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Old 08-12-2012, 11:34 AM
 
25,059 posts, read 23,180,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I thought that was obvious. I mean that the US is not a good example to follow. I would go so far as to tell Brazil to look at the US, how they do things there, and then do exactly the opposite
What do we do wrong that other nations do right? Which countries should Brazil follow, then? IMO, Brazil needs to fix its culture of corruption. Brazil should be its own country, but at least try to emulate the US on the ways that allowed us to prosper.
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Old 08-12-2012, 12:09 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,424 posts, read 19,318,864 times
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Oh, I totally disagree there. US wealth is based on greed, un-Latin priorities, huge socioeconomic gaps, global bullying and exploitation, etc.
Not a good example to follow, even the Scandinavian or Germanic way is preferable in my view, although I do not exactly like it. But should Brazil be unable to develop its own way, Scandinavia or Germany/Netherlands are way better examples to follow in my view. But a third, Brazilian way would be the best solution. Brazil is so unique, it doesn't have to copy or emulate anyone or anything.
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Old 08-12-2012, 12:26 PM
 
25,059 posts, read 23,180,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Oh, I totally disagree there. US wealth is based on greed, un-Latin priorities, huge socioeconomic gaps, global bullying and exploitation, etc.
Not a good example to follow, even the Scandinavian or Germanic way is preferable in my view, although I do not exactly like it. But should Brazil be unable to develop its own way, Scandinavia or Germany/Netherlands are way better examples to follow in my view. But a third, Brazilian way would be the best solution. Brazil is so unique, it doesn't have to copy or emulate anyone or anything.
All wealth is greed when you boil it down to basics. There is no such thing as a non-greedy society. The DDR was also a greedy society, greedy for power. I would know. I'm related to 30 first-hand witnesses

What are un-Latin priorities? I'm Latin American, and my priorities are much the same as every other American. I want to be able to feed myself, clothe myself, provide shelter for myself, live in a safe, low crime area with good schools all the while trusting in God to help me achieve the former. Latin America has way worse socioeconomic gaps than the U.S. will ever have.

What global bullying does the US do without the participation of NATO nations and the UN? You seem to be under the impression, like so many Canadians on this forum, that only the US is inside these countries fighting others. You seem to forget that virtually every EEA nation has troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. Plus, let's not forget the UN and NATO backed invasions of Libya. Yes, even that much vaunted peace loving nation of Canada has troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. So, I guess you are right there is global bullying going on with the US, Canada, and EU in on it, though you seem to be implicating the US as the sole player in this. The US only does global exploitation? What about China exploiting Africa for its own ends? You think China is in Africa to spread the good deeds of communism and workers of the world unite? Nay, they are furthering their own economic interests in the region. The US exploits its workers FAR less than China, and even Latin America.

Most of the things you talk about are not unique to the US. Maybe you should look at things from a broader world perspective instead of the narrow-minded socialist European perspective and realize that the US is a far better and fairer place than most countries around the world. There's a reason why 12+ million illegal immigrants are living here. They're not living here to be exploited and poor just for fun
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Old 08-12-2012, 01:27 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,424 posts, read 19,318,864 times
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Socialist European perspective? After such as stupid remark I should not even answer you, but then again, Americans...

Sure, there are huge socioeconomic gaps in Brazil as well, but they are closing the gap, while in the US it is widening, the tendency is opposed. And in the US it is not widening because there is not enough wealth, but because of priorities and mentality. In Brazil it is narrowing because of progressive policies to do so, something frowned upon in the US and called social engineering or worse.

Usually other countries only send troops because they are dragged into it by the US. That is why I am in favor of doing away with NATO, let the US do their mess completely at their own expense. Behind the scenes the US has long become the enemy of its official allies, actually I think the US has no friends and allies left.

I live in a Latin country, life is completely different here from the US and also from, say, Germany, where I grew up.

While there is a certain amount of greed in every society, it varies quite a lot from culture to culture. People are by far not the same wherever you go. There are huge differences and I prefer the people and societies I consider better at heart.
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:30 PM
 
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The world in the 21st century will prbably more diverse in terms of super powers.
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:47 PM
 
Location: M I N N E S O T A
14,800 posts, read 17,721,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Socialist European perspective? After such as stupid remark I should not even answer you, but then again, Americans...
Lol, here we ago again....
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Old 08-12-2012, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Boston, MA
11,747 posts, read 8,310,386 times
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The US will be the US of the 21st century. Twelve years in and we are still triple the size of the closest competitor. The gap has been shrinking but that shrinking is slowing.

Btw, Brazil's GDP is in the 2.0 increase range, hardly setting the world afire.

Last edited by Mr. Joshua; 08-12-2012 at 04:46 PM..
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Old 08-12-2012, 04:41 PM
 
17,297 posts, read 25,706,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Socialist European perspective? After such as stupid remark I should not even answer you, but then again, Americans...

Sure, there are huge socioeconomic gaps in Brazil as well, but they are closing the gap, while in the US it is widening, the tendency is opposed. And in the US it is not widening because there is not enough wealth, but because of priorities and mentality. In Brazil it is narrowing because of progressive policies to do so, something frowned upon in the US and called social engineering or worse.

Usually other countries only send troops because they are dragged into it by the US. That is why I am in favor of doing away with NATO, let the US do their mess completely at their own expense. Behind the scenes the US has long become the enemy of its official allies, actually I think the US has no friends and allies left.

I live in a Latin country, life is completely different here from the US and also from, say, Germany, where I grew up.

While there is a certain amount of greed in every society, it varies quite a lot from culture to culture. People are by far not the same wherever you go. There are huge differences and I prefer the people and societies I consider better at heart.

Oh Please. "Latin priorities" simply don't create successful modern economies, and no longer dominate on the world cultural, science or innovation stages. Look at how the nations of Europe with "Latin priorities" (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain) are faring these days - hands out, looking for everyone else to work and pay for their unwillingness to cut back as necessary. Portugal is a great place to live NOW, but it was the poorest country in western Europe until the Euro participation.... and Spain wasn't far behind. The Latin European countries are GREAT places to live and visit... but let's not pretend their social apparatus ISN'T held up at least partially by other "meaner" places willing to do a lot of the dirty work while everyone else is on siesta.

"Latin priorities" of Brazil are also a main reason why it has been world famous for colorism, exploitation and degradation of natural resources until only very recently, and a wealth gap of immense proportions... IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! If these priorities were soooo great, Brazil wouldn't BE an "emerging" market. They'd have EMERGED decades ago. One can see the relative success of the former big meanie greedy Anglo colonies vs. those of Latin extraction (Spanish and Portuguese).... and half my side are recent immigrants FROM Portugal.... so I say this rather embarrassed. In America, I decry the wealth gap, and think the rich should pay more, but let's be honest, in America the "wealth gap" tends to be, "I only have one car instead of three," or "My flat screen TV is not as big as your home theater." Compare to "I have no running water in my favela, while you take shopping trips to New York."

So please, spare us the "Brazil has its heart in the right place" nonsense. Brazil is forging its identity as a fledgling regional power. We don't know what they will do when they actually GET power, anymore than you can truly say what you would do if you won the lottery and suddenly had a 100 million dollars. You might say you'd donate it all too charity now... but with the cash in your hand, we can't be so certain.

It's a fair bet that Brazil, like China, will end up on everyone's sH** list like America, Great Britain, Germany, etc. once they actually accumulate enough power - hard and soft - to actually make an impact in the world and in their region. Neither Brazil nor China, nor any other little nation of 5 million get points today for "not historically disturbing their neighbors"... when they lack the ability to do so even if they tried. For someone who holds himself out to be so worldly, you really come across so very naive sometimes, never missing an opportunity to critique "Americans" for the same behaviors, assumptions and uneducated points of view that you claim THEY have!
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:46 PM
 
177 posts, read 235,960 times
Reputation: 148
Latin America in general sounds like they have a pretty positive future.
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:04 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,424 posts, read 19,318,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Oh Please. "Latin priorities" simply don't create successful modern economies, and no longer dominate on the world cultural, science or innovation stages. Look at how the nations of Europe with "Latin priorities" (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain) are faring these days - hands out, looking for everyone else to work and pay for their unwillingness to cut back as necessary. Portugal is a great place to live NOW, but it was the poorest country in western Europe until the Euro participation.... and Spain wasn't far behind. The Latin European countries are GREAT places to live and visit... but let's not pretend their social apparatus ISN'T held up at least partially by other "meaner" places willing to do a lot of the dirty work while everyone else is on siesta.

"Latin priorities" of Brazil are also a main reason why it has been world famous for colorism, exploitation and degradation of natural resources until only very recently, and a wealth gap of immense proportions... IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! If these priorities were soooo great, Brazil wouldn't BE an "emerging" market. They'd have EMERGED decades ago. One can see the relative success of the former big meanie greedy Anglo colonies vs. those of Latin extraction (Spanish and Portuguese).... and half my side are recent immigrants FROM Portugal.... so I say this rather embarrassed. In America, I decry the wealth gap, and think the rich should pay more, but let's be honest, in America the "wealth gap" tends to be, "I only have one car instead of three," or "My flat screen TV is not as big as your home theater." Compare to "I have no running water in my favela, while you take shopping trips to New York."

So please, spare us the "Brazil has its heart in the right place" nonsense. Brazil is forging its identity as a fledgling regional power. We don't know what they will do when they actually GET power, anymore than you can truly say what you would do if you won the lottery and suddenly had a 100 million dollars. You might say you'd donate it all too charity now... but with the cash in your hand, we can't be so certain.

It's a fair bet that Brazil, like China, will end up on everyone's sH** list like America, Great Britain, Germany, etc. once they actually accumulate enough power - hard and soft - to actually make an impact in the world and in their region. Neither Brazil nor China, nor any other little nation of 5 million get points today for "not historically disturbing their neighbors"... when they lack the ability to do so even if they tried. For someone who holds himself out to be so worldly, you really come across so very naive sometimes, never missing an opportunity to critique "Americans" for the same behaviors, assumptions and uneducated points of view that you claim THEY have!
The sesta makes sense in countries where the sun boils down around noon, it is a traditional thing dating back to the times when many people were working outside. And although we still have the sesta here today, people actually work more than in Germany and other Northern places. In Germany they have a one-hour lunch break and most go home between 5 and 6pm. Here they have a one to two-hour lunch break and most go home at 7pm. And unlike in Germany many people work on Saturdays as well.

What is different is that people in most Latin places work to live, whereas with the US and some other countries I get the impression that it is the other way round. We don't have that exaggerated professional and economic ambition that so many Americans have, and I think is good that way.

As far as Portugal, it is politics and politicians that are destroying this country, not the people and their priorities and way of working. Indeed, many Portuguese and Spaniards are emigrating these days, mostly to other EU countries and Africa, but most of them only think of it as a short-term solution and want to move back as soon as possible.

The reason Brazil still is an emerging country is its history, not its priorities. They used to have slavery and all the mess associated with it, like a few rich people owning most of the land instead of the farmers working the land. They still have to implement a major land reform, but that won't be easy, lots of paramilitary gun nuts there, too.

One of the best places in all of Latin America is Uruguay. They don't have poverty like in Brazil, still their way of life is completely different from the American way of life. Just go there and stay for a while, you will notice the difference.

Exactly, that is one reason I don't want Brazil to become like the US. I want Brazil to mind its own business and stay out of the international mess that the US and Europe keep creating. I don't want it to become a superpower, it would automatically mean having lots of enemies, and rightly so. That in turn would force it to spend a lot of money on military stuff, money that is badly needed elsewhere.

Indeed, despite some nice people I can't stand the US as a whole, as a country, I think along with Iran, North Korea and the like it is one of the worst country on the planet currently, in a much more subtle way, though, like cancer.
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