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Old 05-30-2014, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Caribbean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
Jamaica, the Bahamas, St Kitts & Nevis, Antigua & Barbuda, Dominica, St Lucia, Barbados & Grenada are all in excess of 80% Black, and together make up the overwhelming majority of the English-speaking Caribbean. The countries you pointed out are exceptions, not the rule, and furthermore only T&T has a large population out of all of them. The Caymans are tiny, St. Martin is tiny (and ironically overrun with Haitians anyway lol) and St Vincent doesn't even have an international airport.
Thank you for confirming that Caribbean islands differ. I named four nations which acknowledged all have populations different from Haiti. Let's also not forget the ABC islands. So make that 7, almost as many as you listed above.

Your statement should have said that Haiti is not different from MANY other Caribbean islands, language aside.

 
Old 05-30-2014, 08:55 PM
 
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[quote=MassNative2891;34995874]Although Haitians (as a group) are genetically mostly African; you’ll hear many families citing ancestry from S.D., Jamaica, France, Cuba, and Martinique (examples). To say Haiti is demographically closer to ‘Sub-Saharan’ African countries is asinine. [quote]

We can debate about how Sub Saharan African Haiti is, but what is not beyond debate is that its genetically the most "African" nation in the Americas, even when compared to islands like Jamaica.


1. When Haiti had its revolution the bulk of the slaves were recently brought from Africa. They would obviously be of 100% African descent.

2. Virtually all of the French whites, and a not insignificant % of the mulattos left. This is unlike Jamaica where the ongoing presence of whites provided additional opportunities for mixing.

3. Until relatively recently most Haitians lived in isolated rural communities, and so there would have been little interaction with people from other areas.

4. Much of the mulatto population were quite elite and held themselves aloof from the rest of the population. Much of the immigrant population don't socialize with the masses.

Bottom line is while Haiti does have a skin color continuum typical of the Caribbean, it has a much larger group of people who are pure African. Certainly when compared to countries like Guadeloupe.
 
Old 05-30-2014, 09:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
Thanks for sharing. It amazes me that there are people still surprised to see non-African descended people in Haiti.



Not so. Please remember that the rest of the Caribbean is not necessarily split between "black/white."

Cayman Islands - mixed 40%, white 20%, black 20%, expatriates of various ethnic groups 20%

St. Martin - Creole (mulatto), black, Guadeloupe Mestizo (French-East Asia), white, East Indian

Trinidad & Tobago - East Indian 35.4%, African 34.2%, mixed - other 15.3%, mixed African/East Indian 7.7%, other 1.3%, unspecified 6.2%

St. Vincent & the Grenadines - black 66%, mixed 19%, East Indian 6%, European 4%, Carib Amerindian 2%, other 3%

St Maarten/Martin one can hardly say as the bulk of the people who live there are a floating group of people who come to make money and leave. This includes migrants from other parts of the Caribbean, Haiti, DR, Jamaica, Dominica and Guyana, in that order. Then there are large numbers of white French metropoles on the French side, and Indians dominating the duty free business on the Dutch side, together with Americans who are quite active in tourism related businesses. And of course people from Curacao, and Guadeloupe. One feels as if SXM is the downtown where every one comes to work, going "home" when they have made enough cash.

The indigenous St Maarteners are black (the whites and mixed left in the 19th century when the island's economy collapsed, leaving a subsistence population of salt gatherers and fishermen), but then they are only 15% of the population. The rest include people from every where in the world, including India and China.

Guadeloupe is about 80% black, 10% Indian, and the rest a divide of white, Amerindian and mixtures of all of the above. Martinique has more whites and mixed then Guadeloupe, and a slightly smaller Indian population.

One of the problems with tabulating populations of black vs mixed is that there is no defined criteria which is used to assign people to each group. So the StV census shows black at 77% in 1991, declining to 73% in 2001. The mixed was 17% in 1991, increasing to 20% in 2001. Coincidentally the black and mixed population was 94% in 1991, and 93% in 2001. The reality is that there is a group who float between self identifying as "black" and as "mixed". I don't think in an island like St V there is much social distinctions between "black" and :mixed", unlike Haiti and Jamaica where the old mulatto families are very insistent that they are not black.

The thing is that in most of the majority black societies race, and even skin color is of declining significance as blacks now dominate all, except for the highest levels of the business sectors. So I really don't think that too many people dwell too much on whether they are "black" or "mixed".

Guyana, Trinidad, Suriname, French Guyane and Belize are of course very different and hugely diverse.
 
Old 05-31-2014, 04:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
Thank you for confirming that Caribbean islands differ. I named four nations which acknowledged all have populations different from Haiti. Let's also not forget the ABC islands. So make that 7, almost as many as you listed above.

Your statement should have said that Haiti is not different from MANY other Caribbean islands, language aside.
That's EXACTLY what I said though. re-read my post lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post

We can debate about how Sub Saharan African Haiti is, but what is not beyond debate is that its genetically the most "African" nation in the Americas, even when compared to islands like Jamaica.


1. When Haiti had its revolution the bulk of the slaves were recently brought from Africa. They would obviously be of 100% African descent.

2. Virtually all of the French whites, and a not insignificant % of the mulattos left. This is unlike Jamaica where the ongoing presence of whites provided additional opportunities for mixing.

3. Until relatively recently most Haitians lived in isolated rural communities, and so there would have been little interaction with people from other areas.

4. Much of the mulatto population were quite elite and held themselves aloof from the rest of the population. Much of the immigrant population don't socialize with the masses.

Bottom line is while Haiti does have a skin color continuum typical of the Caribbean, it has a much larger group of people who are pure African. Certainly when compared to countries like Guadeloupe.
I don't know about that last line. I agree with the rest, but I dunno if I can say that proportionately the % of Haitians that are pure African is that much higher than places like SKN, Dominica or Antigua.
 
Old 05-31-2014, 05:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
That's EXACTLY what I said though. re-read my post lol



I don't know about that last line. I agree with the rest, but I dunno if I can say that proportionately the % of Haitians that are pure African is that much higher than places like SKN, Dominica or Antigua.

Dominicans are more mixed than Kittitians, and I suspect Antiguans are the "purest" of the 3 islands that you mention, so even here local conditions differ.

I have my opinions. I suspect that the brown people left Antigua a while back leaving a very black population. In St K ,where the browns were quite elite, many kept their distance from blacks, except for some out of wedlock dalliances. I suspect that Dominica didn't have as well developed a plantation system as did St K, and so less rigid social structure, so more mixing between the blacks and the browns.


HAITI.

In Haiti until the last generation or two, most people lived isolated in rural areas with very poor transportation links. Given that these people were isolated since slavery ended there would have been limited opportunity for them to interact with the more mixed urban folk.

Not so in places where there was more local mobility of people.

So given the above there will be more people who are PURE African, compared to other parts of the Caribbean where they will be PREDOMINANTLY African. Remember that Haiti had a HUGE population of people BORN in Africa when slavery there ended.
 
Old 06-01-2014, 11:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Dominicans are more mixed than Kittitians, and I suspect Antiguans are the "purest" of the 3 islands that you mention, so even here local conditions differ.

I have my opinions. I suspect that the brown people left Antigua a while back leaving a very black population. In St K ,where the browns were quite elite, many kept their distance from blacks, except for some out of wedlock dalliances. I suspect that Dominica didn't have as well developed a plantation system as did St K, and so less rigid social structure, so more mixing between the blacks and the browns.


HAITI.

In Haiti until the last generation or two, most people lived isolated in rural areas with very poor transportation links. Given that these people were isolated since slavery ended there would have been limited opportunity for them to interact with the more mixed urban folk.

Not so in places where there was more local mobility of people.

So given the above there will be more people who are PURE African, compared to other parts of the Caribbean where they will be PREDOMINANTLY African. Remember that Haiti had a HUGE population of people BORN in Africa when slavery there ended.
I think you underestimate the mobility of people within Haiti. Yes, transportation was difficult but Haiti has had a history of migration between cities and between Cuba and the Dominican Republic since the turn of the 20th century, so people weren't quite as isolated as you make it seem. Also, while mixed-race people tended to keep away from Black socially and marry amongst themselves, concubinage and prostitution were still common and children were born out of those unions quite frequently, as were many children born from clandestine unions with occupying American marines & merchants throughout the early 20th century.

With that said, Haiti probably IS proportion-wise the most African nation in the Caribbean, but that's not to say that the same phenomena which contributed to ethnic diversity in other Caribbean nations didn't happen there as well, just on a smaller scale.
 
Old 06-01-2014, 12:06 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,949,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
I
With that said, Haiti probably IS proportion-wise the most African nation in the Caribbean, but that's not to say that the same phenomena which contributed to ethnic diversity in other Caribbean nations didn't happen there as well, just on a smaller scale.

And that is what I said. And as a result Haiti has more people who are 100% vs. an island like St Kitts where most will be in that 85-90% range.

I can cite Guyana where there are certain Afro Guyanese villages where people are not only 100% African, but might even be mainly of particular ethnic groups. This compared with Georgetown which is more diverse.

In these villages, like Ithaca in West Coast Berbice, originally settlement was by people from particular ethnic African groups (I cant remember which but it might be Congo in the case of Ithaca). There is limited mixture with the nearby East Indians. So the villagers remained "purer" than in other places. There are one or two villages where Igbo was spoken up to the 1950s because the original settlers were Igbo, which encouraged many subsequent arrivals of Igbo background.
 
Old 06-01-2014, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Heartland Florida
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I always wondered, why are predominantly black islands like Haiti so poor and undesirable while Bermuda is a place favored by the rich?
 
Old 06-01-2014, 02:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallrick View Post
I always wondered, why are predominantly black islands like Haiti so poor and undesirable while Bermuda is a place favored by the rich?
You do realise Bermuda is also majority Black as well? As is the Bahamas, Barbados, the Virgin Islands, etc?

If anything, the countries with the highest GDP per capita in the Western Hemisphere after the US and Canada are mostly Black Caribbean countries.
 
Old 06-01-2014, 02:54 PM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 23 days ago)
 
48,303 posts, read 45,597,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
You do realise Bermuda is also majority Black as well? As is the Bahamas, Barbados, the Virgin Islands, etc?

If anything, the countries with the highest GDP per capita in the Western Hemisphere after the US and Canada are mostly Black Caribbean countries.
Barbados is another place to consider as well.
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