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Old 11-04-2013, 07:07 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,672,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
You have no more right to define who is or who isnt black than I do, but appears as if YOU think that you have the right. The usual arrogance we see from many Latin Americans who are in denial of the wide spread racim which exists in your countries.


Run as much as you will but it is quite clear that Brazilians who are black or dark mulatos, are considerably worse off than those who are white/morena. SAnd that they are way less visible in professional/executive levels than the equivalent in the USA are.

I will not waste time to get into a debate about who is or who isnt black in Brazil, except to say that at least one person in their "black" empowerment movement asserted that most cops and employers seem to have an answer to this. And it is way broader than the 7% who self identify as black. Even your govt statistical agency has extensice data to back the fcat that "pretos" and "pardos" are much worse off than are "brancos".

I have a feeling that if we were to combine all the various categories of people who, based on the eye ball test (i.e. not knowing anything about them), are considered "black" in the USA there will be a higher % of those people in the Brazilian population than in the USA. Yet they are way more invisible,in your media and in the corporate world, or even in govt, than they are in the USA.

So continue to base your arguments on who is or isnt black, instead of debating about why these people whose African ancestry is most visible, are doing so badly in Brazil. Apparently you cannot prove otherwise, because by now you would have shown us some one looking like Oprah who is a media mogul as she is. Or some one looking like Ken Chenault, who is a CEO of a major Brazilian corporation. Or some one like Harris-Perry (who is very light skinned) who has her own talk show on a major cable channel.

Instead you wish to debate about who is or who isnt black.
Melissa Harris-Perry is actually biracial.

 
Old 11-04-2013, 07:15 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,672,622 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
If you know black people you will know that the diversity of the Cosby kids is well in keeping with what really happens. Clearly Mrs Cosby has a mixed look, even though she is medium dark in skin tone. You can debate about how her parents were cast, given the diverse looks of the kids.

Outside of the USA the two light skinned daughters would be seen by most as being in a different category than the others. That is unless one of the parents was not seen as "black". I really do not think that it is the norm for people with two "black" parents to be seen other than "black" in the USA. Whereas in the Caribbean and Brazil this is definitely possible.

I am talkingt about societal norms.

Now in real life in the USA Lisa Bonet will be seen by many as biracial given that her fayher is sen as black, and her mother as white. This is the progress that has been made obver the past 20-20 years.

You are actually asking lots of questions about why Americans classify people the way that they do, but you havent disproven my comments.
Question for you. Where does one draw the line for who and what is considered black? You say that there are people born to 2 "black identified" parents that come out looking mixed or light or dark that probably have mixed features, but where does one draw the line?

What about someone like Terrence Howard whose parents are both first generation biracials. He himself mentions that he is mixed race.

There are many ppl in the USA that have 1 white grandparent and the rest of the 3 grandparents are BLACK. And there are many ppl like this that identify themselves rightfully as mixed because they have a mixed grandparent.

There are also Multigens in the USA that are starting to claim being mixed as a new separate unique identity rather than black because of how they look even though they and their parents or grandparents are not directly mixed but continually mixed over multiple generations.

Where does one draw the line?

There are many white people that openly have African ancestry and they are accepted as white, such as Channing Tatum. Channing Tatum's father is an Alabama Creole, which has African ancestry. But no one is necessarily viewing him as black. Where does one draw the line?

Ellen DeGeneres probably has black in her. This is also indicative of how the one drop rule doesn't exist at all and how there are many mixed people that are not considered as black in the USA.

People like Obama are simply considered as ALL of his races or backgrounds. It's just like how Mariah Carey is considered all of what she is and has been accepted as WHITE, Hispanic, Latina, and Black. She has won awards and been accepted as equally as being all of these, without having to choose one over the other.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 07:20 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,672,622 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
You have no more right to define who is or who isnt black than I do, but appears as if YOU think that you have the right. The usual arrogance we see from many Latin Americans who are in denial of the wide spread racim which exists in your countries.


Run as much as you will but it is quite clear that Brazilians who are black or dark mulatos, are considerably worse off than those who are white/morena. SAnd that they are way less visible in professional/executive levels than the equivalent in the USA are.

I will not waste time to get into a debate about who is or who isnt black in Brazil, except to say that at least one person in their "black" empowerment movement asserted that most cops and employers seem to have an answer to this. And it is way broader than the 7% who self identify as black. Even your govt statistical agency has extensice data to back the fcat that "pretos" and "pardos" are much worse off than are "brancos".

I have a feeling that if we were to combine all the various categories of people who, based on the eye ball test (i.e. not knowing anything about them), are considered "black" in the USA there will be a higher % of those people in the Brazilian population than in the USA. Yet they are way more invisible,in your media and in the corporate world, or even in govt, than they are in the USA.

So continue to base your arguments on who is or isnt black, instead of debating about why these people whose African ancestry is most visible, are doing so badly in Brazil. Apparently you cannot prove otherwise, because by now you would have shown us some one looking like Oprah who is a media mogul as she is. Or some one looking like Ken Chenault, who is a CEO of a major Brazilian corporation. Or some one like Harris-Perry (who is very light skinned) who has her own talk show on a major cable channel.

Instead you wish to debate about who is or who isnt black.
Melissa Harris-Perry is actually biracial.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Chicago
248 posts, read 313,354 times
Reputation: 104
America has more blacks in raw number and percentage wise
 
Old 11-04-2013, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Chicago
248 posts, read 313,354 times
Reputation: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Each society evolved in their own way, based on its histories so it is not up to one group to say that their way is better. So the USA is no more ridiculous in how it defines race than Brazil is. Each developed definitions that made sense to them....just as many more upwardly more Afrodescendants appear to be chaning in how they self identify.

What is important is that skin color should not determine one's socio economic status, or how one is treated by employers, the police, etc.

The issue is that in BOTH Brazil and the USA people who are VISIBLY of African descent (what ever they call themselves) are not treated fairly. The USA has done a better job in creating a pool of middle class blacks, and incorporating them into the mainstream than Brazil. Its important to understand why and the Syrian Brazilian expressed what his brother thinks is the difference between the two populations (USA vs Brazil). Sadly too many (non black) Brazilians seem to be in deep denial of the fcats.

The fact is that a "black" empowerment movement exists in Brazil and is visibly advocating for improved access. They are accused of "importing" racism into Brazil, many people being deeply wedded to avoiding any discussion of racism. It is also a fact that the last THREE Brazilian presidents have admitted that tremendous bias against "blacks" exists. It is also a fact that when Obama visited Brazil huge numbers of "blacks" drew tremendous pride in his accomplishment, a fact that the current president of Brazil made mention of.

So why the pretense from so many Brazilians that this idyllic world described by Giberto Frerye exists, or ever existed.
Correct, Brazil is a beautiful country, the food, the culture, the history is much better. But the blacks in America are more educated, take the city of Atlanta for example the city is mostly black and has a very low crime rate, the blacks there are extremely wealthy, many black celebrities live there too.
 
Old 11-06-2013, 07:58 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,672,622 times
Reputation: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
If you know black people you will know that the diversity of the Cosby kids is well in keeping with what really happens. Clearly Mrs Cosby has a mixed look, even though she is medium dark in skin tone. You can debate about how her parents were cast, given the diverse looks of the kids.

Outside of the USA the two light skinned daughters would be seen by most as being in a different category than the others. That is unless one of the parents was not seen as "black". I really do not think that it is the norm for people with two "black" parents to be seen other than "black" in the USA. Whereas in the Caribbean and Brazil this is definitely possible.

I am talkingt about societal norms.

Now in real life in the USA Lisa Bonet will be seen by many as biracial given that her fayher is sen as black, and her mother as white. This is the progress that has been made obver the past 20-20 years.

You are actually asking lots of questions about why Americans classify people the way that they do, but you havent disproven my comments.
So then what about people born to 2 mixed race parents?

For example, Lenny Kravitz is the child of a White Jewish American father and a Bahamian mother.

Lisa Bonet is the child of a Louisiana Creole father and a White Jewish American mother.

Both Lenny Kravitz and Lisa Bonet had a daughter named Zoe Kravitz.

What would you consider Zoe Kravitz? Rightfully, Zoe Kravitz is mixed race being the offspring of 2 mixed race parents.

If Zoe Kravitz had a child with someone like Evan Ross(Diana Ross last child) what would you consider their child. Their child is also rightfully mixed race.
 
Old 11-07-2013, 12:08 AM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,672,622 times
Reputation: 424
Evan Ross is mixed race also. His father is a white European.
 
Old 11-07-2013, 12:09 AM
 
2,241 posts, read 2,672,622 times
Reputation: 424
This is an interesting yet very controversial documentary on race, racism, and racial and ethnic discrimination in Brazil:

ADIFF 2013 Preview - Documentary 'RAÇA' ('RACE') Will Tackle Racial Inequality In Brazil | Shadow and Act
 
Old 11-07-2013, 01:38 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,925,572 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
Melissa Harris-Perry is actually biracial.

That might be but she self defines as black.l I am always amused by the people who advocate that folks should be allowed to self define, when they do not wish to be "black", but then ridicule others with recent mixed ancestry who self define as "black".
 
Old 11-07-2013, 01:57 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,925,572 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
Question for you. Where does one draw the line for who and what is considered black? You say that there are people born to 2 "black identified" parents that come out looking mixed or light or dark that probably have mixed features, but where does one draw the line?

What about someone like Terrence Howard whose parents are both first generation biracials. He himself mentions that he is mixed race.

There are many ppl in the USA that have 1 white grandparent and the rest of the 3 grandparents are BLACK. And there are many ppl like this that identify themselves rightfully as mixed because they have a mixed grandparent.

There are also Multigens in the USA that are starting to claim being mixed as a new separate unique identity rather than black because of how they look even though they and their parents or grandparents are not directly mixed but continually mixed over multiple generations.

Where does one draw the line?

There are many white people that openly have African ancestry and they are accepted as white, such as Channing Tatum. Channing Tatum's father is an Alabama Creole, which has African ancestry. But no one is necessarily viewing him as black. Where does one draw the line?

Ellen DeGeneres probably has black in her. This is also indicative of how the one drop rule doesn't exist at all and how there are many mixed people that are not considered as black in the USA.

People like Obama are simply considered as ALL of his races or backgrounds. It's just like how Mariah Carey is considered all of what she is and has been accepted as WHITE, Hispanic, Latina, and Black. She has won awards and been accepted as equally as being all of these, without having to choose one over the other.

I do not get into arguments about who is or who isnt black. For me calling Adam Clayton Powell "black" is ridiculous. But then I come from the Non Hispanic Caribbean where there are sharp differences between "black" and "red/brown". There were clearly reasons why people like him did and do call themselves "black" within US contexts.

Indeed Michael Manley (of Jamaica) used to say that in the USA he is black, in Jamaica (and the rest of the non Hispanic Caribbean) he is brown, and in the Latin world he is white.

My concern is whether those who are significantly of Afro descent (regardless as to what they might call themselves) receive equal consideration in access to opprtunity to improve themselves and respect for who they are.

I also find interesting the Brazilian concept of "black," which excludes any one who displays the slightest non African heritage, and "white" which includes any one who is light skinned with straight/wavy hair, even if their Indigenous or African ancestry is very apparent. Clearly "black; is something to be avoided, and "white" something to be valued. So they make it easy to escape being black and to embrace being white, and I suspect that this underlies most of their beef with the US variety of racial classification.
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