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Old 07-29-2014, 10:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
you're using social phenomena in the USA to define cultural realities in the Caribbean and that makes no sense. using your logic Italians are more like the Irish than spaniards since they intermarry more frequently

You are totally confusing yourself.

Its that simple. Miami is a Latin controlled city and Latinos don't want Haitians around them. They isolate Haitians as much as whites do. Non Hispanic whites don't live around Hispanics, except in the most affluent communities, so the culprit isn't US style racism.

Puerto Ricans and Dominicans by and large don't live around whites in NYC, except in gentrifying neighborhoods. So what prevents Haitians from living among them? If Haitians feel an affinity to them why do they not live with them? And please note that most NYC neighborhoods with Puerto Ricans and Dominican populations also have high AFRICAN AMERICAN populations.

Dominicans are LESS segregated from African Americans in NYC than they are from Haitians.

If there were more Spaniards in NYC than Irish then the Italians would marry them, so that example is quite twisted.

Haitians are an Afro French CREOLE group. Were there large communities of French Antilleans I could well imagine that Haitians would live among them. Their relationship would likely be akin to the Puerto Rican/DR one. Fraught with tensions, but also brought together by cultural commonality. But there are no French Antillean communities in NYC so Haitians chose the least bad choice, other non Hispanic black immigrants.

 
Old 07-29-2014, 10:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891 View Post
Exactly. Haitians were not a part of the WI psyche until recently.

Whereas some Panamanians will enjoy Haitiano music, Chile can have a player of Haitian descent, Dominican players are accused of being Haitian, Second language of Cuba is Haitian Creole, DRs largest immigrant group throughout it's history alongside Spaniards is Haitianos, recognition for Haitians Historical leaders, shared Roman Catholic beliefs, Pentecostal Revival (Brazilians and other LA), etc.

Do any Island Jamaicans have any cultural sharings with Island Haitians that Latin Americans might not have besides being Black? Not that i've seen. in the US everything IS based on race.

In the Americas, your average educated Jamaican will not care/know that Jamaican Maroons were involved in the Haitian Revolution. The average educated Dominican can tell you all about what Boyer did to DR, how Trujillo hated all Blacks not just Haitians, how they lost Plateau Central, etc. Nowadays in Venezuela and Cuba you do hear about Petion and how Haiti aided Bolivar. Do WIs talk about Haiti for any other reason other than illegal immigration? Of course not. Haiti never left a mark in the WI. It did in LA.

You might hear a person from France, DR, Quebec, Cape Verde, Senegal, Ghana, Martinique or even Brazil listening to Zouk or Kompa. But never a Jamaican or Bajan. That's not their culture and they will let you know it. It ain't even close.

That's why saying Haitians are more interrelated with WIs doesn't make sense. In a language, song, religion and dance perspective we have more in common with nations in La Francophonie and LA. Especially the Caribbean and African ones.
Even the BLACK Latin Americans don't identify with Haitians. I mean get serious. Dominicans know lots about Haiti, and what they know makes them REJECT Haitians. Cubans in Miami despise Haitians, even more than they do other blacks, and banish them to live among black Americans.

So what's your point?


ZOUK. Very popular in the Eastern Caribbean in its hey day in the 80s and 90s. Indeed ZOUK is the only non English genre to have made it in this neck of the woods. It isn't that different from the soca of the 80s. Compas didn't make it because it has a slower beat.

Even in Trinidad the land of soca. No credible band could get away without knowing zouk. Kassav used to be majorly popular in their day. They don't need to play salsa.

Even bands in the very Afro Anglo Celtic creole St Kitts play Zouk.

As to Haitian history. Do you know CLR James? A TRINIDADIAN. He wrote a well known novel called the Black Jacobins, LONG AGO. All about Haiti and the aftermath of the Haitian revolution.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Black-Jaco.../dp/0679724672

Written in English so obviously his audience was English speaking Caribbean people. And indeed we even read it in SCHOOL!

Our Caribbean history, taught in schools in the English speaking Caribbean, placed MUCH on the Haitian Revolution. Why! Because we are the descendants of African slaves and this was the only successful rebellion and it also set the stage for the end of the slave trade and the emancipation.

BOUKMAN. Knew about him long ago. Jamaicans are proud to claim him. Christophe rumored to be from either St Kitts or Grenada, though no one knows.

All these details.

Unlike Dominicans this is told with great admiration for the success of people like Toussaint L'Ouverture. Dominicans see no merit in the Haitian Revolution. Slavery wasn't a major issue over there, but it brought in unwanted intrusion by Haitians.


Listen I know that you are extremely ashamed of the strong African influences within Haitians culture and seek to reduce this by claiming affinity to Mexicans. The problem is that neither they nor other Latins accept Haitians.

Just be happy to be an Afro French Creole, like Guadeloupe, DOMINICA, Martinique, Guyane, ST LUCIA, GRENADA, and TRINIDAD. You do know that there are Trinidadians who understand Haitian Kweyole.

And STOP embarrassing yourself by thinking that Haitians arrived in Cuba and the DR at the invitation of those peoples! Stop also displaying how ignorant you are of the diverse peoples of the English speaking Caribbean.

The NUMBER ONE discussion about Haiti is about the ONLY SUCCESSFUL SLAVE rebellion!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PDuOxwAS3I


Haiti I'm Sorry by David Rudder. BEFORE the earthquake. A man from a Caribbean island with strong AFRO FRENCH creole traditions.

Last edited by caribny; 07-29-2014 at 10:55 PM..
 
Old 07-29-2014, 11:14 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,934,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891 View Post
Why would DR include Haiti in CAFTA-DR? Haiti has very little to offer right now, not to mention DR doesn't need trade regulations to dominate the Haitian market. DR and Haiti have tiffs over border controls and trade habitually. That and very many other reasons make it logical that DR would keep trade with Haiti exactly the way it is. It's very imbalanced right now.

DR is trying to join Caricom anyway and the only reason it's been slowed down is because of relations on the island.

The Central Americans DO NOT WANT Haiti. Not any more than they want Belize. They don't fit. Its not just up to the DR. Its simple. They see DR as a Latin American nation. They don't see Haiti as one.


Haiti doesn't quite fit in any where as the other Afro French creole nations are an integral part of France.

Haiti has always played an important role in CARIFESTA and will be hosting the next one, subject to their ability to afford it. The DR never goes, and nobody misses them. Cuba is also very involved and hosted at least one, maybe two.

Hanker all you wish for Latin love but they aren't interested in reciprocating.
 
Old 07-29-2014, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Randolph, MA
508 posts, read 642,807 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Even the BLACK Latin Americans don't identify with Haitians. I mean get serious. Dominicans know lots about Haiti, and what they know makes them REJECT Haitians. Cubans in Miami despise Haitians, even more than they do other blacks, and banish them to live among black Americans.

So what's your point?


ZOUK. Very popular in the Eastern Caribbean in its hey day in the 80s and 90s. Indeed ZOUK is the only non English genre to have made it in this neck of the woods. It isn't that different from the soca of the 80s. Compas didn't make it because it has a slower beat.

Even in Trinidad the land of soca. No credible band could get away without knowing zouk. Kassav used to be majorly popular in their day. They don't need to play salsa.

Even bands in the very Afro Anglo Celtic creole St Kitts play Zouk.

As to Haitian history. Do you know CLR James? A TRINIDADIAN. He wrote a well known novel called the Black Jacobins, LONG AGO. All about Haiti and the aftermath of the Haitian revolution.

The Black Jacobins: Toussaint L'Ouverture and the San Domingo Revolution: C.L.R. James: 9780679724674: Amazon.com: Books

Written in English so obviously his audience was English speaking Caribbean people. And indeed we even read it in SCHOOL!

Our Caribbean history, taught in schools in the English speaking Caribbean, placed MUCH on the Haitian Revolution. Why! Because we are the descendants of African slaves and this was the only successful rebellion and it also set the stage for the end of the slave trade and the emancipation.

BOUKMAN. Knew about him long ago. Jamaicans are proud to claim him. Christophe rumored to be from either St Kitts or Grenada, though no one knows.

All these details.

Unlike Dominicans this is told with great admiration for the success of people like Toussaint L'Ouverture. Dominicans see no merit in the Haitian Revolution. Slavery wasn't a major issue over there, but it brought in unwanted intrusion by Haitians.


Listen I know that you are extremely ashamed of the strong African influences within Haitians culture and seek to reduce this by claiming affinity to Mexicans. The problem is that neither they nor other Latins accept Haitians.

Just be happy to be an Afro French Creole, like Guadeloupe, DOMINICA, Martinique, Guyane, ST LUCIA, GRENADA, and TRINIDAD. You do know that there are Trinidadians who understand Haitian Kweyole.

And STOP embarrassing yourself by thinking that Haitians arrived in Cuba and the DR at the invitation of those peoples! Stop also displaying how ignorant you are of the diverse peoples of the English speaking Caribbean.

The NUMBER ONE discussion about Haiti is about the ONLY SUCCESSFUL SLAVE rebellion!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PDuOxwAS3I



Haiti I'm Sorry by David Rudder. BEFORE the earthquake. A man from a Caribbean island with strong AFRO FRENCH creole traditions.
Yet you still miss the point. I'm done discussing with you why Haitians are no more culturally related to WI than to Cubans or Dominicans. It's not even a discussion in real life. You probably think that upwards of 20% Haitians practice VooDoo since you seem to think that's all Haitian culture is composed of.

Embarrassing myself? You have an agenda and it's laughable at best. Haitians have been moving around for two centuries around the Caribbean and the Americas buddy. Dominicans have reason to be upset and if the Cubans did too they'd be right. Jamaica would be a terrible nation for Haitian immigrants to go to in comparison. Even with the political climate in both nations. I never said Cubans and Dominicans were inviting Haitians but their nations and people are much more accommodating culturally than the West Indies.

It seems that you think Black culture is static and cannot be changed upon what an individual cultures influences are. Haitians look at Jamaicans as a people just like they look at Mexicans now that you mention it. Some things we like about the culture (Mexican food, Jamaican Reggae) but just another nation in the Americas. I expect the same in return. They probably have the same proportion of Haitian immigrants as well. Except they'd be more ignorant of Haitian culture since they don't even share race with us let alone history. We do share religion though but that social experiment has yet to be done.

Haitians wouldn't even bother to go to Jamaica in large numbers because believe me; Jamaicans are VERY anti-Haitian. And a poor Haitian from Okap might as well try to get to the Bahamas if they're gonna try to go somewhere, there's Haitians there.

As for you even bringing up Mexicans? Did anyone mention Mexicans in this thread? White Haitians are not related to White Mexicans so I don't know where you picked that up from. Are you under the impression that the stereotypical Latin American is Mexican or something?
 
Old 07-30-2014, 12:00 AM
 
Location: Randolph, MA
508 posts, read 642,807 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
The Central Americans DO NOT WANT Haiti. Not any more than they want Belize. They don't fit. Its not just up to the DR. Its simple. They see DR as a Latin American nation. They don't see Haiti as one.


Haiti doesn't quite fit in any where as the other Afro French creole nations are an integral part of France.

Haiti has always played an important role in CARIFESTA and will be hosting the next one, subject to their ability to afford it. The DR never goes, and nobody misses them. Cuba is also very involved and hosted at least one, maybe two.

Hanker all you wish for Latin love but they aren't interested in reciprocating.
Want Haiti for what? Is anywhere besides DR poised to really boom in that entire trade area? Please. DR holds that entire thing together.

If and when DR joins CARICOM (or if something else is created) it will be the economic muscle. Caricom is using the immigration thing as a shield. Plenty of Caricom nations deport Haitians all the time. No outrage about that. Give me a break. The WI leaders always have a huge bias against DR for god knows what reason but that's for another thread.
 
Old 07-30-2014, 01:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miserere View Post
Americans are Americans, everywhere.

In Spain, Americano, nobody says "estadounidense" except in the press.

In Cuba, "Americano",,,,everybody....in political jargon "yankee imperialista".....and there's the term "Yuma" that refers to any foreigner or cuban from abroad with hard currency.

Never heard "gringo" in those two countries.

When I visit Mexico, they call me "gŁero", "gŁerito".

The Gringo stuff sounds to Spaghetti Western, people might use it to mimmick Spaghetti-Westerns,
Gringo in portuguese is a slang that means foreigner.
 
Old 07-31-2014, 12:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891 View Post
Want Haiti for what? Is anywhere besides DR poised to really boom in that entire trade area? Please. DR holds that entire thing together.

If and when DR joins CARICOM (or if something else is created) it will be the economic muscle. Caricom is using the immigration thing as a shield. Plenty of Caricom nations deport Haitians all the time. No outrage about that. Give me a break. The WI leaders always have a huge bias against DR for god knows what reason but that's for another thread.
.

Dominicans voted MANY times for Balaguer, a man who considered Haitians to be black savages.

If that is what you want that is your prerogative. Maybe you agree with him. Obviously many Dominicans did at the time, and I am talking about a mere 20 years ago, as he whipped them up in a frenzy about Juan Pena. Google articles about anti Haitian attitudes among Dominicans and you will find legions of articles.



Now as to the DR. They have a free trade agreement with CARICOM. CARICOM's exports (excluding Haiti) to the DR are 3X its imports from that source. It really doesn't look like the DR "holds that entire thing together". .

Given that the core purpose of a society is to deliver a high quality of life to its peoples, the UN has the Human Development Index which measures exactly that. The DR only beats CARICOM's laggards, slightly ahead of Guyana and of course thoroughly beating Haiti. Even Jamaica, another CARICOM laggard slightly beats them, with most of the OECS, as well as T&T, Barbados and The Bahamas, way ahead.

And indeed severe poverty in the DR is easy to find, though Dominicans blame Haitians for that.

Ironically West Indians tend to view Dominicans similarly to how Dominicans view Haitians...cheap and exploitable labor.

Last edited by caribny; 07-31-2014 at 01:22 AM..
 
Old 07-31-2014, 12:37 AM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,934,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891 View Post
Yet you still miss the point. I'm done discussing with you why Haitians are no more culturally related to WI than to Cubans or Dominicans.?

Never said Haitians are culturally West Indian. I said that they aren't Latin American, nor do Latin Americans consider them to be such. While I happen to agree that Jamaicans would not be hospitable to large numbers of Haitians descending on their shores, are you suggesting that Dominicans warmly embrace Haitians? That Dominicans celebrate what they have in common with Haitians?

Tell you what. Just suggest to a Dominican that there are Haitians influences in Dominican culture (visible in the music and dance, and some argue even in their accent), the most amiable Dominican will go ballistic. Suggest that to a Puerto Rican and they will be confused.

http://video.nationalgeographic.com/...e=relatedvideo

http://erzulies.com/about-haitian-vo...story-beliefs/

http://articles.philly.com/1992-03-0...ic-roots-music



Others estimate that 50% of Haitians are actively involved in voodoo, with a large % of the remainder having some tangential relationship to it.

What is not up to debate is that voodoo in Haiti retains a role and characteristics more directly tied to ancient West African religions than any other similar African based religion in the Caribbean. Embedded in it is a deep belief in the spirits, the need to appease them, and the dire consequences if this isn't done.

Oh by the way all the Dominicans ran out of the room when they saw the first video link about voodoo and Haiti.




I SAID THAT Haitians fit into the Afro French creole space along with the French Antilles, Dominica, St Lucia, and to a lesser degree Grenada and Trinidad.

The issue with Haitians in the USA is about find compatible neighborhoods to live in. The least not incompatible are neighborhoods with black immigrants. True for Miami. True also for NYC.

In Miami Haitians were the MOST segregated from Hispanics (dissimilarity index of 78) followed by whites (74) and were more integrated with African Americans (58) and West Indians (53). Hispanic blacks had a 38 dissimilarity index with non black Hispanics.

So you cannot blame race for the segregation of Haitians from Hispanics and indeed Haitians were MORE segregated from Hispanics than were Jamaicans (67).

Last edited by caribny; 07-31-2014 at 01:00 AM..
 
Old 07-31-2014, 07:01 PM
 
Location: West of Louisiana, East of New Mexico
2,536 posts, read 2,028,808 times
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The "white" category has always made room for others. Let's not forget that Irish people weren't even considered white at the time of the Civil War. Italians and Greeks are white-ish depending on where you live. Mexicans that can pass for white will become white, whether they want to or not.
 
Old 08-01-2014, 06:32 PM
 
695 posts, read 736,990 times
Reputation: 922
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
You are totally confusing yourself.

Its that simple. Miami is a Latin controlled city and Latinos don't want Haitians around them. They isolate Haitians as much as whites do. Non Hispanic whites don't live around Hispanics, except in the most affluent communities, so the culprit isn't US style racism.

Puerto Ricans and Dominicans by and large don't live around whites in NYC, except in gentrifying neighborhoods. So what prevents Haitians from living among them? If Haitians feel an affinity to them why do they not live with them? And please note that most NYC neighborhoods with Puerto Ricans and Dominican populations also have high AFRICAN AMERICAN populations.

Dominicans are LESS segregated from African Americans in NYC than they are from Haitians.

If there were more Spaniards in NYC than Irish then the Italians would marry them, so that example is quite twisted.

Haitians are an Afro French CREOLE group. Were there large communities of French Antilleans I could well imagine that Haitians would live among them. Their relationship would likely be akin to the Puerto Rican/DR one. Fraught with tensions, but also brought together by cultural commonality. But there are no French Antillean communities in NYC so Haitians chose the least bad choice, other non Hispanic black immigrants.
You keep saying that Haitians are Creoles, etc but that statement isn't really relevant when you consider that nearly all Latin American and Caribbean nations are Creole nations culturally.

As for where Haitians choose to live, again this is far more reflective of the racial politics of the US than it is of Latin America. America is largely segregated by race and Haitians are overwhelmingly Black, hence why Haitians live with Black immigrants. Your argument about Caribbean Hispanics living with Black Americans is irrelevant; following your logic then the reason why Dominicans and Puerto Ricans live with African Americans is because they have more in common with them than with West Indians, Central and South Americans who literally live next door to them.

Finally, if you really think that Haitians consciously choose West Indians over Caribbean Latinos out of some sense of kinship, then how do you explain the systematic rejection of Haitians by West Indians and the relatively low rates of interethnic relationships between them. I'm the product of one of these relationships and between 1st generation Haitian and West Indian immigrants they are exceedingly rare- if anything I know personally far far more Haitian-Latino couples than I do Haitian-West Indian ones. Literally until they reach Brooklyn, Boston and Miami, Anglophone West Indians are absolutely not on the radar of the average Haitian in any way, shape or form. Hell, Guadeloupe and Martinique are BARELY on the radar of the average Haitian and they are much more in sync with the Anglophone Caribbean than Haitian people are. Most Haitians born in Haiti do not patronise West Indian food shops, don't listen to Reggae, Dancehall or Soca, don't go to our fetes or otherwise interact with West Indian people aside from living in the same neighbourhood and it's only really the 2nd and 3rd generation that does, and their parents are usually very quick to point out that they aren't proper Haitians.
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