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Old 07-10-2017, 07:48 AM
 
Location: London, UK
2,405 posts, read 1,244,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Return2FL View Post
This is why the US has a crappy role in the world. It's damned if they do and damned if they don't. If we do nothing, people will say that we sat idly as thousands of people were killed by their government (which is coming). If we do make a move, it will be "blood for oil".
Being the devil's advocate, the US is not so innocent. US interests in the region have been on most occasions selfish and unnecessarily heavy handed. Only since the end of the cold war has US foreign policy in the region gradually improved.

But that's back then and this is now. I think a hemisphere-wide approach is necessary led by South American countries but Venezuelans have been so fickle in the past that there's little incentive to take action for fear of reprisal. Not to mention if Colombia led the charge it would collapse the peace process as FARC/ELN are fervent allies of the Chavista government due to decades of support, funding and a shared ideology.

The attitude of even normal Venezuelans makes them shoot themselves in the foot and provides little incentive for anyone to get involved.
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Old 07-10-2017, 08:16 AM
 
971 posts, read 426,817 times
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Another day in a Socialists paradise. When socialism goes wrong it's always blamed on someone else or outside forces, its never the fault of the system itself of course.
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Old 07-10-2017, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Blue Ridge
20,888 posts, read 22,663,065 times
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And we fund it everyday by purchasing gas from Citgo.
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Old 07-10-2017, 11:29 AM
 
10,097 posts, read 7,008,915 times
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Allende supporters in Chile would say the same thing about how economic sabotage and political strangulation buried Allende's socialist dream. I mean internal documents released from the CIA show they helped "make the economy scream" according to Nixon's orders but this alone couldn't bring down Allende, not when he has support from other countries.

Same with Maduro. I'm sure Venezuela gets help from other countries too.

What I don't get is do socialists not expect people and markets to react to their reforms? They think stuff such as capital flight is counter revolutionary. They think other countries turning their back or refusing loans or downgrading their credit is all economic sabotage.

It's always the "gusanos" fault.
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Old 07-10-2017, 12:47 PM
 
2,542 posts, read 1,194,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pueblofuerte View Post
Being the devil's advocate, the US is not so innocent. US interests in the region have been on most occasions selfish and unnecessarily heavy handed. Only since the end of the cold war has US foreign policy in the region gradually improved.

But that's back then and this is now. I think a hemisphere-wide approach is necessary led by South American countries but Venezuelans have been so fickle in the past that there's little incentive to take action for fear of reprisal. Not to mention if Colombia led the charge it would collapse the peace process as FARC/ELN are fervent allies of the Chavista government due to decades of support, funding and a shared ideology.

The attitude of even normal Venezuelans makes them shoot themselves in the foot and provides little incentive for anyone to get involved.
I agree. Our hands are hardly clean, but the role of the US is largely overblown in Latin America. For better or for worse, we picked sides and obviously went with the side that most benefited US interests. Most of the ills down there can more closely traced to corruption than American meddling.

It would be great if other South American countries could play a larger role in fomenting and supporting "un golpe de estado" in Venezuela, but I'm not optimistic. Some way, some how, I see the US getting involved. Hopefully I'm wrong and it all happens in the voting booth.
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Old 07-10-2017, 01:18 PM
 
Location: NYntarctica
11,258 posts, read 5,751,724 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Return2FL View Post
I agree. Our hands are hardly clean, but the role of the US is largely overblown in Latin America. For better or for worse, we picked sides and obviously went with the side that most benefited US interests. Most of the ills down there can more closely traced to corruption than American meddling.

It would be great if other South American countries could play a larger role in fomenting and supporting "un golpe de estado" in Venezuela, but I'm not optimistic. Some way, some how, I see the US getting involved. Hopefully I'm wrong and it all happens in the voting booth.
Nowadays US role is pretty innocent, mostly just bad-mouthing, but historically the American role in Latin America has been very significant and harmful. If not the US government, then it's the US companies who have done considerable damage to the people of Latin America. Especially during the times of the Cold War, when containing communism was of greater importance than human rights or basic human decency. Not that Latin American countries are innocent themselves. Chile, Argentina, and many Central American governments tortured and killed thousands of their own people. For once it seems like many countries in South America are finally figuring themselves out slowly, like Peru, Colombia, Chile, Panama, Dominican Republic, etc. It's a slow process, but these countries have made tremendous progress. From being near-failed states in the Cold War years, to being middle-income countries with growing economies and improving security and human rights
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Old 07-10-2017, 06:23 PM
 
590 posts, read 395,057 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warszawa View Post
It's not as easy as just invading a country and then putting a new government there. Sounds like a recipe for a banana republic, or a Latin American version of Iraq
that's what I said no invasion, but a quick and effective coup d'etat. if the news coming from there are true, most people are alienated with the Government and suffering a lot, and they would support a change of government... unless they are masochist. The opposition just need to get the support from the military, but the support of foreign governments would also help a lot. Venezuela is not as factionalized as Syria, a lot the few people that still supports Chavismo probably do it because of convenience (they got jobs in the public service, etc). With a new Government, the Chavista minority could be easily neutralized, I hope. The past governments have messed up Venezuela too much to get a lot of support in a post Maduro government.
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Old 07-10-2017, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Greater Houston
4,514 posts, read 8,595,852 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joacocanal View Post
that's what I said no invasion, but a quick and effective coup d'etat. if the news coming from there are true, most people are alienated with the Government and suffering a lot, and they would support a change of government... unless they are masochist. The opposition just need to get the support from the military, but the support of foreign governments would also help a lot. Venezuela is not as factionalized as Syria, a lot the few people that still supports Chavismo probably do it because of convenience (they got jobs in the public service, etc). With a new Government, the Chavista minority could be easily neutralized, I hope. The past governments have messed up Venezuela too much to get a lot of support in a post Maduro government.
Replace Venezuela with the U.S. and Chavez/Maduro with Trump. Do you think it's still acceptable to neutralize the Trump minority? Venezuelans rightly will see this as U.S./CIA Imperialism.

Houston and the Republic of Texas would also be in shambles if not for being part of the economically diverse United States and fracking buoying the energy industry (unless OPEC places an embargo against the United States and now has to rely on domestic oil fracking).

I can't bear to see the similarities between Trump and Chavez. Same charisma to economically downtrodden people on the low-rungs of the economic ladder, broken promises, poor leadership, etc. and both are egotistic megalomaniacs. So this is a preview of America in a few years? Ouch and yuck!
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Old 07-10-2017, 07:23 PM
 
590 posts, read 395,057 times
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Trump is an idiot but he is not killing dozens of millions of Americanians with hunger, there is no medicine shortage in the USA, Americanians aren't forced to emigrate en masse to other countries, USA doesn't have a homicide rate of 90 per 100.000 people, or corruption at all levels... the situation in Venezuela is that of an humanitarian crisis and Maduro is not letting Venezuelan people other choice...
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Old 07-10-2017, 09:13 PM
 
Location: NYntarctica
11,258 posts, read 5,751,724 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joacocanal View Post
Trump is an idiot but he is not killing dozens of millions of Americanians with hunger, there is no medicine shortage in the USA, Americanians aren't forced to emigrate en masse to other countries, USA doesn't have a homicide rate of 90 per 100.000 people, or corruption at all levels... the situation in Venezuela is that of an humanitarian crisis and Maduro is not letting Venezuelan people other choice...
America more or less runs on auto-pilot now, which means that they could put ****ing Cthulhu as president and things would barely change. Say what you want, but the checks and balances system of the US is really good at keeping the US on its course, which is why many idiotic proposals from both sides of the political spectrum have not succeeded. Developing countries don't have that option and need strong leadership to guide them towards prosperity. Colombia in the 80s and 90s needed many brave politicians to stand up to the narcos and many of them had to risk their own lives for the good of the country. If you gave Trump a country with a fragile economic and political system like Venezuela I'm sure it would not go well. Philippines or Turkey is a good example of what happens when you have a Trump in control of a developing country
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