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Old 09-27-2012, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Iowa, Heartland of Murica
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I am Brazilian of Syrian ancestry and the idea that we are all Brazilian, regardless of ethnicity is a bit of a stretch. I am 3rd generation Brazilian but we are very aware of our Syrian roots- to say that me and an African Brazilian share the same values or culture is simply not true- I dont like samba, don't have any interest in dancing or Carnaval- the values that were passed to us, descendants of immigrants are very different from the values of African-Brazilian or Brazilians of Native origin

 
Old 09-27-2012, 11:51 AM
 
56,538 posts, read 80,847,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Repubocrat View Post
I am Brazilian of Syrian ancestry and the idea that we are all Brazilian, regardless of ethnicity is a bit of a stretch. I am 3rd generation Brazilian but we are very aware of our Syrian roots- to say that me and an African Brazilian share the same values or culture is simply not true- I dont like samba, don't have any interest in dancing or Carnaval- the values that were passed to us, descendants of immigrants are very different from the values of African-Brazilian or Brazilians of Native origin
I believe this, but I think that people get the idealistic views and the reality of their country confused. Look at the article I posted about being Black in Brazil.

Also, there are Whites in the US with African ancestry, but it just isn't publicized as much.

Interestingly, Canada had a free Black community before the US(Birchtown in Nova Scotia in 1783). Many went on to start Sierra Leone.
 
Old 09-27-2012, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Iowa, Heartland of Murica
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When my great grandfather came to Brazil from Syria- he was able to start a business in last than a year- In my hometown- we have now Chinese immigrants that barely speak Portuguese and already own businesses- You are never going to find a Syrian-Brazilian or German- Brazilian living in a favela. Some of the African Brazilians have been Brazilians much longer than us and they are still living in a favela. Why do you suppose that is?
 
Old 09-27-2012, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,564 posts, read 4,651,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Repubocrat View Post
I am Brazilian of Syrian ancestry and the idea that we are all Brazilian, regardless of ethnicity is a bit of a stretch. I am 3rd generation Brazilian but we are very aware of our Syrian roots- to say that me and an African Brazilian share the same values or culture is simply not true- I dont like samba, don't have any interest in dancing or Carnaval- the values that were passed to us, descendants of immigrants are very different from the values of African-Brazilian or Brazilians of Native origin

That's because you're not Brazilian.

You're just an American who happened to be born in Brazil.
 
Old 09-27-2012, 01:26 PM
 
4,433 posts, read 4,415,587 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalaMan View Post
I think you are not well informed about the current state of Brazilian society in the year 2012 (and not in 1992)
I repeat at the end of the day the Government, media, upper and middle class in US is way more diverse, Brazil isn't close. Brazil has a really bad racial equally issue. Again I'm not trying to diss Brazil but seriously. Both country has issues this is one Brazil has.

26 minutes in to the end is just golden
Black in Latin America E02, Brazil: A Racial Paradise - YouTube

Minority Rights Group International : Brazil : Afro-Brazilians
Quote:
Afro-Brazilians are about half the population, but their economic participation is only 20 per cent of the GDP. Unemployment is 50 per cent higher among Afro-Brazilians than among whites, and blacks who are employed earn less than half of what whites earn. The majority of Afro-Brazilians, 78 per cent, live below the poverty line compared to 40 per cent of whites, and the life expectancy of African-descendants is only 66 years compared to 72 years for European-descendants. Half of all blacks are illiterate, while less than 20 per cent of whites are unable to read. Only 4 per cent of Afro-Brazilians between the ages of 18 and 24 have attended a university, compared to 12 per cent of whites. The heated debate about affirmative action in higher education only impacts 25 per cent of the current African-descendant population, because the vast majority of Afro-Brazilians have less than 11 years of formal schooling; 40 per cent of blacks have completed less than seven years of schooling, and are therefore ineligible for college admission.

The statistics disaggregated by race widely available throughout Brazil demonstrate a consistent socio-economic gap between blacks and whites due to discrimination in every aspect of society. Recent data from the Institute of Applied Economic Research (IPEA) and the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), for example, demonstrates that Afro-Brazilians, regardless of level of education, position or title, are far much more likely to experience downward socio-economic mobility than whites. Race and poverty are strongly correlated, in large part because racial discrimination causes poverty.

Don't ask, don't tell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The US we just repel don't ask don't tell. Which was a policy for gays in US military. In law was if guys were closeted the can't be discriminate against, and if some one gay disclose there sexual orientation they were discharged. What it did was protect prejudice people by forcing gays hide there sexual orientation. When, if people wasn't prejudice it wouldn't be a problem in first place.
The reason I brought this up is because Brazil racial relation is pretty much don't ask don't tell de facto. Brazil was the last western nation to stop slavery. After slavery the Brazil government adopted racial Whitening practices "branqueamento", As crazy as it is, Immigration was encourage from Europe to mix with the Blacks in hopping to get ride of the "negro problem" A lot stuff associated with Brazilian culture was illegal example capoeira.

Racial whitening - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This later change because Gilberto Freyre who did argue against the racial whitening ideals but he romanticize relations between Masters and Slaves. Originally with the racial whitening context anything of Afro Brazilian culture was seen as uncivilized he did help change that. Brazil started embracing being cultural mix. The error is the racial equality issue and this is why Brazil is racially like don't ask don't tell. He Romanticize Black slaves were equal to white slave holders but this just not reality. Slave holders are of upper class and slaves were of lower class. But since slaves suppose to equal, blacks can't speak about social injustice because Brazil is a racial democracy. So speaking about race under any context is bad.

Again if misrepresent black Americans can speak out about it, If there's a lack of black cast members of TV a Black director or producer can step up. This is more conversational in Brazil Blacks creating films or shows because of a lack of black cast members or actors. Because to do this you have to think a race. You said it your self there's no black culture in Brazil so bring this up will be disturbing the 'race democracy" Brazil suppose to be. In America is race not a good or bad thing. And minorities have a subculture under the larger culture we join. Is there a Black American culture? yes! but black Americans also embrace the general American culture also. Economic 101 people are trying to make money, the free market doesn't target the low income because of that reason. So how do you think the Brazil media is going to turn out, how do you think everything else in society is going turn out. I do believe Brazil can over come this. But trying to make Brazil perfect and present everything in the US as wrong isn't going to help.
 
Old 09-28-2012, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,564 posts, read 4,651,676 times
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Gilberto Freyre was a genius, and I can only laugh of the very well organized Freyre-bashing movement, composed by a minority who would love to see the American racial model applied in Brazil.

That minority love to distort the History of the country, and the statistics about the present of the country.

The socio-economic gap between blacks and whites in Brazil is not bigger than that in the USA, and different from the USA, it's mainly caused by the historic weakness of the public education system in Brazil, and not by racism.


You couldn't expect that the freed slaves, who were never even taught how to read and write by their masters, and who had NOTHING in terms of material possessions when they were freed, could provide a "better future" for their kids without a good public education system. And Brazil, during most of the 20th century, had a very weak public education system. Until a few decades ago, lots of children were out of school (because of the lack of schools), and the existing schools were precarious.

But the middle class in Brazil always sent their kids to private schools, that they could pay for, so their children always had better opportunities.

Today, public education has improved, and there are almost no kids out of school anymore, but the quality of the public schools is still lagging behind the private schools of the middle class.

So, it's not a matter of racism, but a matter of opportunities provided by education. The slaves who had NOTHING when they were freed could not pay for private schools for their kids. So, their kids never had the opportunities to have good jobs, because of their lack of education. And because they didn't have good jobs, they also could not pay to send their own kids (the grandchildren of the slaves) for private schools.

This is not a problem exclusive to blacks. Social ascension was always difficult in Brazil, regardless of race, because the kids of the poor lacked opportunities to have a good education.

Only good public education can improve social mobility. And good public education is a goal still being built in Brazil, in small steps.
 
Old 09-28-2012, 07:59 AM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 8 days ago)
 
47,997 posts, read 45,452,601 times
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Quote:
Some of the African Brazilians have been Brazilians much longer than us and they are still living in a favela. Why do you suppose that is?
For the same reason there are so many Black Americans in the slums of the USA. There is still discrimination that exists. Even with the multiracial democracy, discrimination still exists, and Blacks are not the only ones living in the slums of Brazil.
 
Old 09-28-2012, 08:02 AM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 8 days ago)
 
47,997 posts, read 45,452,601 times
Reputation: 15313
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalaMan View Post
Gilberto Freyre was a genius, and I can only laugh of the very well organized Freyre-bashing movement, composed by a minority who would love to see the American racial model applied in Brazil.

That minority love to distort the History of the country, and the statistics about the present of the country.

The socio-economic gap between blacks and whites in Brazil is not bigger than that in the USA, and different from the USA, it's mainly caused by the historic weakness of the public education system in Brazil, and not by racism.


You couldn't expect that the freed slaves, who were never even taught how to read and write by their masters, and who had NOTHING in terms of material possessions when they were freed, could provide a "better future" for their kids without a good public education system. And Brazil, during most of the 20th century, had a very weak public education system. Until a few decades ago, lots of children were out of school (because of the lack of schools), and the existing schools were precarious.

But the middle class in Brazil always sent their kids to private schools, that they could pay for, so their children always had better opportunities.

Today, public education has improved, and there are almost no kids out of school anymore, but the quality of the public schools is still lagging behind the private schools of the middle class.

So, it's not a matter of racism, but a matter of opportunities provided by education. The slaves who had NOTHING when they were freed could not pay for private schools for their kids. So, their kids never had the opportunities to have good jobs, because of their lack of education. And because they didn't have good jobs, they also could not pay to send their own kids (the grandchildren of the slaves) for private schools.

This is not a problem exclusive to blacks. Social ascension was always difficult in Brazil, regardless of race, because the kids of the poor lacked opportunities to have a good education.

Only good public education can improve social mobility. And good public education is a goal still being built in Brazil, in small steps.
Blacks are not the only ones in the slums or having issues getting an education. This is a big class issue. Blacks, being discriminated against more, have it even harder. One thing to understand is how race works within a class-based society.
 
Old 09-28-2012, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Iowa, Heartland of Murica
3,437 posts, read 5,509,927 times
Reputation: 3410
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalaMan View Post
The socio economic difference between blacks and whites in Brazil is not bigger than that in the USA
What a crock of ****! Here in the USA, We have a large Black middle class and also a smaller Black upper class! I would love to hear the name of some Middle Class or Upper Middle Class majority Black cities or neighborhoods in Brazil. Go ahead, I am waiting!
 
Old 09-28-2012, 01:57 PM
 
4,433 posts, read 4,415,587 times
Reputation: 3500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalaMan View Post
Gilberto Freyre was a genius, and I can only laugh of the very well organized Freyre-bashing movement, composed by a minority who would love to see the American racial model applied in Brazil.

That minority love to distort the History of the country, and the statistics about the present of the country.

The socio-economic gap between blacks and whites in Brazil is not bigger than that in the USA, and different from the USA, it's mainly caused by the historic weakness of the public education system in Brazil, and not by racism.

So, it's not a matter of racism, but a matter of opportunities provided by education. The slaves who had NOTHING when they were freed could not pay for private schools for their kids. So, their kids never had the opportunities to have good jobs, because of their lack of education. And because they didn't have good jobs, they also could not pay to send their own kids (the grandchildren of the slaves) for private schools.

This is not a problem exclusive to blacks. Social ascension was always difficult in Brazil, regardless of race, because the kids of the poor lacked opportunities to have a good education.

Only good public education can improve social mobility. And good public education is a goal still being built in Brazil, in small steps.
I'm sorry if Brazil model of race relation came from Gilberto Freyre. America model for race relations came from Martin Luther king.

Pre civil right movement and post civil right America are 2 different things. I agree the obvious that Brazil racial climate is better than Pre civil right movement But post 1960s and it's 2012 in America...... NO. Gilberto Freyre romanticize about slavery in Brazil that Slaves were equal to slave masters. By doing this the Government had no interest in fixing the racial equality gap and black Brazilians don't believe in supporting each other. The results are even The UN has been talking note of the racial equality gap in Brazil.

Quote:
You couldn't expect that the freed slaves, who were never even taught how to read and write by their masters, and who had NOTHING in terms of material possessions when they were freed, could provide a "better future" for their kids without a good public education system. And Brazil, during most of the 20th century, had a very weak public education system. Until a few decades ago, lots of children were out of school (because of the lack of schools), and the existing schools were precarious.

But the middle class in Brazil always sent their kids to private schools, that they could pay for, so their children always had better opportunities.

Today, public education has improved, and there are almost no kids out of school anymore, but the quality of the public schools is still lagging behind the private schools of the middle class.
This is what I was talking about Black Americans went though the same damn thing except worse. Black Brazilians went though slavery like Black Americans went slavery that not an excuse. Black Brazilians never had anything like The Jim Crow laws after slavery. With your conclusion African Americans should have it way worse than the Black and Brown Brazilians, which is the radical opposite of reality.

Regardless of those dang racists laws Blacks Americans fought for upward mobility support ourselves that wasn't support by the mainstream. Both by protesting the racist laws and educating are selves. Blacks Americans didn't join integrated public schools until the 60s. And After the 60s with white flight in many cities cause Many blacks to live in lagging school districts. So why does Blacks Americans have more upward mobility than Black Brazilians even before the civil right movement under Jim Crow? Black americans had public schools what? you mean the shacks and churches we taught each other in?


MLK's Last Speech - YouTube


Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
For the same reason there are so many Black Americans in the slums of the USA. There is still discrimination that exists. Even with the multiracial democracy, discrimination still exists, and Blacks are not the only ones living in the slums of Brazil.


You can't even began to compare a American ghetto to a Brazilian favela.

African Americans buy power is 1.1 trillion, that equal to being the 11th highiest GDP in World If Blacks Americans were alone in the US. As I said yes there's a racial equality gap in the US but no way in hell can you compare the Black & Brown Brazilians social situation of racial equality in Brazil, to Blacks Americans living in the US. Again less than 25% of Black Americans live under Americans high standards of poverty, over 3/4 of African Americans are middle class and up.

In Brazil one third of the population is living under the official poverty line. Blacks count as 70% of the poor, according to the federal research institute IPEA. There's no way you can compare. Black and Brown brazilians make up 80 million and there still much drastically larger Blacks middle class Americans.

International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination

Minorities support each other if the mainstream has glass ceiling, Madam CJ Walker was the first Black American millionaire. Her parents and elder siblings were born slaves. She market hair products to the Black community making a great fortune. She letter began helping other blacks start their own businesses and she later join the NAACP.

See Brazilian culture not only prevent the Jim crow system (the racism) but it discourage Blacks and Browns organizing to pull their selves out of a disadvantage. Blacks and Brown Brazilians lack political groups representing them. They lack media representations and etc. They are nearly half the population, Are they near half the government?...... NO. Are they nearly half the employed?....... NO. Are they near half the faces you see on TV and magazine?..... NO. As I stated in America race is not a good or bad thing, racism is a bad thing. Avoiding the topic of race doesn't stop racism it ignores it. Brazil has been slow in fighting against racial equality.

Last edited by chiatldal; 09-28-2012 at 02:22 PM..
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