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Old 06-17-2012, 11:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
Most all of the Carribbean has an enormous African influence.

Cuba doesn't stand out as being 'more African' than the rest of the area, to me.


Tiger

For Spain, Cuba was "la siempre fiel isla de Cuba", the last important Spanish colony in America. Cuba remained being Spanish almost a century more than LatAm countries. For Spain, Cuba was just part of their country. During the war against independentists and later the Americans, Spain said "lucharemos hasta el último hombre y hasta la última peseta".

Spain tried to make a Spanish province out of Cuba during centuries, Cuba never become a Spanish province because slaves were not allowed in Spanish provinces and slavery ended in 1884. The island received large amount of settlers and soldiers. For example, Castro's father was an Spanish soldier and José Martí, the founder of Cuban nationalism, was the son of a Spanish police.

In 1898, Americans occupied the country until 1911, but preserved Spanish properties. Americans closed bullfight rings, helped to sanitize the island to avoid malary and allowed the entry of Spanish immigrants (not the case or PR), many of which were "returnee" Spanish soldiers that fought against independentists (Castro's father, for example). More than a million immigrants. They also left the "Platt Amendment" that gave rise to antiamericanism until it was reppealed in 1932.

So the history of the island and Cubans does not have much in common LatAm, but more with US, Spain and USSR and other communist countries. For example, Cuba has a long standing relationship with Viet Nam, Irak (before invasion), North Korea and many African countries in which Cuba intervened. The country has lost a lot of its unique culture and crazed utopias, but still is a unique country with no point of contact with their neighbours (a great luck!!).

The only thing quite aggravating for the island are Canadian tourists!!! They are a pest.

Last edited by cojoncillo; 06-17-2012 at 11:59 AM..

 
Old 06-18-2012, 04:22 AM
 
Location: Macao
15,945 posts, read 36,159,509 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cojoncillo View Post
The only thing quite aggravating for the island are Canadian tourists!!! They are a pest.
I suppose they would be the #1 tourist....probably.

Well, seems like there would be plenty of Europeans? Or are they just culturally more aware or better in some way as tourists?
 
Old 06-18-2012, 09:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
What makes Cadiz not a typical european city? Just curious...
Her history and geographical position.

Geographically, was the nearest European port to Africa, and this location has made have had a different influence than the rest of Europe.

Founded by the Phoenicians. It's one of the oldest european cities, and the most acient city still standing in Western Europe. Was not founded by europeans and previous to the Roman Empire, so didn't have the roman/latin city structure common in Wetern Europe.
The city had an important role in the war between Carthage and Rome. Was the base of operations for Hannibal's conquest of southern Iberia and fight against the Romans.
Also had an important role in the Moorish conquest of Spain.
That made the city more related and influenced by North Africa than to Europe.

And thanks to her location also had an important role in the spanish conquest of America.
The city have an style similar to this colonial spanish cities in America, like La Habana and San Juan de Puerto Rico,
 
Old 06-18-2012, 09:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
I suppose they would be the #1 tourist....probably.

Well, seems like there would be plenty of Europeans? Or are they just culturally more aware or better in some way as tourists?

The worse tourist of them all in Cuba are Latins. You find plenty of very ugly Mexicans going after white girls, disgusting pseudomissing Argentinians dressed as el "Che Guevara", "Internationalistic students" studying medicine for free at the LatAm Medical School. Those students are very ugly things extracted from the Andes or some jungle. I can't imagine what kind of doctors they become apart from head shrinkers, Chavez pays their fare.

But the worse, worse, worse of them all are Venezuelans receiving medical treatments (Chavez pays the bills). They bring infectious diseases and all the hotels and "internationalistic centres" that shelter them must close after they leave for decontamination. They bring diseases long gone from the island.

After that, Canadians are by far the worse tourists Cuba receive, they are scroungy, petty and they are very "pro-Castro" and "antiamerican" and Cubans, even communist ones, are proamericans. They are quite envious. When they take a "all-inclusive" resort, they swarm all buffets and behave like scum. Not even Cuban, that recently went through a famine, behave like that.

The most popular tourists in Cuba are Italians, they have a similar character to Cuban populace. North Europeans are also very popular and love the place and there's an ever growing presence of Russians, some know Cuban very well. Russians never were popular during the USSR, but now they come as big spenders and are a pain in the ass for governmental authorities because they are always saying "ahhh, we did things the same way, but not the right way...", etc.

Spaniards are "gallegos" and there's still a lingering memory going to the times when "gallegos" came as immigrants, so "gallegos" are not viewed as "Europeans" but as "gallegos", not viewed as foreign enough.
 
Old 06-18-2012, 10:35 AM
 
546 posts, read 1,220,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chascarrillo View Post
Her history and geographical position.

Geographically, was the nearest European port to Africa, and this location has made have had a different influence than the rest of Europe.

Founded by the Phoenicians. It's one of the oldest european cities, and the most acient city still standing in Western Europe. Was not founded by europeans and previous to the Roman Empire, so didn't have the roman/latin city structure common in Wetern Europe.
The city had an important role in the war between Carthage and Rome. Was the base of operations for Hannibal's conquest of southern Iberia and fight against the Romans.
Also had an important role in the Moorish conquest of Spain.
That made the city more related and influenced by North Africa than to Europe.

And thanks to her location also had an important role in the spanish conquest of America.
The city have an style similar to this colonial spanish cities in America, like La Habana and San Juan de Puerto Rico,


The only section of Havana that reminds of Cadiz is the "Malecón". I believe that most of the malecón was constructed during the past century. The similarity between Havana, Cadiz, A Coruña, Barcelona and parts of Madrid is mostly due to the work carried out by the architects of Carlos III (XVIII Century). There are also many buildings constructed by slavetraders and "indianos" imitating the style of Havana (the manzana d'en Xifré in Barcelona and the areas around "las tiendas del puerto", parts of la Coruña and cities all around Northen Spain, etc).

The area called Centro Habana is entirely different since it is mostly new, less than 200 years, reminds me of parts of Barcelona and Coruña.

The Vedado is typically Cuban, there's nothing like that in Spain since Vedado is a "car or cart centered" built more than a century ago. Urban planning is more distinctly American...and then Miramar, there's nothing like Miramar in Spain. Miramar was a luxurious community (private community or reparto), and at that time there were no car-centric private communities in Spain (those type of communities started 20 or 30 years later and were not comparable).

Carlos III was all important in the design of the XVIIIth Century Havana, Madrid and Cadiz. The "Paseo Carlos III" is very important in Havana. Havana Vieja (the areas refurbished) remind me of La Coruña, Valladolid and Seville. Carlos III built "La Cabaña", the largest fortification in America and all buildings adjoining the harbour.

Havana and Cadiz were heavely fortified cities since both cities were the most important for the American trade, and Casa de Contratación de Cádiz was charged with the traffic. The fortifications and building were built by Felipe II and Carlos III were constructed by the same Italian engineers. There's also certain similarity with Naples, Carlos III was from Naples and most architects were from there.

Last edited by cojoncillo; 06-18-2012 at 10:45 AM..
 
Old 08-16-2012, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Tampa, Florida
74 posts, read 103,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cojoncillo View Post
Saying that Havana is a very European city is repeating the same letany than Argentinians.
Havana was a very Spanish city until 1959 (communist revolution) and was a REAL Spanish city until 1898. 30 percent of its population in 1959 was born in Spain. They city also sported a Chinatown, a Jewish neighbourhood and a Lebanese neighbourhood, they all fled to Miami.
Though most of the white population of Havana fled, the city still retains a very Spanish character.
The city of Havana was modeled by the Italian architects of Charles III, so it has a flair very resemblant to Madrid and Cadiz.
Other sections of the city are more American or have a French or Italian style, so you have gated communities frozen in times now inhabitted by squatters, plush neighbourhoods that now serve to lodge embassies, etc.
Havana resembles a real Spanish/French city whose white inhabitants deserted 50 years ago, something like Argel, Casablanca or Tetuan.
The city does not have anything to do with any "Latin" city, in fact, Cubans abhor Latins.
Havana is just one of those places lost in time.
White people still live in Cuba. They're at least a third of the population. Besides, I know a lot of Afro-Cubans who live in the United States. (I heard West Indians hate when people assume everyone in the island chain is black - I saw quite a few white people in the Dominican Republic. And they were no different than black/mulatto Dominicans except for race. And there are a lot of Indians and Chinese on certain islands.)
 
Old 08-17-2012, 08:44 AM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 15 days ago)
 
5,183 posts, read 8,027,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
It's interesting that some perceive 'most european' to imply the most european-looking people.

When people refer to a 'city' looking european, they generally refer to the architecture, and bones of the city.
I think there are two reasons for this: (1) Americans are very race-conscious and as such, see race before anything else (unlike most people from the rest of the world) and (2) This website is overwhelmingly visited by Americans and a good number of them are race-conscious (as can be seen in the above-than-average race-related threads all over the place here, its quite odd and sad, when you think about it).

However, I immediately thought of the city's architecture and overall style when you said 'most european.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer
In South America, I often hear of cities like Buenos Aires, Cartagena, or Montevideo as looking European. In the Carribbean, it generally seems to be Havana. As opposed to somewhere like Santo Domingo.

I don't know why I haven't heard of Santo Domingo being 'european-like', but it's generally not something I hear in its regards. Havana seems to be one I hear of most in that kind of way.
Lets see why people say that...

Havana







----------------------------------

Montevideo







------------------------------

Santo Domingo






 
Old 08-17-2012, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
5,515 posts, read 17,679,692 times
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I would think Santo Domingo has the most European-style architectual, no? Being that it's the oldest European settled city in the western hemisphere. Unless it was burned down, which never happened to my knowledge.

 
Old 08-17-2012, 01:10 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
271 posts, read 459,889 times
Reputation: 267
From Havana, I got a vibe that was part African, part European, yet completely unique from anything I've experienced. There is much more of a US influence than you'd expect, particularly when it comes to consumer goods. They want American everything.

And it's not communism that crumbled them- the cash economy is loud, large, and utilized by everyone. It was the embargo. They can't even tap into the cables that run under the Strait of Florida to get high-speed internet, so they have to use an Italian satellite service. I'm no expert on automation, but that has definitely held the country back. Same with having to import building materials from Europe, issues getting remittance from family members, etc. It's going to take hundreds of years to rebuild Havana, while NYC can blow up the LES and rebuild it in two decades. But it's the strangest thing... they don't hate America for that and are obsessed with the country.

Last edited by illcosby; 08-17-2012 at 01:28 PM..
 
Old 08-17-2012, 01:25 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
271 posts, read 459,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
I suppose they would be the #1 tourist....probably.

Well, seems like there would be plenty of Europeans? Or are they just culturally more aware or better in some way as tourists?
Cuba's a hotspot for Canadians to visit because it's dirt cheap... getting a two star aparthotel with breakfast included for a week, plus roundtrip flight, is often cheaper than a simple roundtrip flight from Canada to the US, nevermind the hotel or breakfast. Seriously, I paid $425 for flights, hotel, breakfast in Havana. I've spent that much just on a roundtrip ticket to NYC during an airline blowout sale.

I would imagine that a lot of Canadians who wouldn't normally be able to afford travel, especially to places considered tropical, waaaay out there, or exotic, come to Cuba... I've heard that my fellow Canadians can be a bit stingy. The last time I was in Havana, it was a mix of younger Canadian couples, impatient older Canadians, and creepy old Canadian guys looking for company. I imagine it's about the same breakdown for European tourists or SA tourists... except they usually pay much more to go to Cuba and take the experience much more seriously. To the firmly middle class or upper middle class Canadians, Cuba is the budget, no-frills, cheap Caribbean destination where you need to check a lot of your first world impulses at the door and learn to do things the Cuban way. There's a bit of a stigma attached to it, so I doubt you'll ever see Canadian business leaders or hardcore professionals casually strolling the Malecon. Instead, they go to Jamaica and lock themselves in their five star rooms.
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