as Haiti was a French colony. Was educated in France and I feel sure that his family owned slaves. Moreover he was a Petion protégé and positioned to replace him. The fact that OTHER mulattos dumped him is beside the point.

 
Old 07-26-2014, 11:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
Sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree.



Above all, Haitians are Haitian. Most similarities lie between Haitians and other Creole-speaking peoples in the Caribbean like Guadeloupe, Martinique, Dominica & St Lucia.

I agree, and these islands have an Afro/French CREOLE culture and so calling them Latin Americans is hilarious.

As to Haitians living in the Hispanic Caribbean. Well immigrants from the Anglophone islands also migrated to Cuba and to the DR as well. The DR also attracted black American migrants, invited in by Haiti, by the way.

In BOTH instances the descendants of these immigrants from the Anglophone world are better regarded by the Cubans and Dominicans, and have assimilated to a much better degree. The bulk of the Haitians and their descendants in the DR remain an impoverished and extremely socially excluded minority group. This is true to a some what lesser degree in Cuba as well.

When ever the issue of treatment of Dominico Haitians comes up, and some blame racist attitudes of Dominicans as the cause, their response is always to cite the equally black Cocolos and Samana Americans as evidence that this is not true.

So if Haitians are Latin Americans why all the angst with Dominicans, over time have accepted other blacks who came from the Anglophone world?

Haitians are Haitians, because of Haiti's unique history. That nation suffered wounds, both inflicted on it by the outside world, and by its elites (BOTH THE BLACK AND MULATTO). As a result it has become by far the most impoverished and troubled nation, manifesting many of the pathologies of sub Saharan Africa. So it is not held in high regard by people elsewhere in the Americas, and Haitians have had to deal with that.

If Haitians are Latin because French is a Romantic language, as is Spanish, then the blackest most cultural African Jamaican is an Anglo Saxon like a New Zealander. I will hope you will see how ridiculous such a comparison is.
 
Old 07-26-2014, 11:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
Your point? Haitians are Latin in terms of the French & French Creole based influence as rootzdread stated already. French & even Spanish cultural influences in Haiti have a strong based imprint, just as in DR vice versa..

And Jamaican Maroons are Anglo Saxon as well. Indeed why not throw India into that as well. yes India is an Anglo Saxon country. Throw in Nigeria, indeed every single country which was formerly a British colony, where English is spoken and where the British have left their cultural stamp!
 
Old 07-27-2014, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Randolph, MA
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Haitians are Haitian. Exactly. Not Culturally Latino or WI. Afro-French Antillean.
 
Old 07-27-2014, 02:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I agree, and these islands have an Afro/French CREOLE culture and so calling them Latin Americans is hilarious.
But if that's the case, then calling ANYONE in the Western Hemisphere Latin American is hilarious. The cultures of Cuba, PR and DR are for the most part Afro-Spanish Creoles, so why can they be called Latin Americans? Same for mainland hispanophone countries that have more Amerindian admixture-is it ridiculous to call them Latin American?

Quote:
As to Haitians living in the Hispanic Caribbean. Well immigrants from the Anglophone islands also migrated to Cuba and to the DR as well. The DR also attracted black American migrants, invited in by Haiti, by the way.

In BOTH instances the descendants of these immigrants from the Anglophone world are better regarded by the Cubans and Dominicans, and have assimilated to a much better degree. The bulk of the Haitians and their descendants in the DR remain an impoverished and extremely socially excluded minority group. This is true to a some what lesser degree in Cuba as well.

When ever the issue of treatment of Dominico Haitians comes up, and some blame racist attitudes of Dominicans as the cause, their response is always to cite the equally black Cocolos and Samana Americans as evidence that this is not true.

So if Haitians are Latin Americans why all the angst with Dominicans, over time have accepted other blacks who came from the Anglophone world?
But listen to yourself - if Dominicans were able to better integrate Black immigrants from the British West Indies and North America, then obviously the problem with Haitians is not because they aren't percieved as Latin American or for any cultural differences, especially when Haitians have far more in common culturally with Dominicans than Anglophone West Indians do. Haitians migrate to DR in FAR higher numbers than any other group mentioned and continue to do so to this day, the population of Dominican-Haitians is larger than the population of all the Anglophone islands of the Eastern Caribbean from the VI down to Grenada combined. Add to that the two centuries of conflict and several invasions and there are obvious reasons why Haitians are regarded poorly in DR.

Quote:
Haitians are Haitians, because of Haiti's unique history. That nation suffered wounds, both inflicted on it by the outside world, and by its elites (BOTH THE BLACK AND MULATTO). As a result it has become by far the most impoverished and troubled nation, manifesting many of the pathologies of sub Saharan Africa. So it is not held in high regard by people elsewhere in the Americas, and Haitians have had to deal with that.

If Haitians are Latin because French is a Romantic language, as is Spanish, then the blackest most cultural African Jamaican is an Anglo Saxon like a New Zealander. I will hope you will see how ridiculous such a comparison is.
Again, if that's the case then it's just as ridiculous to call a Dominican or Bolivian Latin American. You can't call bullsh!te on Haitians being classed as Latin American because of their racial and cultural origins and not question the logic behind calling any other Western Hemisphere nation by that same title. 1 in 10 Mexicans and 1 in 3 Ecuadorians don't even speak Spanish as a first language, but rather speak Indigenous languages, and 90% of Paraguayans speak Guarani.
 
Old 07-28-2014, 12:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
But if that's the case, then calling ANYONE in the Western Hemisphere Latin American is hilarious. The cultures of Cuba, PR and DR are for the most part Afro-Spanish Creoles, so why can they be called Latin Americans? Same for mainland hispanophone countries that have more Amerindian admixture-is it ridiculous to call them Latin American?



But listen to yourself - if Dominicans were able to better integrate Black immigrants from the British West Indies and North America, then obviously the problem with Haitians is not because they aren't percieved as Latin American or for any cultural differences, especially when Haitians have far more in common culturally with Dominicans than Anglophone West Indians do. Haitians migrate to DR in FAR higher numbers than any other group mentioned and continue to do so to this day, the population of Dominican-Haitians is larger than the population of all the Anglophone islands of the Eastern Caribbean from the VI down to Grenada combined. Add to that the two centuries of conflict and several invasions and there are obvious reasons why Haitians are regarded poorly in DR.



Again, if that's the case then it's just as ridiculous to call a Dominican or Bolivian Latin American. You can't call bullsh!te on Haitians being classed as Latin American because of their racial and cultural origins and not question the logic behind calling any other Western Hemisphere nation by that same title. 1 in 10 Mexicans and 1 in 3 Ecuadorians don't even speak Spanish as a first language, but rather speak Indigenous languages, and 90% of Paraguayans speak Guarani.


Tell you what. In Miami Haitians are MORE segregated from Hispanics than are Jamaicans.

Tell you what Puerto Ricans have their issues with Dominicans but they live together in NYC and have a high degree of social association, including intermarriage.

The vast majority of Haitians live among West Indians, and not Caribbean Hispanics.

Haiti joined CARICOM. The DR is part of CAFTA-DR. Why not Haiti?


You can beg and beg and beg for those Latin Americans to accept you as one of them, but it ain't happening!
 
Old 07-28-2014, 12:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891 View Post
Haitians are Haitian. Exactly. Not Culturally Latino or WI. Afro-French Antillean.

Exactly that. Haiti has had a unique history which has made them a unique people. The closest will be the Afro French creoles of the Eastern Caribbean, but even then Haiti stands off as unique.

Haitians are neither West Indians (people from the Anglophone Caribbean) nor are the Latin Caribbean (Cuba, DR, PR and from the Caribbean coasts of Panama, Colombia, and Venezuela).
 
Old 07-28-2014, 02:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Tell you what. In Miami Haitians are MORE segregated from Hispanics than are Jamaicans.

Tell you what Puerto Ricans have their issues with Dominicans but they live together in NYC and have a high degree of social association, including intermarriage.

The vast majority of Haitians live among West Indians, and not Caribbean Hispanics.

Haiti joined CARICOM. The DR is part of CAFTA-DR. Why not Haiti?


You can beg and beg and beg for those Latin Americans to accept you as one of them, but it ain't happening!
you're using social phenomena in the USA to define cultural realities in the Caribbean and that makes no sense. using your logic Italians are more like the Irish than spaniards since they intermarry more frequently
 
Old 07-28-2014, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Randolph, MA
508 posts, read 641,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post

Haiti joined CARICOM. The DR is part of CAFTA-DR. Why not Haiti?
Why would DR include Haiti in CAFTA-DR? Haiti has very little to offer right now, not to mention DR doesn't need trade regulations to dominate the Haitian market. DR and Haiti have tiffs over border controls and trade habitually. That and very many other reasons make it logical that DR would keep trade with Haiti exactly the way it is. It's very imbalanced right now.

DR is trying to join Caricom anyway and the only reason it's been slowed down is because of relations on the island.
 
Old 07-28-2014, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Randolph, MA
508 posts, read 641,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
you're using social phenomena in the USA to define cultural realities in the Caribbean and that makes no sense. using your logic Italians are more like the Irish than spaniards since they intermarry more frequently
Exactly. Haitians were not a part of the WI psyche until recently.

Whereas some Panamanians will enjoy Haitiano music, Chile can have a player of Haitian descent, Dominican players are accused of being Haitian, Second language of Cuba is Haitian Creole, DRs largest immigrant group throughout it's history alongside Spaniards is Haitianos, recognition for Haitians Historical leaders, shared Roman Catholic beliefs, Pentecostal Revival (Brazilians and other LA), etc.

Do any Island Jamaicans have any cultural sharings with Island Haitians that Latin Americans might not have besides being Black? Not that i've seen. in the US everything IS based on race.

In the Americas, your average educated Jamaican will not care/know that Jamaican Maroons were involved in the Haitian Revolution. The average educated Dominican can tell you all about what Boyer did to DR, how Trujillo hated all Blacks not just Haitians, how they lost Plateau Central, etc. Nowadays in Venezuela and Cuba you do hear about Petion and how Haiti aided Bolivar. Do WIs talk about Haiti for any other reason other than illegal immigration? Of course not. Haiti never left a mark in the WI. It did in LA.

You might hear a person from France, DR, Quebec, Cape Verde, Senegal, Ghana, Martinique or even Brazil listening to Zouk or Kompa. But never a Jamaican or Bajan. That's not their culture and they will let you know it. It ain't even close.

That's why saying Haitians are more interrelated with WIs doesn't make sense. In a language, song, religion and dance perspective we have more in common with nations in La Francophonie and LA. Especially the Caribbean and African ones.
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