Caribbean-Americans: An Invisible Minority Seeking Identity And Affirmation (best, country, people)
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The bold is the key. Those Caribbean people who would like to identify together certainly will. Indo and Afro descended populations share plenty culture and generally have no issue being Caribbean/West Indian together while identifying their particular heritage. Now, if you personally take issue with marking a box that includes Caribbean people of a heritage different than yours, then you don't have to do it. However, plenty Caribbean people of African & Indian descent in my circles would have no problem with it.
The issue is that the US census cannot develop an identity based on how SOME people identify. Of what use will this data be? If some Caribbean people want to self identify as a generic Caribbean peoples (and then proceed to engage in an argument about who is a Caribbean person.....as we have seen throughout this thread) the US Census isnt stopping them.
But the US Census cannot allow 200 different classifications, based upon how some people may wish to identify. IF Caribbean people get their category then the Arabs will want it (they have already asked) and also countless other groups, like the Garifuna. The census form will be pages and pages, once the various cross sectoral analyses based on each group, are done,
Remember that this data is used mainly to allow comparable analyses to be done of each particular grouping. So how will one assess the socio economic status based on household income, home ownership, education attained, etc if some people identify and others of that grouping do not?
And I know loads of Guyanese Indians who will be enraged if you called them "Caribbean". They see it like calling them "black". Indeed among Guyanese those of Indian origin fit into the USA, based on family structure, home ownership, occupation, laborforce participation, and residence, very differently from those of African descent, who more closely mirror blacks from the Anglophone Caribbean.
Indeed many Indo Caribbean people want an Indo-Caribbean category, given that they do not see themselves as fitting into either the "Asian Indian" category, nor a generic "Caribbean" category, which is likely to be populated mainly with those of African origin. And indeed many lament the notion that to be "Caribbean" is to be lost in an AfroCaribbean Sea, given that the vast majority of non Hispanic Caribbean people are of African descent (mainly or partially).
So it makes loads of sense for the category "Non Hispanic Black/African American" to be treated like Hispanic and Asian, with some subgroupings (Caribbean/Sub Saharan African). That is the most that you will get so its best to aim for that.
Caribbean Asians can check "Asian" and fill in the "other" category with their national origins. These populations are too small to get more than that.
The issue is that the US census cannot develop an identity based on how SOME people identify. Of what use will this data be? If some Caribbean people want to self identify as a generic Caribbean peoples (and then proceed to engage in an argument about who is a Caribbean person.....as we have seen throughout this thread) the US Census isnt stopping them.
But the US Census cannot allow 200 different classifications, based upon how some people may wish to identify. IF Caribbean people get their category then the Arabs will want it (they have already asked) and also countless other groups, like the Garifuna. The census form will be pages and pages, once the various cross sectoral analyses based on each group, are done,
Remember that this data is used mainly to allow comparable analyses to be done of each particular grouping. So how will one assess the socio economic status based on household income, home ownership, education attained, etc if some people identify and others of that grouping do not?
And I know loads of Guyanese Indians who will be enraged if you called them "Caribbean". They see it like calling them "black". Indeed among Guyanese those of Indian origin fit into the USA, based on family structure, home ownership, occupation, laborforce participation, and residence, very differently from those of African descent, who more closely mirror blacks from the Anglophone Caribbean.
Indeed many Indo Caribbean people want an Indo-Caribbean category, given that they do not see themselves as fitting into either the "Asian Indian" category, nor a generic "Caribbean" category, which is likely to be populated mainly with those of African origin. And indeed many lament the notion that to be "Caribbean" is to be lost in an AfroCaribbean Sea, given that the vast majority of non Hispanic Caribbean people are of African descent (mainly or partially).
So it makes loads of sense for the category "Non Hispanic Black/African American" to be treated like Hispanic and Asian, with some subgroupings (Caribbean/Sub Saharan African). That is the most that you will get so its best to aim for that.
Caribbean Asians can check "Asian" and fill in the "other" category with their national origins. These populations are too small to get more than that.
The Caribbean category would be ethnic, similar to the Hispanic category, and people would still indicate so-called racial background. No one said anything about 200 different classifications...LOL.
I do agree that it makes plenty sense to have a general African/Africans descended category with the opportunity to indicate whether African-American, African, Caribbean etc. Yes, Caribbean Asians do have an option already even though not specific.
However, I have no issue supporting this initiative because the outcome would be the very same...to allow Caribbean people of all backgrounds to be counted. That way we would be aware of the actual size of our community, regardless of particular ethnic heritage.
The Caribbean category would be ethnic, similar to the Hispanic category, and people would still indicate so-called racial background. No one said anything about 200 different classifications...LOL.
I do agree that it makes plenty sense to have a general African/Africans descended category with the opportunity to indicate whether African-American, African, Caribbean etc. Yes, Caribbean Asians do have an option already even though not specific.
However, I have no issue supporting this initiative because the outcome would be the very same...to allow Caribbean people of all backgrounds to be counted. That way we would be aware of the actual size of our community, regardless of particular ethnic heritage.
The US Census will not have a separate Caribbean ethnic category. So why do people bother. Why not demand that the category "black" is not only African American, but also includes people born in the Caribbean and Sub Saharan Africa, and their immiediate descendants.
If Caribbean people demand a separate grouping then many others will, starting with the Arabs. As we speak many obect to being classified as "white", especially given the widespread post 9/11 abuse taht they face. I will argue that they have more of a point than we do. And many others want the same. Indeed, based upon what I see on NY colege campuses some Indo Guyanese will want a separate "Guyanese" category as they do not want to be linked to Jamaicans or Haitians and accept the fact that Asian Indians often do not include them.
The US census cannt make every one happy.
If some one wants to collect data they kjust go to the various groupings where Caribbean people are counted (how ever they wish to define who a Caribbean person is).
The US Census will not have a separate Caribbean ethnic category. So why do people bother. Why not demand that the category "black" is not only African American, but also includes people born in the Caribbean and Sub Saharan Africa, and their immiediate descendants.
If Caribbean people demand a separate grouping then many others will, starting with the Arabs. As we speak many obect to being classified as "white", especially given the widespread post 9/11 abuse taht they face. I will argue that they have more of a point than we do. And many others want the same. Indeed, based upon what I see on NY colege campuses some Indo Guyanese will want a separate "Guyanese" category as they do not want to be linked to Jamaicans or Haitians and accept the fact that Asian Indians often do not include them.
The US census cannt make every one happy.
If some one wants to collect data they just go to the various groupings where Caribbean people are counted (how ever they wish to define who a Caribbean person is).
Perhaps your question should be directed to those directly involved in the CaribID initiative, namely Ms. Persaud. However, from reading the article and doing a little research, you would find that Ms. Persaud is likely of both Indo-Caribbean and Afro-Caribbean heritage (name alone should make one wonder). So it should not be surprising she may be more inclusive than you (and many others).
Arab-Americans have already demanded a separate category and likely will continue to do so.
On NYC campuses, there are often so many Caribbean people that they may section off into individual cultures.
The US census is able to include whoever it pleases.
Perhaps your question should be directed to those directly involved in the CaribID initiative, namely Ms. Persaud. However, from reading the article and doing a little research, you would find that Ms. Persaud is likely of both Indo-Caribbean and Afro-Caribbean heritage (name alone should make one wonder). So it should not be surprising she may be more inclusive than you (and many others).
Arab-Americans have already demanded a separate category and likely will continue to do so.
On NYC campuses, there are often so many Caribbean people that they may section off into individual cultures.
The US census is able to include whoever it pleases.
I know that you believe that Caribbean people are super special and unique but they are not numerous enough (or powerful enough) in the US to bother with separating them out from the "black" category. And considering that most Caribbean people tend to assimilate into the African American population within a generation the overall effort is rather pointless. Outside of the NY and Miami areas, Caribbean people do not have the number to make an impact.
Perhaps your question should be directed to those directly involved in the CaribID initiative, namely Ms. Persaud. However, from reading the article and doing a little research, you would find that Ms. Persaud is likely of both Indo-Caribbean and Afro-Caribbean heritage (name alone should make one wonder). So it should not be surprising she may be more inclusive than you (and many others).
Arab-Americans have already demanded a separate category and likely will continue to do so.
On NYC campuses, there are often so many Caribbean people that they may section off into individual cultures.
The US census is able to include whoever it pleases.
I actually happen to know her. She is IndoGuyanese but has a very strong pan (Anglo) Caribbean identity. She not the norm in this (at least not at the immigrant generation level) and I have heard lots of very vulgar comments lobbied against her by many IndoGuyanese. I actually do admire her for her actions.
The reality is that the Indo Caribbean community has very very very very few ties with the Afro(Anglo) Caribbean community and any one who tries to peddle that notion is not being true to themselves, what ever their PERSONAL situation might be. I do not know whether she does, or in fact whether she is trying to construct such ties with her various projects.
Indeed much as many AfroCaribbean people battle to be seen in terms of themselves, and not made invisible within African American spaces, so too do many Indo Caribbean people battle to not be forced into an AfroCaribbean dominated space.
I will submit that there is more to differentiate Indo and Afro Caribbean people from each other than what divides Afro Caribeban people from African Americans. And indeed there are many Caribbean Indians who think that "douglarization" (an insult thrown at her by several Indo Guyanese) amounts to ethnocultural genocide.
Persaud raises a valid issue that it is hard to get specific marketing (socioeconomic or numeric) data on the Caribbean community. Which is why I endorse a modification of the "AfricanAmerican/Black" box to allow it to be further divided into American, Caribbean,subSaharan African in the same way as Hispanics and Asians are able to further define their identity. Even though this might lead to confusion among many US born blacks of immigrant origin, it will be of interest to separate out those who self identify based on their parents/grandparents nationality/ethnicity, from those who self identify with AAs.
The reality is that while many non Hispanic Caribbean origin/descended people are not of African descent the vast majority are. The US Census cannot pick up every single form of identity, which is why "Other" exists. I already mentioned howdata on Indo Caribbean people might be captured.
And like you I do not see that the US Census should be an obstacle/help to those who wish to pursue a pan Caribbean ID linking all linguistic groups and ethnicities. That goal will nly be acheived by building institutions which unite these groups.
I know that you believe that Caribbean people are super special and unique but they are not numerous enough (or powerful enough) in the US to bother with separating them out from the "black" category. And considering that most Caribbean people tend to assimilate into the African American population within a generation the overall effort is rather pointless. Outside of the NY and Miami areas, Caribbean people do not have the number to make an impact.
I dont know if you know this but black immigrants, and their kids are now about 10% of the non hispanic black community. This is 4,000,000 people, 70% of whom are Caribbean origin.
Caribbean people have had tremendous impcat on our elections as FL is a swing state and Caribbean blacks (together with Puerto Ricans) have played a major role in moving that state to become a reliably swing state. aIn NY the black population would have collapsed without black immigrants. NY being the 3rd largest state by population. So these two states alone are important.
GA is another state to watch as well as VA. The black immigrant populations are more dispersed so less visible.
I actually happen to know her. She is IndoGuyanese but has a very strong pan (Anglo) Caribbean identity. She not the norm in this (at least not at the immigrant generation level) and I have heard lots of very vulgar comments lobbied against her by many IndoGuyanese. I actually do admire her for her actions.
The reality is that the Indo Caribbean community has very very very very few ties with the Afro(Anglo) Caribbean community and any one who tries to peddle that notion is not being true to themselves, what ever their PERSONAL situation might be. I do not know whether she does, or in fact whether she is trying to construct such ties with her various projects.
Indeed much as many AfroCaribbean people battle to be seen in terms of themselves, and not made invisible within African American spaces, so too do many Indo Caribbean people battle to not be forced into an AfroCaribbean dominated space.
I will submit that there is more to differentiate Indo and Afro Caribbean people from each other than what divides Afro Caribeban people from African Americans. And indeed there are many Caribbean Indians who think that "douglarization" (an insult thrown at her by several Indo Guyanese) amounts to ethnocultural genocide.
Persaud raises a valid issue that it is hard to get specific marketing (socioeconomic or numeric) data on the Caribbean community. Which is why I endorse a modification of the "AfricanAmerican/Black" box to allow it to be further divided into American, Caribbean,subSaharan African in the same way as Hispanics and Asians are able to further define their identity. Even though this might lead to confusion among many US born blacks of immigrant origin, it will be of interest to separate out those who self identify based on their parents/grandparents nationality/ethnicity, from those who self identify with AAs.
The reality is that while many non Hispanic Caribbean origin/descended people are not of African descent the vast majority are. The US Census cannot pick up every single form of identity, which is why "Other" exists. I already mentioned howdata on Indo Caribbean people might be captured.
And like you I do not see that the US Census should be an obstacle/help to those who wish to pursue a pan Caribbean ID linking all linguistic groups and ethnicities. That goal will nly be acheived by building institutions which unite these groups.
How strange. If in fact you do know her, then there was no reason to act as though you did not understand the thrust of the initiative. Apparently, Persaud and you do not have the same perspective, and you are just as much against identifying with Indo-Caribbean people like her as much as many of them may have as well. Once again, the initiative allows for identification with African or Indian heritage among any others. So that complaint is nonsensical. Regardless, I see no issue with supporting her initiative.
Are you Trinidadian, Guyanese or another Caribbean group?
I know that you believe that Caribbean people are super special and unique but they are not numerous enough (or powerful enough) in the US to bother with separating them out from the "black" category. And considering that most Caribbean people tend to assimilate into the African American population within a generation the overall effort is rather pointless. Outside of the NY and Miami areas, Caribbean people do not have the number to make an impact.
That is your opinion as it is not your heritage to preserve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
I dont know if you know this but black immigrants, and their kids are now about 10% of the non hispanic black community. This is 4,000,000 people, 70% of whom are Caribbean origin.
Caribbean people have had tremendous impcat on our elections as FL is a swing state and Caribbean blacks (together with Puerto Ricans) have played a major role in moving that state to become a reliably swing state. aIn NY the black population would have collapsed without black immigrants. NY being the 3rd largest state by population. So these two states alone are important.
GA is another state to watch as well as VA. The black immigrant populations are more dispersed so less visible.
How strange. If in fact you do know her, then there was no reason to act as though you did not understand the thrust of the initiative. Apparently, Persaud and you do not have the same perspective, and you are just as much against identifying with Indo-Caribbean people like her as much as many of them may have as well. Once again, the initiative allows for identification with African or Indian heritage among any others. So that complaint is nonsensical. Regardless, I see no issue with supporting her initiative.
Are you Trinidadian, Guyanese or another Caribbean group?
Persaud and I do not have the same perspective, though I understand and respect her motivations.
The FACT is that the vast majority of Indo Caribbean people will be highly hostile to an Afro Caribbean person like me insisting that they should identify as being part of some undifferentiated group. Indo Caribbean people who advocate this (almost always young intellectuals who exist outside of these communities) are considered to be some sort of Uncle Tom by large numbers of Indo Caribbean people.
Its not what I feel. It is what I know about how most Indo Caribbean people feel and, as some one who moves around the Caribbean community in NYC, there is more interaction at a social level between Afro (Anglo and Haitian) Caribbean blacks than there is with either Hispanic Caribbean people, with Indo Caribbean people being the most distant. You ought to hear the discussions which emerge within Guyanese groups about this ethnic divide. I suspect that most have given up trying to bridge it.
Even in liberal Trinidad there is a strong and vocal resistance from mnay more traditional Indians about steel pan and Carnival. And opinions expressed towards the Indian females who participate in it. Guyana and Suriname are way more ethnically divided so those views are more entrenched.
What I do know is that a category called "Caribbean" with further breakdown into "African", "Indian", and "other" will not happen. Why waste time with what will not happen when another solution, which at least partially addresses the problem of under identification of Caribbean people in official data, exists?
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