Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
without a doubt in places where colonialists still rule. without some white guilt of which france still has some
, life is very rough in the caribbean.
Last edited by Huckleberry3911948; 07-22-2013 at 07:45 PM..
White? Since when are First Nations people considered White?
I am Inuit by birth - I have seen racism first hand since I was old enuf to hold a fishing spear. I was told by RCMP - I wasn't worth anything to anybody. The US is just another racist nation to anyone who isn't Russian, German or English. Canada is slightly better, but I choose to live in BVI.
...What are you talking about? Your response to my post makes no sense..
Colombia is a very big place. Some places there I assure you have major racial problems (such as Medellin), but in other areas things are much more tolerant.
With that said, here's what happened to this black Colombian in Bogota, the capital of that country (there aren't many blacks of any place, much less black Colombians, in Bogota. In fact, most blacks live along the Caribbean and Pacific coasts of the country. Most of the blacks that live in Bogota are "costenos" meaning from the coasts.)
The video is in Spanish, so...
Basically, the guy is explaining how he was not allowed into a club and when he asked the guard why not, the guard simply said that no blacks were allowed and apparently he said it just like that. In other clubs the bouncers claimed it was a "private party" (he asked other non-blacks that were in line if they were invited to the private party and people responded "what private party" and then he saw how the bouncer allowed them in) and in others that it was only for "members."
Lets not generalize a whole country or even the whole city of Bogota for this. In fact, he did said that there are areas of the city with clubs that have no racial issues and also there are clubs where blacks frequent more often.
What this video does shows is that racist crap does sometimes happens.
The video is a very interesting one, and perhaps is part of the reason I would say that, apart from Panama, Colombia is one of the few places that I would say treats Blacks "well."
I say that because Black Colombians KNOW that they are black. There is a sense of pride or self-acceptance that is lacking in, say, Dominicans. For this, I would put them above Dominicans in treatment of blacks because, although you may see a "black" Dominican judge, said judge will not see himself as black and therefor his progress really is negated as far as progress for Afro-descendents may go. I hope I am making sense. From what I've seen, black Colombians, like black Panamanians and Americans, accept, know, and enjoy being black. You don't see that as strongly in places like Peru or other places. Brazil is a very mixed bag, from people speaking fluent Yoruba in the country, to the nation having a phrase like "one foot in the kitchen" to signify that the person has black ancestry!
Also, Colombia has a whole host of organizations and such that focus on Afro-colombian culture. Granted, blacks there are more often than not poor, but I would still say they are treated better there than, say, Peru, which is ASTONISHINGLY racist (from what I've heard), or the DR, where "no tiene negros"
In Colombia it really depends where you are in the country. In places like Bogota, where there are few blacks and black-white mixed people, most of the people there consider blacks and black/white mixes as blacks. So I think there even mixed people will consider themselves black. In places like Cartagena, which is on the coast, there is more of a differentiation between the blacks and the black/white mixed race group and you might be hard pressed to see a black/white mixed person from the coast say they are black. The exception might be those that lived in places like Bogota for a while.
It really depends on the local power dynamics and usually, in places where mulattoes have a very large presence, those places -regardless if its a region in a country as is the case in Colombia or entire countries as is the case with Dominican Republic- usually have a strong sense of not being black, but rather mixed. I personally think it has to do with the culture, because if mixed people are numerous enough, then they will and often do influence the entire culture and even the white minority and other types of minorities will have, even if they deny it, a heavy mulatto influence in their own culture. This is when you see completely white people practicing African religion or enjoying very mixed musical styles that have an obvious African beat and they do it naturally, and often times are not even aware they are practicing something of full or partial African origin.
Also the level of discrimination probably explain the differences too. There's probably more anti-mulatto/black discrimination in Bogota than in Cartagena, so the mulattoes in Bogota might identify more with blacks because they are treated as if they were blacks, more or less similar to what happened in the USA. In places where mulattoes are not treated as if they are black, even if they are discriminated against but not the extent as blacks are, then the mulattoes will not have an incentive to identify with blacks because they are not black and they are never forced to or are treated as if they were.
I once read an essay written by a mixed race person from Cartagena explaining his experience in Bogota and he said something like "back in Cartagena I'm a mulatto, but in Bogota I'm simply black" and then went to on to explain the discrimination. I'll see if I find it, because I read it online.
In Colombia it really depends where you are in the country. In places like Bogota, where there are few blacks and black-white mixed people, most of the people there consider blacks and black/white mixes as blacks. So I think there even mixed people will consider themselves black. In places like Cartagena, which is on the coast, there is more of a differentiation between the blacks and the black/white mixed race group and you might be hard pressed to see a black/white mixed person from the coast say they are black. The exception might be those that lived in places like Bogota for a while.
It really depends on the local power dynamics and usually, in places where mulattoes have a very large presence, those places -regardless if its a region in a country as is the case in Colombia or entire countries as is the case with Dominican Republic- usually have a strong sense of not being black, but rather mixed. I personally think it has to do with the culture, because if mixed people are numerous enough, then they will and often do influence the entire culture and even the white minority and other types of minorities will have, even if they deny it, a heavy mulatto influence in their own culture. This is when you see completely white people practicing African religion or enjoying very mixed musical styles that have an obvious African beat and they do it naturally, and often times are not even aware they are practicing something of full or partial African origin.
Also the level of discrimination probably explain the differences too. There's probably more anti-mulatto/black discrimination in Bogota than in Cartagena, so the mulattoes in Bogota might identify more with blacks because they are treated as if they were blacks, more or less similar to what happened in the USA. In places where mulattoes are not treated as if they are black, even if they are discriminated against but not the extent as blacks are, then the mulattoes will not have an incentive to identify with blacks because they are not black and they are never forced to or are treated as if they were.
I once read an essay written by a mixed race person from Cartagena explaining his experience in Bogota and he said something like "back in Cartagena I'm a mulatto, but in Bogota I'm simply black" and then went to on to explain the discrimination. I'll see if I find it, because I read it online.
Please do find it. I'd love to read about it!
The Dominican Republic is perhaps not the best example. They see themselves as not black at all, not even mixed. Mixed to them means what mestizo is (White + Indian). No "black" there...
I'm not sure I agree with your second paragraph either. Look at the US, for example. Hip hop, Jazz, Rock and Roll, American music in general has an obvious afro-element, yet everyone listens to it. There are white people in the South that practice voodoo. I think it has more to do with simple mixing of people than some sort of "mulatto identity." When you get people together, things stick and other things fade away. In the case of the Afro influence in the New World, the definite "sticker" was music/dance/culture. Everywhere that had slaves has that mark, not just the DR or specific parts of Colombia. The two most popular genres in the US both have obvious black influences: Hip-hop and Country. Compare this to popular Canadian music. It has less bass, less drums, it's less black to be honest. Its just due to the ingredients of the country, nothing to do with some sort of mulatto mindset.
You find this same sort of "mulatto is not black" thing in the US as well. In the south there is a distinction, but in the Northeast it is more set (although, most people subscribe to the one-drop rule, as President Obama can attest to).
Even so, all of that still highlights that there is a black consciousness/acceptance within the country. Something that is missing in some other countries. When I read about anything Black in the New World, the US, Brazil, and Colombia are the three that always come up. Granted, because they have the three largest black populations in the New World, but also because the governments have made more strides than all others in helping their black populations.
When I find it, I'll post it here and send you a copy via private message, just to make sure you read it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DginnDoctor
The Dominican Republic is perhaps not the best example. They see themselves as not black at all, not even mixed. Mixed to them means what mestizo is (White + Indian). No "black" there...
Hm, this doesn't really corresponds with my experience with Dominicans and visiting their country. There is this whole 'they claim there are no black Dominicans' thing on the internet, but in reality I've met many Dominicans from various social levels in the USA and in the DR that have said there are black Dominicans. They were the one's that pointed to me the fact that in every census ever taken in the country, the black category has always been in double digits. So obviously someone is calling themselves black over there. Also in most Dominican music genres there is plenty of mention of beautiful black this and my sexy black woman that, I prefer a dark morena here, I dream of my moreno there, and so on. What they hardly say is that the DR is a black country, on that they make it clear its a mixed race country and, for the most part, it is.
They do make a marked differentiation with the Haitians, but all one has to do is see what the average Haitian living in the DR looks like and then look at the average Dominican. The mixture in the average Dominican literally jumps at you when you compare them to the average Haitian, especially if you spend sometime first in Haiti and then go to the DR. The average Dominican is not only much lighter than the typical Haitian, but there is also much greater variety in hair types, facial features, etc. among Dominicans; while in Haiti its much more homogenous and of 'purer' West African origin. The typical Dominican extended family has a vast range of skin colors, features from very white looking to very black and almost every mixture in between. This is not really as prevalent in extended Haitian families, at least the differences in colors, features, etc is not as varied or as pronounced; except maybe among the mulatto upper class Haitian families.
Its easy to misunderstand Dominican's insistence on their racial mixture when arriving from the USA, because in the USA there are many mixed race people that simply say they are black for historical/cultural reasons within the US context. But once you go to Haiti or not even go there, simply notice the difference within the DR itself in the neighborhoods where Haitians congregate and then how the people look where Dominicans are a majority, and it becomes clear why they say they are mixed; its because for the most part, they are.
A similar thing happens in Haiti itself, but over there the mixed race population makes up only 5% of the population and most of them are concentrated in the upper class, so the Haitian mixed people insistence on their mixed ancestry goes mostly unnoticed to many. This contrast with the DR where 70-80% of the population actually has mixed racial origins.
Dominicans sometimes use the word mestizo to mean mixed race, not necessarily white/indian only. They also use mulatto (gaining more acceptance in the general population and is practically universal among the college educated ones) and the going out of style indio which was applied mostly to mulattoes during the Trujillo dictatorship.
At least most Dominicans I've met are aware they are a mixed people. They even have a saying that says "todos tenemos el negro detras de la oreja" which means "we all have the black behind the ears," meaning that all Dominicans are mixed, even most of the one's that look mostly white, and that mixture includes black African.
Everything else you said, I partially agree, but there is a difference between the African influence in mainstream US culture vs that in some Latin American countries. It seems that in Latin America its a much more pure and stronger African influence, while in the USA it seems much more diluted.
Blacks should AVOID Colombia for sure! Because they are treated almost like modern day slaves.
The BEST area for blacks is Salvador BAHIA in Brazil.
That's not true. I am black (well, I am biracial which I guess is mulatto) and I went to Colombia one spring break with my female Colombian friend. She is bisexual. During my 2 week stay there, we stayed in Santa Marta, Bogota, and Bucaramanga. We were hauling in women by the boatloads. I don't know if I have kids, because I was going raw on my friend and on those girls my whole trip there. Immediately after I arrived home, I got tested for every disease known to man. Thankfully, there were none.
When I find it, I'll post it here and send you a copy via private message, just to make sure you read it.
Hm, this doesn't really corresponds with my experience with Dominicans and visiting their country. There is this whole 'they claim there are no black Dominicans' thing on the internet, but in reality I've met many Dominicans from various social levels in the USA and in the DR that have said there are black Dominicans. They were the one's that pointed to me the fact that in every census ever taken in the country, the black category has always been in double digits. So obviously someone is calling themselves black over there. Also in most Dominican music genres there is plenty of mention of beautiful black this and my sexy black woman that, I prefer a dark morena here, I dream of my moreno there, and so on. What they hardly say is that the DR is a black country, on that they make it clear its a mixed race country and, for the most part, it is.
They do make a marked differentiation with the Haitians, but all one has to do is see what the average Haitian living in the DR looks like and then look at the average Dominican. The mixture in the average Dominican literally jumps at you when you compare them to the average Haitian, especially if you spend sometime first in Haiti and then go to the DR. The average Dominican is not only much lighter than the typical Haitian, but there is also much greater variety in hair types, facial features, etc. among Dominicans; while in Haiti its much more homogenous and of 'purer' West African origin. The typical Dominican extended family has a vast range of skin colors, features from very white looking to very black and almost every mixture in between. This is not really as prevalent in extended Haitian families, at least the differences in colors, features, etc is not as varied or as pronounced; except maybe among the mulatto upper class Haitian families.
Its easy to misunderstand Dominican's insistence on their racial mixture when arriving from the USA, because in the USA there are many mixed race people that simply say they are black for historical/cultural reasons within the US context. But once you go to Haiti or not even go there, simply notice the difference within the DR itself in the neighborhoods where Haitians congregate and then how the people look where Dominicans are a majority, and it becomes clear why they say they are mixed; its because for the most part, they are.
A similar thing happens in Haiti itself, but over there the mixed race population makes up only 5% of the population and most of them are concentrated in the upper class, so the Haitian mixed people insistence on their mixed ancestry goes mostly unnoticed to many. This contrast with the DR where 70-80% of the population actually has mixed racial origins.
Dominicans sometimes use the word mestizo to mean mixed race, not necessarily white/indian only. They also use mulatto (gaining more acceptance in the general population and is practically universal among the college educated ones) and the going out of style indio which was applied mostly to mulattoes during the Trujillo dictatorship.
At least most Dominicans I've met are aware they are a mixed people. They even have a saying that says "todos tenemos el negro detras de la oreja" which means "we all have the black behind the ears," meaning that all Dominicans are mixed, even most of the one's that look mostly white, and that mixture includes black African.
Everything else you said, I partially agree, but there is a difference between the African influence in mainstream US culture vs that in some Latin American countries. It seems that in Latin America its a much more pure and stronger African influence, while in the USA it seems much more diluted.
Overall, I have to agree with this...and Dominicans are mixed people. From the lightest to the darkest, the I majority are mixed, and it usually shows somewhere in their appearance regardless of color. I don't see why the need to proclaim themselves a "black" country.
When I find it, I'll post it here and send you a copy via private message, just to make sure you read it.
Hm, this doesn't really corresponds with my experience with Dominicans and visiting their country. There is this whole 'they claim there are no black Dominicans' thing on the internet, but in reality I've met many Dominicans from various social levels in the USA and in the DR that have said there are black Dominicans. They were the one's that pointed to me the fact that in every census ever taken in the country, the black category has always been in double digits. So obviously someone is calling themselves black over there. Also in most Dominican music genres there is plenty of mention of beautiful black this and my sexy black woman that, I prefer a dark morena here, I dream of my moreno there, and so on. What they hardly say is that the DR is a black country, on that they make it clear its a mixed race country and, for the most part, it is.
They do make a marked differentiation with the Haitians, but all one has to do is see what the average Haitian living in the DR looks like and then look at the average Dominican. The mixture in the average Dominican literally jumps at you when you compare them to the average Haitian, especially if you spend sometime first in Haiti and then go to the DR. The average Dominican is not only much lighter than the typical Haitian, but there is also much greater variety in hair types, facial features, etc. among Dominicans; while in Haiti its much more homogenous and of 'purer' West African origin. The typical Dominican extended family has a vast range of skin colors, features from very white looking to very black and almost every mixture in between. This is not really as prevalent in extended Haitian families, at least the differences in colors, features, etc is not as varied or as pronounced; except maybe among the mulatto upper class Haitian families.
Its easy to misunderstand Dominican's insistence on their racial mixture when arriving from the USA, because in the USA there are many mixed race people that simply say they are black for historical/cultural reasons within the US context. But once you go to Haiti or not even go there, simply notice the difference within the DR itself in the neighborhoods where Haitians congregate and then how the people look where Dominicans are a majority, and it becomes clear why they say they are mixed; its because for the most part, they are.
A similar thing happens in Haiti itself, but over there the mixed race population makes up only 5% of the population and most of them are concentrated in the upper class, so the Haitian mixed people insistence on their mixed ancestry goes mostly unnoticed to many. This contrast with the DR where 70-80% of the population actually has mixed racial origins.
Dominicans sometimes use the word mestizo to mean mixed race, not necessarily white/indian only. They also use mulatto (gaining more acceptance in the general population and is practically universal among the college educated ones) and the going out of style indio which was applied mostly to mulattoes during the Trujillo dictatorship.
At least most Dominicans I've met are aware they are a mixed people. They even have a saying that says "todos tenemos el negro detras de la oreja" which means "we all have the black behind the ears," meaning that all Dominicans are mixed, even most of the one's that look mostly white, and that mixture includes black African.
Everything else you said, I partially agree, but there is a difference between the African influence in mainstream US culture vs that in some Latin American countries. It seems that in Latin America its a much more pure and stronger African influence, while in the USA it seems much more diluted.
I've never heard of this acceptance. I don't disbelieve you, as I'm sure there must exist, but I know, for example, my Dominican friend is the only one that she or I know that accepts her african roots. Not in a "I'm 100% Black" kind of way, she just accepts and acknowledges that there is obviously a black element in her family tree. Her family all says that they're Taino and Spaniard only. I mean, it's their choice to identify as such, it's just a little surprising coming from an American viewpoint. And sad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll
Interesting discussion.
Overall, I have to agree with this...and Dominicans are mixed people. From the lightest to the darkest, the I majority are mixed, and it usually shows somewhere in their appearance regardless of color. I don't see why the need to proclaim themselves a "black" country.
I'm not sure if this is in any way directed at me somehow, but I never said that they need to proclaim themselves a "black" country. It's obvious walking through anywhere in the Dominican Republic that they are a highly mixed group of people, as are most people from the Caribbean.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
