U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Americas
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 11-01-2013, 03:02 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,939,607 times
Reputation: 3799

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
Perhaps it would be best to move away from color classifications, as such classifications differ. Sure there are more African descendants in Brazil, but the majority are mixed. For that reason, the people identify as such. Identify in the U.S. tends to be a bit different, with people of African descent generally identifying solely as "black" even when of mixed heritage over generations.

Anyway, it's quite interesting to see the varying dynamics in nations where the largest or significant populations are Euro and Afro descended.

Each society evolved in their own way, based on its histories so it is not up to one group to say that their way is better. So the USA is no more ridiculous in how it defines race than Brazil is. Each developed definitions that made sense to them....just as many more upwardly more Afrodescendants appear to be chaning in how they self identify.

What is important is that skin color should not determine one's socio economic status, or how one is treated by employers, the police, etc.

The issue is that in BOTH Brazil and the USA people who are VISIBLY of African descent (what ever they call themselves) are not treated fairly. The USA has done a better job in creating a pool of middle class blacks, and incorporating them into the mainstream than Brazil. Its important to understand why and the Syrian Brazilian expressed what his brother thinks is the difference between the two populations (USA vs Brazil). Sadly too many (non black) Brazilians seem to be in deep denial of the fcats.

The fact is that a "black" empowerment movement exists in Brazil and is visibly advocating for improved access. They are accused of "importing" racism into Brazil, many people being deeply wedded to avoiding any discussion of racism. It is also a fact that the last THREE Brazilian presidents have admitted that tremendous bias against "blacks" exists. It is also a fact that when Obama visited Brazil huge numbers of "blacks" drew tremendous pride in his accomplishment, a fact that the current president of Brazil made mention of.

So why the pretense from so many Brazilians that this idyllic world described by Giberto Frerye exists, or ever existed.

Last edited by caribny; 11-01-2013 at 03:21 PM..

 
Old 11-01-2013, 03:06 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,939,607 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalaMan View Post
Go to the biggest favela in Rio de Janeiro, called Rocinha, and count how many blacks you can find.

Blacks are a SMALL MINORITY in Rocinha, the biggest favela of Rio de Janeiro.

The majority of the population in Rocinha are "nordestinos" (people from the Northeast of Brazil) and descendants of "nordestinos", and most of them are not "black".

The issue might be how YOU define who is black. The question is how many people who look like your typical Ipanema resident live in the favelas.
 
Old 11-01-2013, 08:04 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,676,843 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
The issue is that Brazil uses different "racial" categorizations than the USA does. In the USA to be "black" denotes membership in a specific ethnic group. This will make no sense to a Brazilian who categorize based on appearance.

To use the Cosby family as an example. An American see a black family. A Brazilian will see a family covering a range of categories, all with differing social implications.

Pardo also includes people who are Ibero-Indigenous and not parf African.

Bottom line is that no one knows, or probably will ever know how many "blacks" live in Brazil.
You cannot and do NOT speak for ALL Americans nor do you speak for all Brazilians.

In the USA identity is based on how the individual chooses to identify. Also people from Spanish speaking countries and those that identify as Hispanic/Latino or are labelled as such often get an escape hatch from race in the USA. Why is someone like Rosie Perez or Daddy Yankee viewed as Puerto Rican or something other than black while Colin Powell who is of direct Jamaican descent and mixed race often categorized as black? Why is Obama thought of as black? I guarantee that had Obama and Colin Powell been from Spanish speaking countries or heritages they'd be percieved as non black or even white or simply Hispanic/Latino/Spanish.

Cosby Show casting could have been better. They had 2 mixed race looking children and yet the parents were brown to milk chocolate dark skinned. In addition Bill Cosby's character's father and mother on the show were significantly lighter and more mixed looking than they were.

In the USA it's self identity that dictates one's identity, especially if the perceptions and/or sociopolitical semantics and forks support the respective self chosen identity.

How one is percieved or treated is another thing.

I notice ppl perceive people as something depending on where they were from.

For example, why isn't Beyonce considered a Latina to some, yet Eva Longoria who has similar respective lineage and historical descent is viewed as a Latina. Both Beyonce have roots from the Spanish and French colonial regions of what is now the USA going back to the 1500s.
 
Old 11-02-2013, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,576 posts, read 4,659,856 times
Reputation: 1562
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
The issue might be how YOU define who is black. The question is how many people who look like your typical Ipanema resident live in the favelas.

So, WHO should define who is black?

YOU?

The Americans?

I guess the mixed race people of Rocinha don't think of themselves as blacks. Just ask them what is their race! If they don't say they are black, why should I think they are? Because YOU, the American, says so?
 
Old 11-02-2013, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,576 posts, read 4,659,856 times
Reputation: 1562
By the way, here is a good video with lots of people who live in Rocinha:





Yes, some are back (the minority). But the majority are not.

Many of them could easily be mistaken for someone from a village in Portugal.

Rocinha is the biggest favela in Rio. All the images in this video were recorded in Rocinha.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 05:52 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,939,607 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
You cannot and do NOT speak for ALL Americans nor do you speak for all Brazilians.

In the USA identity is based on how the individual chooses to identify. Also people from Spanish speaking countries and those that identify as Hispanic/Latino or are labelled as such often get an escape hatch from race in the USA. Why is someone like Rosie Perez or Daddy Yankee viewed as Puerto Rican or something other than black while Colin Powell who is of direct Jamaican descent and mixed race often categorized as black? Why is Obama thought of as black? I guarantee that had Obama and Colin Powell been from Spanish speaking countries or heritages they'd be percieved as non black or even white or simply Hispanic/Latino/Spanish.

Cosby Show casting could have been better. They had 2 mixed race looking children and yet the parents were brown to milk chocolate dark skinned. In addition Bill Cosby's character's father and mother on the show were significantly lighter and more mixed looking than they were.

In the USA it's self identity that dictates one's identity, especially if the perceptions and/or sociopolitical semantics and forks support the respective self chosen identity.

How one is percieved or treated is another thing.

I notice ppl perceive people as something depending on where they were from.

For example, why isn't Beyonce considered a Latina to some, yet Eva Longoria who has similar respective lineage and historical descent is viewed as a Latina. Both Beyonce have roots from the Spanish and French colonial regions of what is now the USA going back to the 1500s.
If you know black people you will know that the diversity of the Cosby kids is well in keeping with what really happens. Clearly Mrs Cosby has a mixed look, even though she is medium dark in skin tone. You can debate about how her parents were cast, given the diverse looks of the kids.

Outside of the USA the two light skinned daughters would be seen by most as being in a different category than the others. That is unless one of the parents was not seen as "black". I really do not think that it is the norm for people with two "black" parents to be seen other than "black" in the USA. Whereas in the Caribbean and Brazil this is definitely possible.

I am talkingt about societal norms.

Now in real life in the USA Lisa Bonet will be seen by many as biracial given that her fayher is sen as black, and her mother as white. This is the progress that has been made obver the past 20-20 years.

You are actually asking lots of questions about why Americans classify people the way that they do, but you havent disproven my comments.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 06:04 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,939,607 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalaMan View Post
So, WHO should define who is black?

YOU?

The Americans?

I guess the mixed race people of Rocinha don't think of themselves as blacks. Just ask them what is their race! If they don't say they are black, why should I think they are? Because YOU, the American, says so?

You have no more right to define who is or who isnt black than I do, but appears as if YOU think that you have the right. The usual arrogance we see from many Latin Americans who are in denial of the wide spread racim which exists in your countries.


Run as much as you will but it is quite clear that Brazilians who are black or dark mulatos, are considerably worse off than those who are white/morena. SAnd that they are way less visible in professional/executive levels than the equivalent in the USA are.

I will not waste time to get into a debate about who is or who isnt black in Brazil, except to say that at least one person in their "black" empowerment movement asserted that most cops and employers seem to have an answer to this. And it is way broader than the 7% who self identify as black. Even your govt statistical agency has extensice data to back the fcat that "pretos" and "pardos" are much worse off than are "brancos".

I have a feeling that if we were to combine all the various categories of people who, based on the eye ball test (i.e. not knowing anything about them), are considered "black" in the USA there will be a higher % of those people in the Brazilian population than in the USA. Yet they are way more invisible,in your media and in the corporate world, or even in govt, than they are in the USA.

So continue to base your arguments on who is or isnt black, instead of debating about why these people whose African ancestry is most visible, are doing so badly in Brazil. Apparently you cannot prove otherwise, because by now you would have shown us some one looking like Oprah who is a media mogul as she is. Or some one looking like Ken Chenault, who is a CEO of a major Brazilian corporation. Or some one like Harris-Perry (who is very light skinned) who has her own talk show on a major cable channel.

Instead you wish to debate about who is or who isnt black.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 06:35 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,676,843 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
If you know black people you will know that the diversity of the Cosby kids is well in keeping with what really happens. Clearly Mrs Cosby has a mixed look, even though she is medium dark in skin tone. You can debate about how her parents were cast, given the diverse looks of the kids.

Outside of the USA the two light skinned daughters would be seen by most as being in a different category than the others. That is unless one of the parents was not seen as "black". I really do not think that it is the norm for people with two "black" parents to be seen other than "black" in the USA. Whereas in the Caribbean and Brazil this is definitely possible.

I am talkingt about societal norms.

Now in real life in the USA Lisa Bonet will be seen by many as biracial given that her fayher is sen as black, and her mother as white. This is the progress that has been made obver the past 20-20 years.

You are actually asking lots of questions about why Americans classify people the way that they do, but you havent disproven my comments.
Lisa Bonet is mixed race. Her father is a Louisiana Creole, and her mother is white Jewish American.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 07:02 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,676,843 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
If you know black people you will know that the diversity of the Cosby kids is well in keeping with what really happens. Clearly Mrs Cosby has a mixed look, even though she is medium dark in skin tone. You can debate about how her parents were cast, given the diverse looks of the kids.

Outside of the USA the two light skinned daughters would be seen by most as being in a different category than the others. That is unless one of the parents was not seen as "black". I really do not think that it is the norm for people with two "black" parents to be seen other than "black" in the USA. Whereas in the Caribbean and Brazil this is definitely possible.

I am talkingt about societal norms.

Now in real life in the USA Lisa Bonet will be seen by many as biracial given that her fayher is sen as black, and her mother as white. This is the progress that has been made obver the past 20-20 years.

You are actually asking lots of questions about why Americans classify people the way that they do, but you havent disproven my comments.
You're are misinterpreting and twisting my words around.

I said that in the USA identity is not set in stone or follow any pattern. It all comes down to how the individual defines themselves and where they or their parents come from. A person from Latin America or the Arab world, can be of any race or racial admixture but if they come to the USA they get to use Hispanic/Latino or Arab etc as their own standalone "racial like identity". So Hispanics and Latinos in the USA have their own identity and can cling to it without having to declare a race. Rosie Perez and Daddy Yankee are Puerto Rican or of that descent but yet people don't question Colin Powell who is Jamaican descent or Eric Holder who is of Bajan descent. Barack Obama is half Kenyan and has a white American mother. Had Obama and other people been from Spanish speaking countries, they'd probably be percieved differently as their in between or neither here nor there looks and identity paradigm would allow them to be percieved as something ambiguous. Notice how ppl say "looks Spanish or looks Hispanic/Latino" but yet the same person with a similar mixed ancestry coming from an English speaking country for example may be percieved in a more race based way or simply is called mixed. There are many racist whites that don't like black ppl or ppl they perceive as black but if they see a dark skinned Dominican or Latino/a they make an exception because Hispanic/Latino as a term and identity is percieved as something other than black but not white either.

The person that played Sandra in The Cosby Show in real life is a Louisiana Creole. Technically she is a Latina, as Louisiana Territory was a vast French and Spanish colony. Many people that are Creole have been victimized by the one drop rule unfortunately.

So the main point is that Hispanics/Latinos are exempt from the one drop rule or rather exempt from the perceptions and parameters of what is considered black.

In addition, I should say that in Latin America mixed people can be considered as black if they are raised in the black community and black culture.

Here in the USA, its rather a matter of perception. There IS no one drop rule, but other ppl may be inclined to regarding or accepting an individual as black if they have black in them. But many people won't always regard mixed people as being black. Many mixed people are often assumed to be Hispanic or look Hispanic because of the idea of not looking either black or white but as something exotic or ambiguous
 
Old 11-04-2013, 07:06 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,676,843 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
You have no more right to define who is or who isnt black than I do, but appears as if YOU think that you have the right. The usual arrogance we see from many Latin Americans who are in denial of the wide spread racim which exists in your countries.


Run as much as you will but it is quite clear that Brazilians who are black or dark mulatos, are considerably worse off than those who are white/morena. SAnd that they are way less visible in professional/executive levels than the equivalent in the USA are.

I will not waste time to get into a debate about who is or who isnt black in Brazil, except to say that at least one person in their "black" empowerment movement asserted that most cops and employers seem to have an answer to this. And it is way broader than the 7% who self identify as black. Even your govt statistical agency has extensice data to back the fcat that "pretos" and "pardos" are much worse off than are "brancos".

I have a feeling that if we were to combine all the various categories of people who, based on the eye ball test (i.e. not knowing anything about them), are considered "black" in the USA there will be a higher % of those people in the Brazilian population than in the USA. Yet they are way more invisible,in your media and in the corporate world, or even in govt, than they are in the USA.

So continue to base your arguments on who is or isnt black, instead of debating about why these people whose African ancestry is most visible, are doing so badly in Brazil. Apparently you cannot prove otherwise, because by now you would have shown us some one looking like Oprah who is a media mogul as she is. Or some one looking like Ken Chenault, who is a CEO of a major Brazilian corporation. Or some one like Harris-Perry (who is very light skinned) who has her own talk show on a major cable channel.

Instead you wish to debate about who is or who isnt black.
To add to what you said here, one should ask. If someone brought these pretos and morenos and oscuros Brazilians to the USA, one should ask Americans and Brazilians coming to the USA, would they be able to know that they are different or mixed? The thing I find funny and hypocritical is that these same people who say that Brazilians and others are mixed come to the USA and start one dropping Americans and calling them black. It's hypocritical.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Americas
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top