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Old 10-09-2012, 10:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
The whole identity along color lines, for the most part, tends to be an American thing. In most countries, including in much of Europe and in Latin America, culture is the defining factor in people's identity, and not so much race or color. Of course, there are cases when this is not true, but overall it is.

The definition I quoted has been around for over a century and there are old US newspaper articles where references were made to the 'Irish race' and the 'Italian race' or the 'British race.' You can search for them on the net if you need proof of this.

The point is that the word race can and does implies biological or cultural aspects, and one type doesn't negates the other.

For example, if we look at African-Americans, is it an actual biological race or a cultural one? I think its more cultural since it includes a lot of mixed race individuals and naturally, if a person is mixed, then they are not wholly one thing and doesn't makes sense to consider them one thing. But they are considered one thing, because of their culture. This is why Alicia Keys is considered black in the US, despite she is visually whiter looking than anything else. Another case is Soledad O'Brien, who for all practical purposes looks white, but yet claims to be black, not even mixed, but black. Why? Culture, for the most part.

Americans tend to think that race dictates culture, so people are labelled accordingly and are expected to act in certain ways and like certain things, all based on their looks. Imagine a black guy listening, singing and dancing to Metal or Punk in public. He will be seen as the weirdest creature alive by many Americans, simply because his skin doesn't go with his cultural actions. That's suppose to be a 'white thing,' after all.
Pretty good post. Especially decent points are bolded.

 
Old 10-10-2012, 12:48 AM
 
4,445 posts, read 4,557,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
If your definition of whose Latin means being descendants of Portuguese and Spanish, then most Latin American mestizos and even mulattoes are Latins since they have Portuguese/Spanish ancestry, and most of it from the paternal line, which is even more important since Western society has been a patriarchal society, where a person's cultural belonging and social status was dictated by that of their father, their father's father, their father's father father, etc.

Add to that the language, religion, art, history, food, architecture, cultural value system, way of thinking and interpreting the world, etc of their culture is all sustained on a very strong Latin base. In fact, for most of Latin America's population, Latin blood runs through their veins and the Latin culture is the basis of their existence. Everything else tends to be minor influences.

That's why not a single Latin American country is the Spanish or Portuguese contribution considered to be an 'influence,' but the African and Indian contribution are influences. Why? Because the cultural base of most Latin American countries is overwhelmingly Latin/European/Western.

Plus, most Latin Americans can do an ancestry DNA test and a significant part of their ancestry will trace to Western Europe, especially the Latin part of that continent. Most Latin Americans are either white, mestizos and/or mulattoes with Spanish/Portuguese family patriarchs.
And your message is so hypocritical many whites..... in some countries most whites are mix in Latin America but yet your raging upset that race is not elusive in the US. The mix people can pass as black also.. this post it's very telling.

Also the paternal line thing doesn't work in North America. The US went racially by matrilineal historically anyways. Again your talking about things you don't know. But it's okay mestizos and/or mulattoes to be Spanish/Portuguese but it's not okay for them to be Black and/or native American? yet you were trying to debate with me?

Racial whitening - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So basically your justifying racial whitening at the same time trying to criticizing the the out date concept of the one drop rule wow. First off you don't become your father or mother race you become both, both Latin America and North America historical had racist ideals.

But this does explain a lot why in Latin America to why there's such a racial achievement gap between the whites and the blacks, Native Americans, etc. And why in Latin America the media is so white while the countries are so mix.
 
Old 10-10-2012, 12:49 AM
 
4,445 posts, read 4,557,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
The whole identity along color lines, for the most part, tends to be an American thing. In most countries, including in much of Europe and in Latin America, culture is the defining factor in people's identity, and not so much race or color. Of course, there are cases when this is not true, but overall it is.

The definition I quoted has been around for over a century and there are old US newspaper articles where references were made to the 'Irish race' and the 'Italian race' or the 'British race.' You can search for them on the net if you need proof of this.

The point is that the word race can and does implies biological or cultural aspects, and one type doesn't negates the other.

For example, if we look at African-Americans, is it an actual biological race or a cultural one? I think its more cultural since it includes a lot of mixed race individuals and naturally, if a person is mixed, then they are not wholly one thing and doesn't makes sense to consider them one thing. But they are considered one thing, because of their culture. This is why Alicia Keys is considered black in the US, despite she is visually whiter looking than anything else. Another case is Soledad O'Brien, who for all practical purposes looks white, but yet claims to be black, not even mixed, but black. Why? Culture, for the most part.

Americans tend to think that race dictates culture, so people are labelled accordingly and are expected to act in certain ways and like certain things, all based on their looks. Imagine a black guy listening, singing and dancing to Metal or Punk in public. He will be seen as the weirdest creature alive by many Americans, simply because his skin doesn't go with his cultural actions. That's suppose to be a 'white thing,' after all.
I told you before American identify by ancestry color is only to black and white ancestry the rest of Americans identify by ancestry. We don't call people native from Asia yellow we call them Asian. Only people with European and Africa ancestry does the color thing. Basically Race = ancestry = heritage. The actual color of skin is irreverent. Americas are going ancestral heritage and the culture that comes with that not your actual skin color giving you a dang culture.

Since when is punk or mental something of a ethnic heritage, I pretty sure no one white or black great grandparents where listening to punk or mental. It's little confusing because African American can refer to any of African ancestry at the time African American can refer to blacks who ancestry specifically been in the US like a ethnic group. As I stated the African Americans who are descendant back to slavery are majority African descendant identify together it does matter if you see us as mix, creoles or what ever. The term color was once popular it's outdated. In the Black Americans and Black west Indians don't have same heritage. Obviously black culture doesn't mean the same thing now doesn't it?

Soledad O'Brien identify as just black? WTF? I swear I brought up her in example in debate over a similar topic already responding to you. In America race is not elusive Soledad O'Brien is Black and white. Mix people modernly pass as both groups. It's like it's bugging you or something that if someone mix say there black! Which it doesn't mean there fully black. The only person who take as if there claiming to be fulling black is you. I stated before Soledad O'Brien has been honor by Irish America and honor by the NAACP. You really don't know what your talking about.
 
Old 10-10-2012, 02:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
If you want an example of DNA contribution in Brazil, read this story: In spite of racial diversity, European genetic ancestry predominates in Brazil

If we analyze every part of what makes a modern person, in this case a Brazilian, in the vast majority of them we will find a predominance of European culture with touches of African and Indigenous influences, but these last two almost always are minor compared to the European cultural base.

These are just facts. Brazil and most of the other Latin American countries are overwhelmingly Latin and Western. This can't be denied or downplayed. To do so is an attempt to be a racist, IMO.
I'm skeptical one because there were DNA test before that contradicts this. Then northeastern vs southern Brazil there's a clear pattern of different tones. If across regions have similar balance of ancestry there shouldn't be a tone pattern.

And OMG That funny so not supporting white supremacy is racist? It doesn't matter what culture influence the most of a country. Your the one so into that! It seems your pride more that the culture down there comes from Europe then the mixture that is the Americas interesting.

Quote:
Something similar happens in the US, especially with African-Americans who are culturally much more European than anything else, but many people choose to ignore this reality. Some do it because of pride, while others its just pure racism. But none of the two changes the cultural reality.
One America is call the west but this not Europe Americans are American not European we don't walk around calling ourselves Anglos.

Another thing we are African American we are not African European or Afro-Anglo for that matter we were born here and been here a minute. It doesn't matter what came from Africa or Europe we are the Americas. The whole thing your spinning itself is racist. So regardless of the diversity and the fact we are in the Americas, we suppose to minimize this because America is more strongly influence by Europe? As I said people are stating there ancestry color is irreverent. We are people who are majority of African descent African American culture is shape by are ancestors experiences in the US. may that be by African or Europe culture. Example Soul food is a African American tradition it started by slaves but it was influence by African, Native American, and European tradition.
 
Old 10-10-2012, 11:50 AM
Status: "Happy 2020!" (set 17 days ago)
 
5,682 posts, read 8,428,434 times
Reputation: 4476
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
And your message is so hypocritical many whites..... in some countries most whites are mix in Latin America but yet your raging upset that race is not elusive in the US. The mix people can pass as black also.. this post it's very telling.

Also the paternal line thing doesn't work in North America. The US went racially by matrilineal historically anyways. Again your talking about things you don't know. But it's okay mestizos and/or mulattoes to be Spanish/Portuguese but it's not okay for them to be Black and/or native American? yet you were trying to debate with me?

So basically your justifying racial whitening at the same time trying to criticizing the the out date concept of the one drop rule wow. First off you don't become your father or mother race you become both, both Latin America and North America historical had racist ideals.
Your post is so racist, its not even funny.

Read well, no one has said (except for you) that anyone is either Spanish or Portuguese. No one has said (except for you) that anyone can pass for either white, black, or anything else. That has not even been part of the conversation until just now with your racist rant.

All I'm clarifying here is who’s Latin.

However, since antma robel came here with a racist (and invalid) definition of who’s Latin, I responded in kind TO SHOW THE STUPIDITY IN WHAT S/HE WROTE!

That’s why I started my post with ”If your definition of who’s Latin means…”

Someone with normal reading comprehension would had understood this immediately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
I told you before American identify by ancestry color is only to black and white ancestry the rest of Americans identify by ancestry…
I told you before that I’m an American born and raised. Its quite interesting you choose to ignore that in your rambling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84
Americans tend to think that race dictates culture, so people are labelled accordingly and are expected to act in certain ways and like certain things, all based on their looks.
Basically Race = ancestry = heritage. The actual color of skin is irreverent. Americas are going ancestral heritage and the culture that comes with that not your actual skin color giving you a dang culture.
That’s what I said in the part from my post that you highlighted in red. Americans are very racist, that’s why they think in race-based identities. I’ve been saying this in this forum ad nauseum for a very long time here, with you at times attacking it and at other times agreeing with it without even knowing.

You need to let go of your racism.

Remember Martin Luther King: “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin...”

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
Since when is punk or mental something of a ethnic heritage, I pretty sure no one white or black great grandparents where listening to punk or mental. It's little confusing because African American can refer to any of African ancestry at the time African American can refer to blacks who ancestry specifically been in the US like a ethnic group. As I stated the African Americans who are descendant back to slavery are majority African descendant identify together it does matter if you see us as mix, creoles or what ever. The term color was once popular it's outdated. In the Black Americans and Black west Indians don't have same heritage. Obviously black culture doesn't mean the same thing now doesn't it?
More mumbo jumbo from your part. I suggest you re-read what I posted since you obviously don’t get it. In reality I think you are just pretending to not get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
Soledad O'Brien identify as just black? WTF? I swear I brought up her in example in debate over a similar topic already responding to you. In America race is not elusive Soledad O'Brien is Black and white.
I know Soledad O’Brien is mixed, I have known that since before that time you injected her in another discussion where you were pro the One-Drop-Rule, all in the hopes that the Latin Americans here would do as she does. Of course, it’s a good thing there are still people that will remind those like her that she is not black:

Soledad O’Brien claims Jesse Jackson told her she didn’t count as black

So much for the One-Drop-Rule. Lol

And, I know that in the US race is not elusive. Americans, in general, are quite racist. This is why identity in the US is heavily tied to racial origin (and when mixed, the person is expected to choose one race, usually the darker one) and also, why many Americans think they are the final authority on topics about race.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
You really don't know what your talking about.
You're looking into a mirror without even noticing. lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
I'm skeptical one because there were DNA test before that contradicts this. Then northeastern vs southern Brazil there's a clear pattern of different tones. If across regions have similar balance of ancestry there shouldn't be a tone pattern.
Of course you will be skeptical, it goes against your agenda; plus, its obvious you didn’t even read the article and that you have no idea of what you are talking. If you did, you would had known:

Genes Not Skin Colour
Scientists say that it is just a small handful of genes that dictate the colour of our skin, and that those genes are not a real indicator of racial ancestry. So DNA testing could show a white person could have more African genes then a black one for instance. The Portuguese, French, Irish and other Europeans throughout history went to Brazil in search of a new home, so many black Brazilians have strong European as well as African genetic make-up.”

DNA Testing Reveals Brazilian Identity

Here’s the article once again, read it! Brazilians Are More European Than African | Eyes On Brazil
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
And OMG That funny so not supporting white supremacy is racist? It doesn't matter what culture influence the most of a country. Your the one so into that! It seems your pride more that the culture down there comes from Europe then the mixture that is the Americas interesting.
It is interesting that you are here equating being Latin with white supremacy and then claiming that culture doesn’t matter. Let me guess, your claim that culture doesn’t matter is because for you, perceived race matters more! That's why I say you are a racist, you value race to a degree that is just ridiculous.

Also, racial pride is the most stupid thing, pride should be limited to personal achievements! Now imagine telling someone with that value that they have racial pride. Oh wait, you just did!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
One America is call the west but this not Europe Americans are American not European we don't walk around calling ourselves Anglos.
The most fundamental American values are of British origin and hence, Anglo. Whether we Americans go around calling ourselves Anglos or not really doesn’t matter since it doesn’t changes a thing. In the mean time, we will continue to debate about this in English, the language from our Anglo origin and then deny it. lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
So regardless of the diversity and the fact we are in the Americas, we suppose to minimize this because America is more strongly influence by Europe?
Everything should be accepted within its proportion, this doesn’t mean minimizing or aggrandizing anything. It means being very real.

Anyway, your ramblings are a perfect example of what I’ve been saying for a very long time. Americans are racist, this explains why race-based identities is considered of paramount importance, and many of the African-Americans (of all people) are willing to go to great length to protect this very racist way of seeing the world. I should had added that they then go into denial while doing exactly what they deny. lol

Last edited by AntonioR; 10-10-2012 at 12:07 PM..
 
Old 10-10-2012, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,672 posts, read 34,572,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branh0913 View Post
I know I get annoyed by this. When people say they are white and Mexican, or black and Puerto Rican I find this quite silly. I find this as dumb as someone saying I'm half black and half American. When I decided to read up a little on Latin American history I found that their counties are quite similar to America. I then learned that muti ethnic socieities isn't just the domain oftthe USA but countries in the entire Western Hempisphere. I think we tend to broad stroke Latin American countries as being homogenous, when they're not.
Mi hermano, as a black Cuban I've been railing against this online and irl for decades. Yes, it's idiotic.

Quote:
Some silly inconsistencies are especially present when people are blacks from Latin America, then are considered less black than black Americans. Yet they both share the same background of slavery, yet people find them .less black. Many say blacks in Latin America are mixed and run away with it, yet black Americans are similiarly mixed.
Black is black.

Quote:
I also find it quite irritating when Latinos in America are more than willing to classify themselves as a different racial category, but in reality many Latinos in America can fall into a broad list of categories in their home country. One.of the most.disturbing is when say mixed with Brazilian, yet Brazil has more racial categories than America!

Why dont more people challenge this. Hyphenated America is already widely inconsistent and this adds to it even more
People don't know enough to challenge it.
 
Old 10-10-2012, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,672 posts, read 34,572,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
The whole identity along color lines, for the most part, tends to be an American thing. In most countries, including in much of Europe and in Latin America, culture is the defining factor in people's identity, and not so much race or color. Of course, there are cases when this is not true, but overall it is.

The definition I quoted has been around for over a century and there are old US newspaper articles where references were made to the 'Irish race' and the 'Italian race' or the 'British race.' You can search for them on the net if you need proof of this.

The point is that the word race can and does implies biological or cultural aspects, and one type doesn't negates the other.

For example, if we look at African-Americans, is it an actual biological race or a cultural one? I think its more cultural since it includes a lot of mixed race individuals and naturally, if a person is mixed, then they are not wholly one thing and doesn't makes sense to consider them one thing. But they are considered one thing, because of their culture. This is why Alicia Keys is considered black in the US, despite she is visually whiter looking than anything else. Another case is Soledad O'Brien, who for all practical purposes looks white, but yet claims to be black, not even mixed, but black. Why? Culture, for the most part.

Americans tend to think that race dictates culture, so people are labelled accordingly and are expected to act in certain ways and like certain things, all based on their looks. Imagine a black guy listening, singing and dancing to Metal or Punk in public. He will be seen as the weirdest creature alive by many Americans, simply because his skin doesn't go with his cultural actions. That's suppose to be a 'white thing,' after all.
She is not African American by ancestry. She is Afro-Cuban and white Australian (Irish), and, being obviously nonwhite, of African ancestry and American-born, she identifies as a black Latina. I see nothing wrong with it.
 
Old 10-10-2012, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antma robel View Post
And everything you said above is only a confirmation of my point of view. Brazil, for instance, has a important contribution from Black Africa ( culture and DNA ). Therefore, Brazil is not just Latin
Brazil is a triracial nation, culturally an Afro-Latin land. Africa has influence over all aspects of the culture.
 
Old 10-10-2012, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lame_excuse View Post
It's annoying. I have maybe some European ancestry in me, so I'd be considered a mestizo. In other words, I'm also Native American. But nooooooo, I can't put Native American 'cause of my family origins, so I'm "Hispanic/Latino."

It's politics and ignorance.
You can put Native American and Hispanic/Latino. The Census form has allowances for race and ethnicity (Hispanic/Latino).
 
Old 10-10-2012, 02:15 PM
 
2,890 posts, read 5,538,673 times
Reputation: 4623
Latino and Hispanic are ethnicity types and not race types. Latino and Hispanics are not the same either; Latino have origins in Latin America, Hispanics are of Hispania descent (Spain).

I tend to see the term "black" as a racial description, whereas "African-American" is an ethnic description. I would consider a dark skinned person from Ireland who is now an American citizen as a Black Irish-American. You could also see a fair skinned person from South Africa - as a White African-American.

We tend to confuse color, race, and ethnicity.
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