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Ding ding ding ... the independence movement has been dead since Luis Munoz Marin came along and replaced fantasy with reality. The Alaskan Independence Party gets a larger % of the vote than all of the pro-independence parties combined in Puerto Rico. In the 2012 election the three pro-independence parties combined got a whopping total of 4.6% of the vote ... in comparison the two pro-unionist parties got 94.9%.
Ive been to the PR Day Parade and most of the people in the parade and watching the parade are NOT Puerto Ricans. They are mixed race Nuyoricans who are more Black than Puerto Rican. 95% of them can't even speak Spanish, find Puerto Rico on a map, or even tell you what region of the world Puerto Rico is in. It's absurd.
So if they are of Afro-Puerto Rican descent from the island as in their African ancestors were enslaved on the rock that does not count as PR? Your statement is so exemplary of those who exclude Black people from Puerto Rican identity on the island and outside of it. I guess that's why Tego says he's Black before PR, even on the isla.
Both countries imported large amounts of West Indian migrants, and their influence are still ingrained in the countries today. Both, Panama and Costa Rica, have their own English dialects. Also, you can find plenty of English surnames in both countries.
(Speaking in general) Hmm, people seem to be conflating Anglo solely with West Indian, but you should specify or seperate the two because there is lots go influences that creep or make their ways into various Latin American nations. Also keep in mind that Caribbean or West Indian does not automatically mean black.
In Panama and other Latin American countries there were many people from the English speaking or owned Caribbean islands that went to Latin American nations. For example, in Panama a significant portion of the Jewish community in Panama are descendants of Sephardi Jews (Jews from Spain & Portugal) that have lived ALL throughout the Caribbean islands and nations dating back to the year 1492. Most of these Sephardim were "white looking". Many people of South Asian, East Indian, Chinese descents and others that had lived in the Caribbean migrated to Panama too. In the case of the many Sephardim Jews from English speaking countries that migrated to Spanish speaking and Latin American countries, many were multilingual and multicultural so they could blend in, in almost ALL societies. Many were and still are successful in commerce, trade, business, law, politics and economics and much more. In countries like Panama, they are pretty much like a "dominant minority". Panama is the only country to date outside of Israel that has had at least 2 Jewish presidents. Interestingly enough, these two Panamanian Jews that were presidents of Panama are descendants of Sephardi Jews with roots and ties to the West Indies. Both are related as the first Jewish president of Panama was Max Devalle and later on after his nephew Eric Arturo Devalle became the second Jewish president of Panama
So people have to be careful with equating West Indian or Caribbean automatically with "black" and/or automatically as "Anglo".
It would be interesting to see you do a thread on dique Caribbean and/or West Indian contributions or influences to Latin America. When you think about it, the histories of the Western Hemisphere and Americas is mutually tied to each other although the globe is tied to each other because trade and migration has figuratively and literally been global since the year 1492.
Last edited by SobreTodo; 07-22-2014 at 03:45 AM..
Both countries imported large amounts of West Indian migrants, and their influence are still ingrained in the countries today. Both, Panama and Costa Rica, have their own English dialects. Also, you can find plenty of English surnames in both countries.
It depends on the area. Virtually ALL Panamanians speak Spanish. English dialects don't really exist as much as they may have in the past. The only area that seems to maintain or still have a somewhat viable presence of an English based dialect is in some areas of Bocas Del Toro province and a few of its corresponding adjacent Atlantic coastal islands. The dialect spoken among some locals of this region is called Guari Guari, and it's mixed with or based on English Creole or English patois with significant notable contributions of Guyami/Ngobe-Bugle and Spanish. Guyami/Ngobe-Bugle are a local indigenous Native American ethnic group or tribe that have a comarcas or allocated Native American reservation or communal territorial space. Guyami people are probably more indigenous to Costa Rica, rather than Panama though.
In and around Colón City, some locals speak an English based patois but numbers have significantly dwindled since the old timers and old generations have either moved on or left, or mostly died off, and many people have migrated to the USA mostly, but also in some cases to Canada, United Kingdom, and even other parts of Europe. And many people that try to speak this dialect at times seem to half ass it or it's not naturally authentic to the point where it's a poor attempt to overcompensate for what that person lacks.
Last edited by SobreTodo; 07-22-2014 at 03:34 AM..
Panama is very traditionally Hispanic and Latin etc. People have seem to have misconceptions or go solely by what they saw among certain groups of Panamanians in the USA. But in reality, if they travel or go to Panama it's a lot different than what one will ASSume and even a stark contrast to what they saw of people claiming Panamanian roots that live in the USA.
Some U.S. customs have influenced or become popular among some in Panama, such as Halloween, Thanksgiving, Black Friday (Viernes Negro) etc.
Both countries imported large amounts of West Indian migrants, and their influence are still ingrained in the countries today. Both, Panama and Costa Rica, have their own English dialects. Also, you can find plenty of English surnames in both countries.
I'd add Venezuela to the list. USA-isms and Anglo-Caribbeanisms have made inroads into Venezuelan culture and society.
Honduras and Nicaragua are also up there. Pretty much any Central American country that has a Caribbean coast got Black people from the Caribbean islands. You also have to consider Puerto Rico for obvious reasons and at one time, the Dominican Republic got some Black Americans that went there, but many blended in or went back and only a small amount maintain a cultural connection from where they came from. Samaná Americans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That information about the Dominican Republic may explain Dominican baseball players such as Fernando Rodney and Mariano Duncan.
That's not entirely accurate. Many Afro Hispanic and cimarrones (maroon) communities descended from Spanish colonial times inhabit many parts of the Central American coastal littoral and coastlines. Most or at least all are not of Caribbean or West Indian origins.
Also people from the Caribbean islands or descended from such have been in the region or identifiably as such within the last 100 to 150 years so they may not identify as Caribbean or solely as such.
Most Blacks and/or Afrodescendientes in Central Americans descend from Africans that arrived or were brought to the region with and during Spanish colonization which dates as early as back to the 1490s and 1500s.
That may be true to a certain extent but its demographics and location is a lot more similar to Latin American countries than it is to Anglophone countries. Outside of Belize, my answer would be Puerto Rico since English and Spanish are the two official languages. After those two places, it's a wide open debate as to which other Latin American country is the most "anglofied".
What do you mean by Belize having similar demographics to "Latin American" nations? The USA could be considered a Latin American nation then with its extensive racial mixing but also at the same time being multicultural and extremely diverse.
Belize has many people that are descendants of people that have more recently migrated from nearby Spanish speaking Central American nations, and even sizeable residues of Maya, and Indigenous/Native Americans and even blacks that have been in Belize since the times of Spanish colonization.
If Belize is considered Latin American, then Trinidad can be considered Latin American, especially if one looks at the history and culture.
I guess Trinidad and Tobago are not in Latin America either.
Why is Panama in Latin America? It was broken off from Colombia in the 20th century in a revolution fomented by the Anglo world. Most of the inhabitants were not european, and much of the labor was brought in from the British colonies? So is it the most Anglo country in Latin America, or the most Spanish of the Anglo countries?
Trinidad & Tobago could be considered Latin America actually. Lots of Spanish & Hispanic cultural influences survive in T & T, especially in Trinidad in particular
As for Panama, the independence revolt revolution scheme was conceived and coined as an idea by the French and particularly Ferdinand de Lessepes and he conspired with Wall Street and Theodore Roosevelt who was president at the time. Also no Panamanian or Colombian ever signed the treaties that were established in the faulty or illegal or international volatile founding of Panama. It was one of the French signatories that signed off on the treaty as a stand in for Panama. Notice that almost all or most of the Panamanians that were put as the head of the pro visionary junta or the false independence scheme were part of the Colombian Conservative party and/or were born outside of the Panama department/state or had parents from outside of Panama. In addition, Manuel Amador Guerrero who was the first Panamanian president had been in New York at the Waldorf Hostoria, to protect him from Colombian insurgents and others trying to quell the rebellion, while the revolution was going on. Also the USA govt and Wall Street and the elites funded and fed and gave millions of dollars to the Panamanian elites and the people that were used as the face of and/or helped lead the provisionary juntas and founding elements of the Panamanian nation. Lots of that money helped contribute to the Panamanian elites wealth who are tight close knit families and exclusive and have been for several generations.
I will cite this article published in the Puerto Rican business newspaper Caribbean Business:
"The United Nations Special Committee on Decolonization is again calling the United States to expedite a process that would allow Puerto Ricans to fully exercise their inalienable right to self-determination and independence. It reiterated its position that the 2012 status plebiscite was a rejection of the current commonwealth status.
The 29-member panel has taken up the issue of Puerto Rico’s status every year for four decades, but the UN General Assembly has not acted on the resolutions.
By a draft resolution approved by consensus Monday during its annual meeting, the panel reaffirmed the inalienable right of the people of Puerto Rico to self-determination and independence, and reiterated that the Puerto Rican people constituted a Latin American and Caribbean nation with its own unequivocal national identity. It called for the island to be able to take decisions, in a sovereign manner, to address their economic and social needs." UN decolonization panel: PR’s 2012 plebiscite rejected commonwealth - Caribbean Business
It isn't. Once upon a time Trinidad was a Spanish island, but then it changed hands and became British and it hasn't been Latin American ever since (similar to Jamaica and just about every non-Spanish island in the Caribbean because in the beginning they were all Spanish.) Trinidad is not facing a population crisis by the encroaching of Latin American people into its land, namely Venezuelans, so it will likely remain outside Latin America for a very long time. Belize, on the other hand, is Latin American from a population/cultural/linguistic point of view, even though traditionally it has been an Afro-Anglo-Caribbean country. Belize is a perfect example of what happens when uncontrolled immigration is not put under control.
Most Panamanians are the product of Spanish mixed with Amerindians/Africans, their mother tongue is Spanish, and they were a part of Spain for centuries. The Anglo influence is quite recent, mostly from the USA and the English-speaking Caribbean, but its still a minority and many of the Anglo-descendants there are highly hispanicized.
Panama didn't went the way of Florida, which today there are hardly any traces of when it was a Spanish province and much of the Spanish influence is quite recent, arriving mainly from Cuba, Puerto Rico and a handful of other Latin American countries.
The thing about Panama is that it has more in common, and the general feeling that one gets there, with Spanish-Caribbean countries such as Cuba, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, and the Caribbean coast of Colombia. More often than not Panamanians even speak like many of the people from the countries I mentioned and, when abroad, they are often confused for people from those countries. Also, most Panamanian have Spanish last names while most of the West Indian descendants (most of those immigrants were men) have English last names.
Panama culturally has a lot in common with the Pacific coast of Colombia AND the Atlantic coast of Colombia. Lots of cultural elements and even speech patterns of Colombia originated in a Panama or by way of Panama.
If you go the Azuero Peninsula region of the Republic of Panama, there is lots of similarities with the Venezuelan accent, particularly the Maracaibo region of Venezuela, and even the Zulia region of Venezuela, respectively.
Panama's Spanish root or influence is heavily influenced by Andalusia. Andalusia/Andalucía had a very strong imprint on Panama. In Azuero Peninsula they do folk songs and chants and sing deep (known as canté jondo or cantar en jondo) and talking deep or speech in deep (hablar en jondo). Some people may have trouble understanding the dialect or speech patterns or accents.
Panama shares similarities to an extent with Dominican Republic & Cuba whether it's certain mannerisms or traditions. It's extremely remarkable.
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