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And yes in times past Trinidadians were more flexible when it came to interracial marriages, than were Guyanese, but this has changed within the past 20 years. The fastest growing group in Guyana are the mixed identified, whereas that population in Trinidad is more stable.
Cubans, Brazilians and Dominicans are in Guyana for business purposes, as indeed are most of the North Americans and Europeans. The eco tourism sector is still quite small. Most visitors to Guyana for recreational purposes are overseas based Guyanese or people from the rest of the Caribbean.
Bro the Brazilian population has been coming to Guyana for a long time, some of the people who were Portuguese were really of Brazilian origin. There has been a steady influx of Brazilians in the past 2 decades,and many of them do come for work but many of them settle in as well. There are Brazilian restaurants,churches,and retail stores in Downtown Georgetown.
A large part of the Brazilian population comes from the Amerindians who travel back and forth and have family on both sides near Lethem, so yes many Brazilians are there.This would even be the case for Guyanese in the Essequibo ,and are of Amerindian ancestry who have relatives,family and 2nd homes on both sides of the Venezuelan border.
Do you know how much Spanish and Portuguese is talked in Georgetown now? Not with just the expat arrivals but the locals are picking up the language.
I've met tons of people who were Brazilian origin that had the Guyanese accent.
Now with Cubans only time will but they are a host of businesses they already have a hold of like the Brazilians did years ago.
Never said Dominicans were in Guyana like that, just a little bit and many are just tourist.
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Originally Posted by caribny
Neither Guyana and Trinidad are traditional tourist destinations, though Tobago is. It will be the adventurous tourist, or those who are traveling with locals, or who know people living in those countries, who will best appreciate these places. They can be both quite fascinating, given their rich cultural diversity and eco/adventure attractions (more rigorous in Guyana). But they aren't for the casual tourist.
That's completely false,Trinidad is a tourist destination especially with the Carnival they have. Guyana honestly is not so much a traditional tourist destination , but they still are tourists coming in.It may not be a tourist destination area like countries Virgin Islands,Jamaica or Brazil but it has its visitors.
The tourism sector is however growing in Guyana this is why you have hotels popping up in Georgetown and along the East Bank.You also have many restaurants popping up(like chinese and Latin styled restaurants), for all varieties with reasonable prices.Some of them have Americanized foods such as BBQ,pizza,and hot wings, so yes they are catering to American and European tourist coming in.
Never said Guyana is a tourist spot. But its definitely on the rise.There has been a water amusement park there for years and a couple new hotels with betting and gambling services down there popping up
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Originally Posted by caribny
Its a slippery slope to identify who is mixed. I don't place too much importance on this. Some people are mixed because they have parents from two or more different ethnic groups. Some people are mixed because they derive from ancient mixing between Africans and Europeans. Others identify as mixed because they don't want to be identified with a particular ethnic group. For some its even a cop out of dealing with the ethnic friction that exists in both countries.
That's false no black in Guyana would say they are mixed because they have European great grand parent or even a grand parent.I know because many in my family have this instance happening and is the case with many of my friends and people i meet.
You can't say you are mixed in Guyana people have to give you that designation since people would put in you the racial category you look like PERIOD. So say if a dougla or mulatto comes out looking black then they would be labeled black.
Plus you are not in danger or ostracized in Guyana for identifying with any ethnic group. People in general don't mess with you because you are of this race or that race.
This is the case for Portuguese and other Europeans down there.
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Originally Posted by caribny
So I will not debate as to whether Trinidad or Guyana have a higher mixed population, because we cannot even define who is and who isnt mixed. Within the Caribbean itself the majority of black identified peoples have some non African admixture, but yet self identify as black. In fact I bet someone who is 70% black in an island like Barbados will identify as "black" whereas Trinidad/Guyana, not having black majorities, that person might identify as "mixed".
I don't know if Guyana is more mixed than Trinidad per se , but its probably more mixed than reported. Since for many reasons there expats down there unreported, many citizens travel back and forth from Venezuela at least before the crisis there (carrying mixed ancestry), and many mixed blacks (being half Amerindian,Indian, Chinese)identify and take the title of being black.
So saying a person with 70% African ancestry would identify as mixed in Guyana is utterly false,especially with my family and other people I've seen who look 50/50 black or even 30/70 black/non-black. I know for a fact I am in the 65%-70% range and never called myself anything other than black nor have I been given title of mixed.
The thing is people with African ancestry are proud in Guyana,also because there are AFRICANS there (like Nigerians and Ghanaians),and some blacks with no mixed at all( a lot of those matter of fact).
And btw obviously Guyana is not the Caribbean.
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Originally Posted by caribny
I suggest that you look at the 2012 census. It is clear that the more rural regions like Region 2, 3, 5 and 6 have a higher % of Indians, whereas the more urban like Region 4 (dominated by G/T and its environs) and Region 10 (dominated by Linden) have a higher % of Africans. This isnt to say that there aren't substantial rural populations of Africans or urban populations of Indians. Even the more rural areas have populations which are 30%+ African/mixed. And greater G/T is probably 30% Indian.
You have to understand these stats are not concise and people move around Guyana. Its not hard to go through Georgetown and see Indians and other races of people moving about. Georgetown is mixed period, when I am walking or driving through Regent st,Bordamarket,Kitty,Sherriff st,Mandela st ,Lamaha, etc I see a group of all kind of races and mixed people of all varities. You go through some areas like Downtown GT you will see not only Indians,but mixed Amerindians,Chinese,Brazilians and Cubans.
You ever traveled through Georgetown recently btw, its alot of Indians there with out a question,some of them live black areas like Alberstown some even live in rough areas with blacks like Kingston.
Also you make it seem like Region 4 is all urbanized , many blacks there live along the East Coast in villages like Nabiculus, BV,Ann's Grove,Victoria,and much more.
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Originally Posted by caribny
This is to say that most Indians are rural and Africans are more likely to be urban than are Indians. So yes a visitor to G/T might be surprised at the fact that Indians aren't as dominant in numbers as they expected them to be. This vlog in fact indicates this as he walks around the commercial parts of the city.
Indians are in commercial parts of the city,but I wouldn't say Georgetown is completely black or even dominated by them. Its all about timing in this video.
And yes in times past Trinidadians were more flexible when it came to interracial marriages, than were Guyanese, but this has changed within the past 20 years. The fastest growing group in Guyana are the mixed identified, whereas that population in Trinidad is more stable.
The problem with interracial marriages were more so stressed and burdened by the government , not so much the people's attitude.Yes you had racists on both sides but those flames were fanned by Burnham regime.
Interracial marriages have always been going on, I could show you some stats of some Indo-Guyanese with African ancestry,back 4 or 5 generations.Same thing with Afro-Guyanese.
Do you really think a demographic of a country is going to change in the past 20 years.Not enough time.
Look at the stats,Guyana in 2012 was 20% mixed while in Trinidad 22%,not really much of a difference. If anything the shift slowed down during the 1960s and 1970s.
I can also see the shadow of the camera in some of his footage...it's not just a cellphone, it's a real camera on one of those selfie sticks. He's quite blatantly filming people without any subtlety or asking permission about it.
I'm a bit surprised he's been able to get the hours and hours and hours and hours of footage he's already got in all of those cities, without someone making an issue from it, or someone demanding him to hand it over.
It probably depends on how touristy a place is too. In the Zócalo of Mexico City, no one would notice, but I don't know if places like Suriname and Guyana get that many international tourists.
It probably depends on how touristy a place is too. In the Zócalo of Mexico City, no one would notice, but I don't know if places like Suriname and Guyana get that many international tourists.
No Guyana doesn't get many international tourist but it can get there one day. When I was last there I saw many White American and European walking around areas of Georgetown ,some areas are considred rough by many and some are well to do prominent areas. You have water parks like the Jubilee Resort ,HJ Water World, and the Splaishmins.Then you have the Dargon Tours for things like the Safari..
If you want a nice hotel, you can try the Princess Hotel equipped with a Casino or Bar or maybe the King Suite Hotel they have club for the After hours.
But the best hotels would probably be the Pegasus were there is a bar upstairs and live bands playing on the Weekends.You can take a trip in Lacytown if you want to go shopping or you can go shopping at the giftland mall.
[quote=PrizeWinner;52031596]
You have to understand these stats are not concise and people move around Guyana. Its not hard to go through Georgetown and see Indians and other races of people moving about. Georgetown is mixed period, when I am walking or driving through Regent st,Bordamarket,Kitty,Sherriff st,Mand.[/QUOTE\]
Raphael Trotman self identifies as "mixed" David Granger self identifies as "black". Now please discuss this, given that Trotman is darker than In Guyana there is no criteria as to who considers themselves to be "black" vs. being "mixed". People have all sorts of rationalizations behind their self identities.
Trinidad is NOT a tourist destination. Even they don't claim it to be except for carnival. How many of the hotels in Trinidad are located on a beach? That should be a clue, given that North Americans and Europeans visit the Caribbean mainly for beach purposes.
If Guyana isnt Caribbean then Trinidad isnt either. Very similar culturally. Do you know that every morning birds leave Trinidad to fly to Venezuela, which is a mere 7 miles away at the closest point? Geographically Trinidad is an extension of Venezuela, and its flora and fauna reflects this. Trinidad is NOT part of the arc of islands, extending from Grenada up to Saba/Anguilla. Its surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean with the Gulf of Paria
And in fact its interesting how hard is it to travel to the rest of South America. No proper roads except to the ferry for Suriname. No direct airlinks except to Suriname. To get to most of South America from Guyana one has to fly via Panama (Central America). To Trinidad 4 flights daily and 2 to Barbados. Clearly Guyana is as Caribbean as they come. The headquarters for the CARICOM Secretariat is even in Guyana!
Look at the stats,Guyana in 2012 was 20% mixed while in Trinidad 22%,not really much of a difference. If anything the shift slowed down during the 1960s and 1970s.
In 197- 11% of the Guyana population self identified as "mixed". BY 1992 the % self identifying as mixed was roughly the same. By 2012 it was 20%. Trinidad has always had a mixed identified population of around 20%.
I very much doubt whether miscegenation has anything to do with what the politicians say. One thing that is obvious is that there was a change after the 1991 census. Either more mixing, more "black" identified people changing to "mixed" or most likely a combination of both. The Indian population dropped from 51% in 1970 dropping to 39% by 2012.
Raphael Trotman self identifies as "mixed" David Granger self identifies as "black". Now please discuss this, given that Trotman is darker than In Guyana there is no criteria as to who considers themselves to be "black" vs. being "mixed". People have all sorts of rationalizations behind their self identities.
You can't be serious , there is so much flaws in your point. First of all,just because a black person is lighter skinned doesn't mean they are blacker or mixed at all. For example an Afro-Latino like Laz Alonso would never be mistaken for less mixed than a light skin African American like rapper The Game or even an Afram singerBeyonce. Lets be real .In case you didn't know light skinned doesn't always indicate more mixed or less mixed,its a moot point.
Secondly, David Granger is not lighter skinned than Raphael Trotman.
3rd point, I must say Raphael Trotman does look like he can be mixed,so its not far fetched.Look at their pics.
Raphael Trotman does like mixed more Dougla than anything( maybe Portugese mixed), he can even pass for an Afro-Latino.
The point is you are given the name mixed in Guyana you can't just claim it like you do in Trinidad since that's the way you self identify.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
Trinidad is NOT a tourist destination. Even they don't claim it to be except for carnival. How many of the hotels in Trinidad are located on a beach? That should be a clue, given that North Americans and Europeans visit the Caribbean mainly for beach purposes.
If Guyana isnt Caribbean then Trinidad isnt either. Very similar culturally. Do you know that every morning birds leave Trinidad to fly to Venezuela, which is a mere 7 miles away at the closest point? Geographically Trinidad is an extension of Venezuela, and its flora and fauna reflects this. Trinidad is NOT part of the arc of islands, extending from Grenada up to Saba/Anguilla. Its surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean with the Gulf of Paria
I don't know what you mean by Tourist destination but I can honestly say they have enough tourists coming in especially for Carnival.Although this is by word of mouth, so I am not certain but it is considered the Caribbean so tourist will literally come naturally.
Guyana is culturally part of the Caribbean, but in terms of GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION its NOT. Trinidad is in the Caribbean sea at least CONSIDERED part of it and its definitely part of the Lesser Antilles, but you know GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION is not what MATTERS so I don't know why you're mentioning it.
Guyana has a land mass bigger than Middle Eastern countries of Syria,Lebanon, and Jordan .Better yet a bigger land mass than Central American countries like Honduras,Guatemala,El Salvador,or even Panama. Its not an island and never will be ,it will always have cultural ties to the Caribbean island because of the familial ties in these islands, but its not an island.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
And in fact its interesting how hard is it to travel to the rest of South America. No proper roads except to the ferry for Suriname. No direct airlinks except to Suriname. To get to most of South America from Guyana one has to fly via Panama (Central America). To Trinidad 4 flights daily and 2 to Barbados. Clearly Guyana is as Caribbean as they come. The headquarters for the CARICOM Secretariat is even in Guyana!
Doesn't matter about routing back and forth to the Caribbean rather than to South America.
Actually.Its easier to get to the Venezuela from the Essequibo than Caribbean islands as a matter of fact .Did you know there 250,000 Guyanese living in Venezuela at one point.In fact my family is living there now.
And you don't have to get a ferry to Suriname there are roads that go back and forth there.
There are also roads that go to Brazil through Lethem, and they are new road projects there to make better means of traveling there by the government,although I am wary and doubtful about the means its coming about thanks to the Granger administration, this project amounts to $50 Billion and going to get done by the Chinese
In 197- 11% of the Guyana population self identified as "mixed". BY 1992 the % self identifying as mixed was roughly the same. By 2012 it was 20%. Trinidad has always had a mixed identified population of around 20%.
I very much doubt whether miscegenation has anything to do with what the politicians say. One thing that is obvious is that there was a change after the 1991 census. Either more mixing, more "black" identified people changing to "mixed" or most likely a combination of both. The Indian population dropped from 51% in 1970 dropping to 39% by 2012.
What census did you take this from? Trinidad in 1960 and 1980 has a mixed population of around 16.4.%.In 2012 its 24.0
Guyana in the 80s didn't really have a proper census taking so we don't know.Where did you pull the info from?
You're right the mixing has nothing to do with politicians say because mixing has always occurred all through out Guyana's history. Although it was under Burnham that racial tensions got high and people on alert that didn't stop the mixing though.
Why blacks change their racial identification to mixed after the 1991 census? East Indians see mixed people as just that and not Indian?BTW you know douglas still identify more black in Guyana.
The Indian population did drop from 51% to 39% because it has dropped just like blacks population has dropped due to migrant flight and a growing mixed population.
But as I said I think the mixed population is bigger than the census because I see a lot of mulatto and chiney black identifying as black in Guyana.Its harder to identify mixed there.
What census did you take this from? Trinidad in 1960 and 1980 has a mixed population of around 16.4.%.In 2012 its 24.0
Guyana in the 80s didn't really have a proper census taking so we don't know.Where did you pull the info from?
You're right the mixing has nothing to do with politicians say because mixing has always occurred all through out Guyana's history. Although it was under Burnham that racial tensions got high and people on alert that didn't stop the mixing though.
Why blacks change their racial identification to mixed after the 1991 census? East Indians see mixed people as just that and not Indian?BTW you know douglas still identify more black in Guyana.
The Indian population did drop from 51% to 39% because it has dropped just like blacks population has dropped due to migrant flight and a growing mixed population.
But as I said I think the mixed population is bigger than the census because I see a lot of mulatto and chiney black identifying as black in Guyana.Its harder to identify mixed there.
Guyana has a census bureau with tones of information. And as to who identifies as mixed is their business.
I am not going to waste any further time with this with you. I invite you however to look to see where the regions with the highest % of mixed people. Its the interior, and Regions 2. 4 and 10. Not Region 3 or 5. I don't think that a growing dougla population has anything to do with it.
Show a picture when Trotman was younger because as you know in Guyana hair texture is the biggest indicator of ethnicity.
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