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Can't speak for CaribenoEast but I just said that the average PR would be considered "Pardo" in Brazil since Pardo Brazilians have similar levels of admixture yet don't identify as white.
You can't blame the U.S. for that. It's just that different countries have different definitions of "white" and "black."
In PR, you're probably considered white if you're 55% - 65% European but there's many countries in Latin America where that isn't the case.
Hell, the average Cibaeno in the DR is close to 60% European on avr. yet only 11% of the DR identifies as white, despite Cibao being over half the country.
It's all relative. On a side note, Costa Rica has a similar definition of "white" as PR. Costa Ricans who are 60% European are considered "white" over there but many still have obviously mixed ancestry.
But yeah...I guess you can say the average PR's are mostly Caucasian mixed people. Nobody can deny that but not everybody's going to agree that 75% of Puerto Rico is white.
It is interesting that you mention the DR. I was in the DR but was only in the southwestern part and in the capital, but only for a brief amount of time.
The southwestern part is very black. I remember a friend saying you have a lot of people that there are descendants of Haitians. It makes sense since it is near the border.
I know the capital is mixed. Also you have a lot of immigrants, tourists, and expatriates so this is why you will see a mixed population there.
I always knew though the Cibao region is the most European part of the DR. I would like to visit La Vega and Santiago.
In fact, champeta comes from Cartagena and its consumption is highly limited to low-income people or people from outer Santa Marta. El Pibe's neighbourhood of pescaito is home to many of these people.
And the fact that they're low income makes them less Samario? Please - Santa Marta is half low income! I've been to Santa Marta many times I know el centro, Rodadero, Pozos Cololorados, El Prado/Manzanares, Taganga the lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oraculo
Picking random videos of black people with strong accents won't prove anything.
Random Videos Jajajaja LMAO. It's a video of LA UNION MAGDALENA! Not just any video but the commemoration of its 65 years. It's the city's football team!! - Random video lol
Also the large group were from Manzanares - not exactly low income huh? Also they're clearly not completely black but a mixture of African, European and Native American - they have a reddish tone to their complexion. Only black people have different features.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oraculo
Santa Marta's accent is noted for being the nicest and clearest sounding accent on the Atlantic Coast of Colombia.
I don't dispute that although I wouldn't say nicest. Clearest yes. I have distant family there in Alcazares and I also know Santa Marta has a large European history but so do many other cities in the "Antilles" - do you know how "white" Cuba used to be before the mass exodus after the revolution? You're just ignorant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oraculo
Last but not least, Rodrigo de Bastidas was a Spaniard. Naturally.
Many of us are Spaniards naturally if we go back far enough. The fact is he lived in Santo Domingo, founded Santa Marta and died in Santiago de Cuba makes him among the first European Americans. Santa Marta is the daughter of Santo Domingo lol. The first 300 years of your city centred around the communication with the likes of Santo Domingo, Portobelo and Cuba.
It is interesting that you mention the DR. I was in the DR but was only in the southwestern part and in the capital, but only for a brief amount of time.
The southwestern part is very black. I remember a friend saying you have a lot of people that there are descendants of Haitians. It makes sense since it is near the border.
I know the capital is mixed. Also you have a lot of immigrants, tourists, and expatriates so this is why you will see a mixed population there.
I always knew though the Cibao region is the most European part of the DR. I would like to visit La Vega and Santiago.
This is how the population is settled in the DR. The map itself is old (2004), but population distribution hasn't changed much. If anything, the density has gone up in the places that were already densely populated.
Population density and night electric ilumination seem to go hand in hand, as can be evidenced in this image from Space. I guess Haiti is the only place where electric ilumination doesn't reflect population density, probably due to most of Haiti not having electricity.
Nobody plays baseball in Santa Marta, samarios play football instead, the city's most popular sport by far. The fact that it's the birthplace of Falcao and El Pibe should tell you something. Also, champeta is nowhere near as popular as vallenato. In fact, champeta comes from Cartagena and its consumption is highly limited to low-income people or people from outer Santa Marta. El Pibe's neighbourhood of pescaito is home to many of these people.
Picking random videos of black people with strong accents won't prove anything. Anyone's that visited knows what Santa Marta is like. You don't need to make up stuff to fit your crazy idea of pan-Caribbeanism, it's not going to happen. Santa Marta's accent is noted for being the nicest and clearest sounding accent on the Atlantic Coast of Colombia.
I will agree on Santa Marta somewhat having contact with the Dutch Antilles.
Last but not least, Rodrigo de Bastidas was a Spaniard. Naturally.
Every single Spanish conquistador was a Spaniard, otherwise they couldn't be Spanish conquistadors. Most of them lived for quite a few years in what is now the Dominican Republic, especially in Santo Domingo. From there they spread to conquer the Western Hemisphere.
Rodrigo de Bastidas lived in Santo Domingo for long enough to build a mansion from himself. How long did it took to build a mansion back in the 1500's? Exactly, it wasn't a one year thing. The same applies with all the other people that accompanied him from Santo Domingo on the voyage that lead to the founding of Santa Marta.
If you look at DNA studies and individual results of Dominicans, you will notice that most Dominicans have some Native American DNA, most of that is undeniably Taino.
Pure blooded Tainos disappeared from the island in the 1500's, with only a handful left by the end of the century. What does that mean? It means that the Taino DNA in Dominicans is the DNA that was passed down with the first Mestizos of the New World (or of the world, if you think about it.)
My point is that the Taino DNA presence in Dominicans is a testament that they must also have, within the Spanish ancestry, some from the Spanish conquistadors that lived for several years on that island. Anywhere these Spanish conquistadors went to conquer means they left behind on the island a bunch of kids with their DNA and they created new kids in Santa Marta, in Lima, in Panama, in Puerto Rico, in Mexico, in Cuba, in Florida, etc. All those kids were related to the kids left behind in what is now the Dominican Republic.
See how people hundreds and thousands of miles away end up being distant cousins to their first siblings that sprang up on what is now the Dominican Republic?
Re-mixtures and the injection of different blood with the centuries creates the looks that predominates in each country, but that original mixture is still there and its from there that the connections are made.
And this is focusing only on the Spanish side, because there's also plenty of Native American and African DNA that connects various peoples in this hemisphere. The Spanish side is what connects the most number of people from Spanish America because that's the common denominator, if you will, in every single country. The other inputs in people's DNA are much more local.
The conclude, this Spaniard is a direct descendant of Christopher Columbus. According to him, he's also a direct descendant of Monctezuma, the Aztec king (Mexico.) Believe it or not, this guy is a distant cousin to thousands of people in Dominican Republic (through his Columbus ancestry) and in Mexico (through his Aztec ancestry), and possibly of people from other countries if we accept that many people migrated from one place in the Americas to another during the past 500 years.
Due to the amount of time that has pass, his distant cousins in Spain and in the Americas look like everything, some look white, others mestizos, other black, others mulatto, others a weird mixed look.
The question is not if a large percentage of Dominicans and other Latin Americans share ancestry via the Spanish conquistadors, because that's a fact. The real question is from which conquistadors? Most likely there's more than one in many people's genealogical tree, simply due to the amount of time that has gone by and all the mixing and re-mixing since then.
I think after reading this post (and doing further research to prove to themselves that what I say here is the truth), many Latin Americans will never look at historical images of the Spanish and Native American leaders from 500 years ago the same way. You can very well be looking at the eyes of an ancestor of yours.
That's Hernan Cortes. His house in Santo Domingo is a few blocks north of Rodrigo de Bastidas. He lived in what is now the Dominican Republic for many years, arriving from Spain when he was just a teenager. Then he moved to Cuba and live there for a handful of years. Finally, he leads the expedition that ended with the conquer of Mexico. Imagine how many kids he procreated in DR, Cuba, and Mexico; all half brothers and sisters. Their descendants today are all distant cousins, but their first siblings were created in what is now the DR. These people would probably look at each other and not even recognize that they are connected simply because today they look so different. Yet, the connection is real.
Genealogy is an amazing thing. Too bad people are so closed minded they can't see pass the end of their nose, pride in your local culture doesn't mean exclusion of your wider world connections. The two can live perfectly side by side.
And the fact that they're low income makes them less Samario? Please - Santa Marta is half low income! I've been to Santa Marta many times I know el centro, Rodadero, Pozos Cololorados, El Prado/Manzanares, Taganga the lot.
Random Videos Jajajaja LMAO. It's a video of LA UNION MAGDALENA! Not just any video but the commemoration of its 65 years. It's the city's football team!! - Random video lol
Also the large group were from Manzanares - not exactly low income huh? Also they're clearly not completely black but a mixture of African, European and Native American - they have a reddish tone to their complexion. Only black people have different features.
I don't dispute that although I wouldn't say nicest. Clearest yes. I have distant family there in Alcazares and I also know Santa Marta has a large European history but so do many other cities in the "Antilles" - do you know how "white" Cuba used to be before the mass exodus after the revolution? You're just ignorant.
Many of us are Spaniards naturally if we go back far enough. The fact is he lived in Santo Domingo, founded Santa Marta and died in Santiago de Cuba makes him among the first European Americans. Santa Marta is the daughter of Santo Domingo lol. The first 300 years of your city centred around the communication with the likes of Santo Domingo, Portobelo and Cuba.
Manzanares is not an upscale neighbourhood, not that I know of. Of course there's poverty especially compared to the developed world but I'm solely referring to impoverished areas on a local scale and immigrant groups. Champeta is not popular in Santa Marta, we are aware of its existence but vallenato takes the lead when it comes to music. Cartagena is mad about champeta whereas we lean more towards vallenato, that's the way it's always been.
I find it funny how you are desperately trying to thrust this Pan-Caribbeanism idea down our throats but you sure wouldn't be OK with grouping Peruvian and Bolivian Andean culture with that of Andean Colombia. To me, born and raised in the Santa Marta area, I find countries like Cuba and Dominican Republic to be very distant or even Panama. Venezuela and the Dutch Antilles, we are more familiar with.
Every single Spanish conquistador was a Spaniard, otherwise they couldn't be Spanish conquistadors. Most of them lived for quite a few years in what is now the Dominican Republic, especially in Santo Domingo. From there they spread to conquer the Western Hemisphere.
Rodrigo de Bastidas lived in Santo Domingo for long enough to build a mansion from himself. How long did it took to build a mansion back in the 1500's? Exactly, it wasn't a one year thing. The same applies with all the other people that accompanied him from Santo Domingo on the voyage that lead to the founding of Santa Marta.
My point is that the Taino DNA presence in Dominicans is a testament that they must also have, within the Spanish ancestry, some from the Spanish conquistadors that lived for several years on that island. Anywhere these Spanish conquistadors went to conquer means they left behind on the island a bunch of kids with their DNA and they created new kids in Santa Marta, in Lima, in Panama, in Puerto Rico, in Mexico, in Cuba, in Florida, etc. All those kids were related to the kids left behind in what is now the Dominican Republic.
See how people hundreds and thousands of miles away end up being distant cousins to their first siblings that sprang up on what is now the Dominican Republic?
Re-mixtures and the injection of different blood with the centuries creates the looks that predominates in each country, but that original mixture is still there and its from there that the connections are made.
And this is focusing only on the Spanish side, because there's also plenty of Native American and African DNA that connects various peoples in this hemisphere. The Spanish side is what connects the most number of people from Spanish America because that's the common denominator, if you will, in every single country. The other inputs in people's DNA are much more local.
The conclude, this Spaniard is a direct descendant of Christopher Columbus. According to him, he's also a direct descendant of Monctezuma, the Aztec king (Mexico.) Believe it or not, this guy is a distant cousin to thousands of people in Dominican Republic (through his Columbus ancestry) and in Mexico (through his Aztec ancestry), and possibly of people from other countries if we accept that many people migrated from one place in the Americas to another during the past 500 years.
Due to the amount of time that has pass, his distant cousins in Spain and in the Americas look like everything, some look white, others mestizos, other black, others mulatto, others a weird mixed look.
The question is not if a large percentage of Dominicans and other Latin Americans share ancestry via the Spanish conquistadors, because that's a fact. The real question is from which conquistadors? Most likely there's more than one in many people's genealogical tree, simply due to the amount of time that has gone by and all the mixing and re-mixing since then.
I think after reading this post (and doing further research to prove to themselves that what I say here is the truth), many Latin Americans will never look at historical images of the Spanish and Native American leaders from 500 years ago the same way. You can very well be looking at the eyes of an ancestor of yours.
That's Hernan Cortes. His house in Santo Domingo is a few blocks north of Rodrigo de Bastidas. He lived in what is now the Dominican Republic for many years, arriving from Spain when he was just a teenager. Then he moved to Cuba and live there for a handful of years. Finally, he leads the expedition that ended with the conquer of Mexico. Imagine how many kids he procreated in DR, Cuba, and Mexico; all half brothers and sisters. Their descendants today are all distant cousins, but their first siblings were created in what is now the DR. These people would probably look at each other and not even recognize that they are connected simply because today they look so different. Yet, the connection is real.
Cool. That makes perfect sense to me. But, that was centuries ago and we've taken different paths since then. It's clear a big portion of the Americas was under Spanish rule.
Inland Colombia was settled all the way from Santa Marta. That would make bogotanos and bumangueses, to name a few, distant cousins of the Spanish conquistadores that first landed in Dominican Republic. But we know it's not all that simple.
Manzanares is not an upscale neighbourhood, not that I know of. Of course there's poverty especially compared to the developed world but I'm solely referring to impoverished areas on a local scale and immigrant groups.
1. Immigrant groups from where? Lol. This is not Medellin we're talking about, lower income people are just as from there as any other Samarios. Pescaito is not any less Samario than Gaira.
2. Exactly poverty = plenty of of poor, low income and medium-low income Samarios, in fact together these people amount to more than upper middle income or high income Samarios.
3. Manzanares is a strong traditional barrio. In the Santa Marta context you can say they're strictly middle income but anyway that's not the point - are these "black" people in the video as you said any less Samario than you? Are these "random" (as you say) La Union Magdalena supporters imposters? Lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oraculo
Champeta is not popular in Santa Marta, we are aware of its existence but vallenato takes the lead when it comes to music.
Have you heard of Chouval-Bwa? There's nothing that sounds more similar than Vallenato in the world. Vallenato unites so many elements of the Caribbean region. Is the accordion played in the Andes? No. Is it played in the Pacific Coast? No. Is it played in Dominican Republic? Yes! Is it played in Martinique? Yes! That's part of the European heritage of the Caribbean basin. This instrument is a regional icon.
Also those people dancing Champeta in El Pescaito or 20 de Julio are no less Samario than you! El Pibe did something for your city, what have you done? Nothing but spread division.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oraculo
I find it funny how you are desperately trying to thrust this Pan-Caribbeanism idea down our throats but you sure wouldn't be OK with grouping Peruvian and Bolivian Andean culture with that of Andean Colombia.
No desperation needed. The ingredients are there and any semi-intellectual person that's travelled the world can see the connections. You probably haven't stepped outside your ivory tower apart from one dream trip to Europe and Miami.
Finally I do think there is a Pan Andean culture, even another poster on this forum jocanal who is Boyacense has stated he feels there is. Now of course it's concentrated in mainly Cundinamarca, Boyaca, Cauca and Nariño but it's there to some extent. The difference of course is that Bogota is now a metropolis and has shed its local traditional culture a lot as is the case with most metropolis around the world. But the founding culture is still present despite the centuries, remember it's a long time ago but we're still only 6 lifetimes removed from the foundation of these cities..
This discussion is so focused on race as opposed to culture...oh well.
I've seen some PR's in real life claim they were "whiter" than DR's as though that, in itself, is a major "cultural" distinction. I don't buy it though.
Also, Cuba is simultaneously "whiter"(by numbers) and "blacker" than PR, so I wonder how they reconcile that.
But, let's ignore that and focus strictly on culture.
All 3 accents have been largely influenced by Andalusians and Canary Islanders(called "Islenos") with a minor African and Arawak influence.
Dominican and Cuban Spanish is slightly more African influenced than PR Spanish on average. There's a strong Yoruba influence in Eastern Cuban Spanish in particular and a general West African influence in a good portion of DR Spanish. However, Puerto Rican and Dominican Spanish is much more Arawak influenced than Cuban Spanish with some vocabulary words actually being incorporating Arawak vocabulary whereas Cuban Spanish has no Arawak influence.
For cuisine, it's the same thing. Puerto Ricans have mofongo but Dominicans have their own version of mofongo as well. Dominicans have spaghetti but Puerto Ricans have their own version of Spaghetti as well. They all eat platanos, pollo, arroz, salami, empanadas, etc. with minor differences. The "Cuban sandwich" is an American invention(not even invented by a Cuban) but that's one thing that stands out about "Cuban" cuisine. All 3 cuisines also lack spiciness compared to their Mexican and Anglo Caribbean counterparts. Cuba has a stronger coffee culture as well.
I always found the histories of the 3 countries to be pretty similar as well. I heard some people on here claim PR and Cuban history is more intertwined but can someone tell me how? And no, Spanish immigration doesn't count(since it correlates with race.) Can someone tell me the connection between the histories of Cuba and PR that I'm not aware of. Maybe the governments were similar or certain events happened that were more important to them than in Hispaniola. I'm genuinely curious.
Also, I have no real knowledge on the actual etiquette and social norms of the 3 countries. Someone can probably speak on that as well because pretty much everything I heard involved stereotypes from the 3 cultures and other Latino groups. I've heard PR's and DR's claim Cubans have no humility, Cubans claim PR's and DR's are less "intellectual", etc. but those are stereotypes and not real mannerisms or social norms.
It'd be interesting to see someone break down the actual cultural differences in those categories.
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