Do you think Puerto Rico should become a state? (vs, conditions, culture)
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Hawaii to U.S. mainland: 2,470 miles
Puerto Rico to U.S. mainland: 1,050 miles
Hawaii to Japan: 4,115 miles
Puerto Rico to South America: 816 miles.
Puerto Rico to Central America: 1,165 miles
Hawaii unemployment 4.3% Puerto Rico unemployment: 14%
Hawaii median household income: $66,260 Puerto Rico median household income: $19,320
again if the Jones Act is part of the problem of Puerto Rico's economy then Hawaii should be worse than P.R. because they are further away to any mainland. The Jones Act is not the problem in Puerto Rico.
This is my response to both of your posts...
1. The economies of Hawaii and PR are very different as are the demographics. Hawaii's per capita income is only $29k compared to PR's $15k. PR has a much more diversified economy and has the strongest economy in Latin America. Like ovcatto pointed out, nearly half of PR's GDP is manufacturing based. PR may be poor by US standards, but wealthy compared to any other nation in its region. Comparing them to Hawaii is like comparing oranges to pineapples.
2. The Jones Act is merely one issue that I touched on that holds down PR's economic prospects. The Jones Act is also equally hated in Hawaii, Alaska and Guam who all would like to see an exception made for their situation or the law repealed. The law generally hits PR the hardest, because it is so close to the mainland versus Hawaii. There is so much shipping in the Gulf and on the Eastern seaboard that shipping rates are extremely low. However, the Jones Act makes the cost of shipping to PR more than double the cost of shipping to Jamaica or the Dominican Republic. While Hawaii and Guam deal with the same US requirement, there is little obvious competition and those locations are far more removed from the mainland and regular shipping routes.
3. Products tend to be cheaper in PR than in other Latin countries, but are more expensive than they are in other US states on the mainland. The reason the products are more expensive in other Latin American countries isn't because of shipping costs, but because of tarriffs on the imports imposed by those countries. When it comes to cars, cars sell for the same MSRP in PR that they do on the mainland. You can buy a Chevy Malibu for the same price in Ohio that you do in PR.
4. The Jones Act served a very important purpose at one point in time, but has become a bit of a dinosaur with the rise of shipping pipelines for fuels and the interstate highway system and the omnipresent trucks moving along it. Almost all products in the US arrive at one of a handful of major ports before being loaded on a train or truck and sent to its final destination. The Jones Act helps preserve a form of US Merchant Marine and necessitates some limited ship building capability, but these industries exist only because the Jones Act requires it. We can debate how important that is, but it is very clear that only the non-contiguous US states and territories are really impacted by the law.
You mean requiring Puerto Rico to contribute to the system instead of remaining almost entirely dependent on it? Won't happen. They are getting a sweet deal right now, and there isn't enough motivation to carry their own weight.
Personally, I believe they should have been given their independence long ago, whether they wanted it or not. They are like the 35 year old child living in their parent's basement. Time to leave the nest and forge their own way in this world.
Yes. They're called the "welfare island" for a reason.
not copying and pasting what the P.R. government prints out, what % Puerto Rico produces if you take out all federal funds.
The manufacturing was heavily subsidized with Operation Bootstrap in the late 1940's. PR's economy has then been further subsidized since with additional tax incentives for companies locating there. These started to be phased out under the Clinton Administration. Regardless of the Federal incentives for manufacturing to have located there, that sector still makes up nearly 50% of the PR GDP which is well ahead of the rest of Latin America.
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Originally Posted by Delahanty
Yes. They're called the "welfare island" for a reason.
That was addressed already. Much of that has to do with the fact that the federal government does a poor job indexing the poverty rate to Latin American norms. Hence, being on social benefits is quite lucrative.
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I don't think that I or anyone else is arguing that everything is perfect with PR. I would say they are not nearly the horrible drain they are made out to be. At the end of the day, they are US citizens and I seriously doubt that independence will ever happen. Even if it did, the US will still have many obligations to PR. I personally think they should be made a state as many of the extant complaints people have would be eliminated.
1. The economies of Hawaii and PR are very different as are the demographics. Hawaii's per capita income is only $29k compared to PR's $15k. PR has a much more diversified economy and has the strongest economy in Latin America. Like ovcatto pointed out, nearly half of PR's GDP is manufacturing based. PR may be poor by US standards, but wealthy compared to any other nation in its region. Comparing them to Hawaii is like comparing oranges to pineapples.
2. The Jones Act is merely one issue that I touched on that holds down PR's economic prospects. The Jones Act is also equally hated in Hawaii, Alaska and Guam who all would like to see an exception made for their situation or the law repealed. The law generally hits PR the hardest, because it is so close to the mainland versus Hawaii. There is so much shipping in the Gulf and on the Eastern seaboard that shipping rates are extremely low. However, the Jones Act makes the cost of shipping to PR more than double the cost of shipping to Jamaica or the Dominican Republic. While Hawaii and Guam deal with the same US requirement, there is little obvious competition and those locations are far more removed from the mainland and regular shipping routes.
3. Products tend to be cheaper in PR than in other Latin countries, but are more expensive than they are in other US states on the mainland. The reason the products are more expensive in other Latin American countries isn't because of shipping costs, but because of tarriffs on the imports imposed by those countries. When it comes to cars, cars sell for the same MSRP in PR that they do on the mainland. You can buy a Chevy Malibu for the same price in Ohio that you do in PR.
4. The Jones Act served a very important purpose at one point in time, but has become a bit of a dinosaur with the rise of shipping pipelines for fuels and the interstate highway system and the omnipresent trucks moving along it. Almost all products in the US arrive at one of a handful of major ports before being loaded on a train or truck and sent to its final destination. The Jones Act helps preserve a form of US Merchant Marine and necessitates some limited ship building capability, but these industries exist only because the Jones Act requires it. We can debate how important that is, but it is very clear that only the non-contiguous US states and territories are really impacted by the law.
1) Puerto Rico has a strong economy compare to Latin American because its a U.S. territory and P.R. benefits from the U.S. dollar and federal aid and guaranteed loans from the federal government. I really doubt Puerto Rico would have any advantage over latin republics if you take out that from the equation.
2) Like I said, producst in all islands in the world are more expensive than the mainland in any continent. All countries especially our main competitors have their own protective version of the Jones act. You forgot to mention that protects jobs and salaries to our ports because it will never be outsourced to 3rd world countries that don't play by our same rules and standards.
3) you wrote:
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shipping to PR more than double the cost of shipping to Jamaica or the Dominican Republic
let's knock down false myths one by one: (and I will write to you this in spanish and if you want I can translated in english if you can't understand spanish well. I have to keep practicing my Spanish, Im surrounded by too many gringos here, )
. Hay varios sitios donde buscar, pero el foro de Bidux es un buen sitio a empezar. Forum - Bidux LLC Mirando en el, se da cuenta de que un furgón de 40’ de largo cuesta $4,275 dólares a San Juan desde Newark. Los “expertos” les dicen que el mismo furgón de NY a Holanda cuesta $2,500 (dos veces más lejos), y que de NY a sitios en Arabia cuesta también $2,500. (Decimos NY, pero es en verdad Newark)
Lo que no les dicen, es que se trata de competencia, no de costos. Europa-NY y Asia-NY son mercados en donde se usan los barcos mas grandes (es decir, más eficientes), y en donde se compite más. NY-PR simplemente no es un mercado de gran significado (léase abajo, sobre el mito del efecto de la economía de PR en el de EEUU). Por eso es que cuando busca NY-RD (casi la misma distancia a Santo Domingo), ¡cuesta $4,020! Si, a PR es mas caro, pero por $200 (apenas 5% mas), no la mitad de precio de los otros mercados inmensos.
y cuando esos productos entran a R.D. y Jamaica los gobiernos le meten un tarifa alta que al final los productos son mas caros en R.D. y Jamaica que en P.R.....Dime cuanto de cuesta un Lexus o un simple Toyota nuevo en R.D. y Jamaica y compara con P.R. .....(la mayoria en esos paises no lo pueden comparar porque estan bien caros)
Oferta y demanda es, de la misma forma, por que es baratísimo ir de BOS/NYC a Londres. En termino de Costo/milla, a veces de 1/3 a ½ de lo que cuesta ir a PR. La misma razón, una económica, no una de leyes de cabotaje.
Porque la verdadera pregunta, la que NADIE hace en PR, es; ¿Por qué si los costos son apenas de 5% a 10% más, el precio es hasta 35% más?). Y la contestación es sencilla, vivir en un Isla cuesta más, pero proteger los monopolios “de facto” de ciertas personas y familias cuesta muchísimo más.
4) We have to agree to disagree about the Jones Act........if all countries get rid of their protection laws and all play by the same rules and standards then you have a point but they don't.
In this global economy you are asking the United States to tie 2 hands behind their backs while countries like China don't play by the same rules and standards and they do have their own protective maritime laws to protect their ports and economy.
There is a reason why PORT and Maritime UNIONS in the U.S. are against getting rid of the Jones act, it will put them at a disadvantage that will lower wages and raise unemployment in all states and territories with ports.
There is an old Chinese saying, "Beware of what you wish for".
1) Puerto Rico has a strong economy compare to Latin American because its a U.S. territory and P.R. benefits from the U.S. dollar and federal aid and guaranteed loans from the federal government. I really doubt Puerto Rico would have any advantage over latin republics if you take out that from the equation.
Modern PR would most likely continue to have an advantage solely because of the extensive investment already made. However, it is indisputable that they have a distinct advantage being a US territory. Much of this would evaporate if they were made fully independent.
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2) Like I said, producst in all islands in the world are more expensive than the mainland in any continent. All countries especially our main competitors have their own protective version of the Jones act. You forgot to mention that protects jobs and salaries to our ports because it will never be outsourced to 3rd world countries that don't play by our same rules and standards.
Of course island products are more expensive, that wasn't argued. What was argued was the degree of impact shipping costs had on products in PR that drive the cost even higher compared to other similar destinations.
As for the Jones Act, it protects an extremely small industry that is virtually dedicated to shipping some bulk LNG and taking products to PR, Hawaii, Alaska and Guam. There is very little interstate commerce that goes from port-to-port within the US where the act applies.
let's knock down false myths one by one: (and I will write to you this in spanish and if you want I can translated in english if you can't understand spanish well. I have to keep practicing my Spanish, Im surrounded by too many gringos here, )
According to the New York Federal Reserve as quoted in the article above, it is...
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It costs an estimated $3,063 to ship a twenty-foot container of household and commercial goods from the East Coast of the United States to Puerto Rico; the same shipment costs $1,504 to nearby Santo Domingo (Dominican Republic) and $1,687 to Kingston (Jamaica)—destinations that are not subject to Jones Act restrictions….
Shipping goods to and from Puerto Rico costs considerably more than shipping to and from the Island’s regional peers, imposing an important cost on Puerto Rican businesses and dampening the economy’s competitiveness. Much of this relatively high cost of shipping is widely attributed to the Jones Act.
Now, I will take the analysis of the New York Federal Reserve branch over random postings on Bidux. As for the Spanish part, I don't speak Spanish, so I used a translator. Your first point is that more competitive routes have lower prices. You referenced rates to the Middle East and Europe from Port Newark versus Port Newark to PR. You are correct that more heavily travelled routes will have cheaper prices, however that isn't the correct comparison. Comapre the costs of shipping to Jamaica or Dominican Republic versus to PR and you will see the impact of the Jones Act as highlighted by the NYFR. The rest of your statements are basically agreeing that consumer products cost more on the other islands do to import tarriffs, especially on luxury goods. You end it by reiterating that living on islands cost more especially when the costs have to support monopolies and connected families. I agree with the "living on an island costs more", but I cannot agree that cabotage laws have zero impact on PR.
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4) We have to agree to disagree about the Jones Act........if all countries get rid of their protection laws and all play by the same rules and standards then you have a point but they don't.
In this global economy you are asking the United States to tie 2 hands behind their backs while countries like China don't play by the same rules and standards and they do have their own protective maritime laws to protect their ports and economy.
There is a reason why PORT and Maritime UNIONS in the U.S. are against getting rid of the Jones act, it will put them at a disadvantage that will lower wages and raise unemployment in all states and territories with ports.
The reason they are against the repeal is that their entire industry only exists because the Jones Act necessitates it. It's not even the port workers that are the main issue, but the requirement of US built, flagged, owned, insured and crewed ships that makes the cost so much higher. Given the limited scope of the industry it is not even an issue that would impact the vast majority of Americans. If the Jones Act required any imports to the US to be carried on US ships, then it would be different. As it is, all it does is protect a very small industry at the expense of the people on Hawaii, PR, Guam and Alaska. I fail to see how its repeal would have a major impact on the US as our maritime industry is completely non-competitive anyway.
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There is an old Chinese saying, "Beware of what you wish for".
What would the result of the repeal of the Jones Act be? What would happen if we simply waived the requirement for PR, Hawaii, Guam and Alaska?
As for Puerto Rico "taking" from the U.S.... well that's more than ironic. In 1897 Puerto Rico after more than 400 years of rebelling against Spanish rule achieved a significant degree of independence from Spain which was abrogated when the U.S. claimed dominion over the Island in 1898. The Puerto Rican's argued that the Island was not Spain's to cede but the U.S. promptly ignored that, instead taking control of Puerto Rico and installing a U.S. governor over the "territory" the same governor, Charles Herbert Allen who installed himself as president of the American Sugar Refining Company (Domino Sugar) which by 1930 Domino alone owned 40 percent of all arable land which was promptly converted into sugar production. Of course this doesn't include the fact that Allen along with his financial backers owned every foot of track and the San Juan international seaport. None of which was used to develop and indigenous economy.
I suppose this is a chronic problem with conservatives, a myopic view of history which allows persons so disposed to look upon their own wreckage, turn away and boldly discount those left behind for not properly cleaning up the mess.
So far the Puerto Rico Status Resolution Act has yet to make it out of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee despite having broad bi-partisan support. The Act would pay for a less ambiguous plebiscite than the referendum held in 2012. The bill, if passed by the Congress would call for a national referendum to either vote for or against statehood. If Puerto Ricans vote in favor of statehood, the President will be required to submit a resolution admitting Puerto Rico as a state within 180 days of the vote.
What is interesting however is that there is nothing in the bill that would resolve Puerto Rico's permanent status which has been a contentious and sometimes violent issue for decades. Another interesting provision of the bill is that Puerto Ricans will automatically be granted native born citizenship upon admission.
To me, the sticking point would be language. Would we suddenly have to become a bilingual country in order to accommodate 3 million Puerto Ricans? Meanwhile, Guam, Samoa, and the Virgin Islands use English sufficiently to become states in my opinion.
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