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Old 08-30-2019, 11:06 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
22,015 posts, read 19,562,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
The Chinese have an authoritian government which cannot be replicated in Portugal. It’s a huge country and when you can martial over one billion people, it’s a whole different matter. As a part of the EU Portugal has little control over its currency. Unlike China which kept the yuan low for exports.

Thus Portugal had to get money from tourism and direct investment, much like Spain.

But there’s nothing wrong with that. You cannot turn Portugal or Spain into Germany, nor does the public in each nation want that.
I don't share those views at all.

The currency is no problem. And your accusation is wrong. To the contrary, China kept its currency stronger than it actually is for a long time, up until a couple of weeks ago, when they stopped doing so as a response to new US tariff threats. Oddly, China was accused of manipulation when it ceased to manipulate, but nobody thanked China while it was manipulating its currency, which helped the West.

The problem is really the stupidity of Portuguese and most other European politicians. They have no sense of strategy and long-term thinking. China knows what it wants and seeks ways to get there. In Portugal politicians simply don't set goals or anything.

There definitely is a lot wrong with that. Tourism is a cancer, be it here or in Spain. It keeps locals from doing meaningful things in life, studying solid disciplines etc. Tourism means cheap money and dependency.

Of course one can turn Portugal into a small Germany. Nor does the public not want that as you claim.
There are other countries of similar size that are like Germany, Switzerland and Austria for instance. There is no reason why Portugal should not become like that, if politicians tried. All it takes is a long-term strategy that some developing countries have, countries that have already overtaken Portugal in terms of technology.
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:47 PM
 
753 posts, read 396,037 times
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We have this problem in democracies with the politicians just looking until next election and don’t planning long-term politics. Any way it is not something impossible of being solved in democracies.

Authoritarian states like china is easier for the leaders work in long-term thinking, but the problem is if bad leaders get in the power… is not that easy take they out like in democracies… pretty impossible without international military help.

China is an exception of good administration in a dictatorship. North korea, cuba, venezuela and african dictatorships are the norm.
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Old 08-30-2019, 01:07 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
22,015 posts, read 19,562,955 times
Reputation: 8708
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVANGELISTTI View Post
We have this problem in democracies with the politicians just looking until next election and donít planning long-term politics. Any way it is not something impossible of being solved in democracies.

Authoritarian states like china is easier for the leaders work in long-term thinking, but the problem is if bad leaders get in the powerÖ is not that easy take they out like in democraciesÖ pretty impossible without international military help.

China is an exception of good administration in a dictatorship. North korea, cuba, venezuela and african dictatorships are the norm.
No matter how poor and incompetent a country's policies may be, unless the country attacks others or commits a genocide, there is no justification for any foreigners to intervene. It's none of their business.
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Old 08-30-2019, 08:46 PM
 
24,466 posts, read 17,894,784 times
Reputation: 9260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I don't share those views at all.

The currency is no problem. And your accusation is wrong. To the contrary, China kept its currency stronger than it actually is for a long time, up until a couple of weeks ago, when they stopped doing so as a response to new US tariff threats. Oddly, China was accused of manipulation when it ceased to manipulate, but nobody thanked China while it was manipulating its currency, which helped the West.

The problem is really the stupidity of Portuguese and most other European politicians. They have no sense of strategy and long-term thinking. China knows what it wants and seeks ways to get there. In Portugal politicians simply don't set goals or anything.

There definitely is a lot wrong with that. Tourism is a cancer, be it here or in Spain. It keeps locals from doing meaningful things in life, studying solid disciplines etc. Tourism means cheap money and dependency.

Of course one can turn Portugal into a small Germany. Nor does the public not want that as you claim.
There are other countries of similar size that are like Germany, Switzerland and Austria for instance. There is no reason why Portugal should not become like that, if politicians tried. All it takes is a long-term strategy that some developing countries have, countries that have already overtaken Portugal in terms of technology.
Weíre all dead in the long term. People do short term things because we have immediate needs in the short term. It does not mean people can ever make longer term plans but sort term needs have to be dealt with.

Why would Portugal become an Austria or a Switzerland? It will never happen and you know it.

Thatís not a bad thing either. Mediterranean countries have different mindsets.

Portugal and Spain mane a lot of money of tourism. Because the weather is nice and people want to go. Central Europe is cold and frozen and the people are crap.

Tourism has made English language proficiency necessary in Spain, and the revenues coming in from this has helped modernize too backward countries whose economies didnít evolve because of fascism under Franco and Salazar, not to mention the brutal rulers before.

Now Portugal, a nation with only 10 million people cannot be compared to China with over one billion. Even Spain has only 47 million.

Without their colonial empires, Spain and Portugalís importance outside the EU isnít much.
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Old 08-30-2019, 08:55 PM
 
24,466 posts, read 17,894,784 times
Reputation: 9260
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVANGELISTTI View Post
We have this problem in democracies with the politicians just looking until next election and don’t planning long-term politics. Any way it is not something impossible of being solved in democracies.

Authoritarian states like china is easier for the leaders work in long-term thinking, but the problem is if bad leaders get in the power… is not that easy take they out like in democracies… pretty impossible without international military help.

China is an exception of good administration in a dictatorship. North korea, cuba, venezuela and african dictatorships are the norm.
China was also seriously helped when the Clinton administration decided to admit China into the WTO. You then had massive foreign investment into China, especially from the US. Let’s not even pretend the Chinese did all this from scratch. And it cane with major consequences. There’s a huge pollution problem in China now, which includes serious contamination from overindustrializing.
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Old 08-31-2019, 02:06 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
22,015 posts, read 19,562,955 times
Reputation: 8708
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
China was also seriously helped when the Clinton administration decided to admit China into the WTO. You then had massive foreign investment into China, especially from the US. Let’s not even pretend the Chinese did all this from scratch. And it cane with major consequences. There’s a huge pollution problem in China now, which includes serious contamination from overindustrializing.
China was and is destined to rise again, with or without help, it simply has a history of leadership, innovation, technology etc. and returns to its old strength.

The high degree of industrialization is not the problem, but the way it was done in the past. They are rapidly upgrading industries and cleaning up their environment, though. Europe and the US had the same problems up until the 70's or 80's, with rivers that went up in flames, heavy smog etc. There still are lots of superfund sites left in the US.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
We’re all dead in the long term. People do short term things because we have immediate needs in the short term. It does not mean people can ever make longer term plans but sort term needs have to be dealt with.

Why would Portugal become an Austria or a Switzerland? It will never happen and you know it.

That’s not a bad thing either. Mediterranean countries have different mindsets.

Portugal and Spain mane a lot of money of tourism. Because the weather is nice and people want to go. Central Europe is cold and frozen and the people are crap.

Tourism has made English language proficiency necessary in Spain, and the revenues coming in from this has helped modernize too backward countries whose economies didn’t evolve because of fascism under Franco and Salazar, not to mention the brutal rulers before.

Now Portugal, a nation with only 10 million people cannot be compared to China with over one billion. Even Spain has only 47 million.

Without their colonial empires, Spain and Portugal’s importance outside the EU isn’t much.
Portugal and many other European countries simply have no strategy at all, be it short or long-term ones. The EU has a few, but the EU is run by morons mostly who are not competent enough and get drawn to Brussels by high income.

There is no reason why Portugal can not become like Switzerland. The people here are just as bright and educated. It's just a matter of will.

Tourism is a plight. Making easy money doesn't help in the long term. Locals are already pissed by all the negative consequences because the country as such does not earn anything with tourism. It is only hotels, restaurants, etc. But a country is not Disneyland.
Portugal needs to return to its industrial backbone, which used to be very strong. There is a reason why German companies such as Bosch and Leica have r&d in Portugal.

"Central Europe is cold and frozen and the people are crap."
Your posts make less and less sense. The climate in Central Europe is fine, similar to the one in New York. I am crap because I am from Central Europe?!

No, it was not tourism that helped Spain and Portugal modernize, but the billions and billions paid by the EU.
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Old Yesterday, 06:46 AM
 
24,466 posts, read 17,894,784 times
Reputation: 9260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
China was and is destined to rise again, with or without help, it simply has a history of leadership, innovation, technology etc. and returns to its old strength.

The high degree of industrialization is not the problem, but the way it was done in the past. They are rapidly upgrading industries and cleaning up their environment, though. Europe and the US had the same problems up until the 70's or 80's, with rivers that went up in flames, heavy smog etc. There still are lots of superfund sites left in the US.




Portugal and many other European countries simply have no strategy at all, be it short or long-term ones. The EU has a few, but the EU is run by morons mostly who are not competent enough and get drawn to Brussels by high income.

There is no reason why Portugal can not become like Switzerland. The people here are just as bright and educated. It's just a matter of will.

Tourism is a plight. Making easy money doesn't help in the long term. Locals are already pissed by all the negative consequences because the country as such does not earn anything with tourism. It is only hotels, restaurants, etc. But a country is not Disneyland.
Portugal needs to return to its industrial backbone, which used to be very strong. There is a reason why German companies such as Bosch and Leica have r&d in Portugal.

"Central Europe is cold and frozen and the people are crap."
Your posts make less and less sense. The climate in Central Europe is fine, similar to the one in New York. I am crap because I am from Central Europe?!

No, it was not tourism that helped Spain and Portugal modernize, but the billions and billions paid by the EU.
Portuguese are not Swiss people. Not the same culture or values.

Mediterranean countries love to make money off tourism. It actually sounds like you’re living in the wrong country. It’s ridiculous to move to another country and expect them to want to be what home. The Iberian peninsula has industries, but will never be cold frozen Central European nations. Agriculture and tourism are too important.

The weather itself influences what is possible and the culture of a place. Warm weather places in the United States have a lot more agricultural, a lot more retirees, and have beach and amusement tourism at levels cold Northern places don’t have.

Industrial Feemaby is actually being hit harder than Portugal and Spain abs is entering recession. The US/China trade war is just part of what’s taking its toll.

Competition from China itself may also be affecting German output, as people love good/cheap Chinese products like Huawei.

It’s unrealistic to expect most nations to be one industrial centers, though of course most nations will have some industrial production.
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Old Yesterday, 09:56 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
22,015 posts, read 19,562,955 times
Reputation: 8708
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Portuguese are not Swiss people. Not the same culture or values.

Mediterranean countries love to make money off tourism. It actually sounds like youíre living in the wrong country. Itís ridiculous to move to another country and expect them to want to be what home. The Iberian peninsula has industries, but will never be cold frozen Central European nations. Agriculture and tourism are too important.

The weather itself influences what is possible and the culture of a place. Warm weather places in the United States have a lot more agricultural, a lot more retirees, and have beach and amusement tourism at levels cold Northern places donít have.

Industrial Feemaby is actually being hit harder than Portugal and Spain abs is entering recession. The US/China trade war is just part of whatís taking its toll.

Competition from China itself may also be affecting German output, as people love good/cheap Chinese products like Huawei.

Itís unrealistic to expect most nations to be one industrial centers, though of course most nations will have some industrial production.
Of course they are not Swiss people. That is not the point. One does not have to be Central European to have a strong, modern economy. The Chinese/Japanese/Koreans are not Swiss, either, very different cultures and values.

I can only speak for Portugal, not for the Med as a whole. People here often have no choice but to go into tourism, not because they love to make money that way.
I do not want Portugal to become like Central Europe at all, but that doesn't mean it can't have an equally good economy.

Central Europe is not cold and frozen at all. Some parts of Germany see hardly any snow during the winter, some parts of Portugal also have snow in the winter. Central Europe is not Canada, it is way milder.

Agriculture is not very important in Portugal, most locals don't like agriculture because it used to be associated with poverty. That's why plantations have to import labor from Asia.
Tourism is a rather recent development, Portugal has an industrial history, not one of tourism. The country merely needs to return to its former strengths of innovation and invention.

Even today there still is a lot of industry here, which you can see from the country's top 10 exports:

Vehicles: US$9.3 billion (13.6% of total exports)
Electrical machinery, equipment: $5.6 billion (8.2%)
Mineral fuels including oil: $4.9 billion (7.1%)
Machinery including computers: $4.2 billion (6.1%)
Plastics, plastic articles: $3.6 billion (5.2%)
Knit or crochet clothing, accessories: $2.6 billion (3.8%)
Paper, paper items: $2.3 billion (3.4%)
Footwear: $2.3 billion (3.4%)
Furniture, bedding, lighting, signs, prefab buildings: $2.3 billion (3.3%)
Articles of iron or steel: $1.9 billion (2.8%)

No, in times of A/C the weather/climate is basically irrelevant.
In the US hot places like southern California, Phoenix, Atlanta, Texan cities, Western South Carolina etc. also have a lot of industry, simply because the climate is irrelevant these days.
And there also is a lot of agriculture in cold states, see this ranking:

https://beef2live.com/story-states-p...value-0-107252

There is no German alternative to Huawei, so China does not affect German output in that area. Germany also has lousy politicians who often miss global trends and developments.

Judging from all your statements here, your whole idea of what Portugal and the Portuguese are like is simply wrong. Maybe you would change your mind if you lived here for a while. Tourists might come here for the sun and beaches, but locals work more than in Germany or France, per capita there are more startups in Portugal and Spain than in Germany.
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Old Yesterday, 11:30 AM
 
24,466 posts, read 17,894,784 times
Reputation: 9260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Of course they are not Swiss people. That is not the point. One does not have to be Central European to have a strong, modern economy. The Chinese/Japanese/Koreans are not Swiss, either, very different cultures and values.

I can only speak for Portugal, not for the Med as a whole. People here often have no choice but to go into tourism, not because they love to make money that way.
I do not want Portugal to become like Central Europe at all, but that doesn't mean it can't have an equally good economy.

Central Europe is not cold and frozen at all. Some parts of Germany see hardly any snow during the winter, some parts of Portugal also have snow in the winter. Central Europe is not Canada, it is way milder.

Agriculture is not very important in Portugal, most locals don't like agriculture because it used to be associated with poverty. That's why plantations have to import labor from Asia.
Tourism is a rather recent development, Portugal has an industrial history, not one of tourism. The country merely needs to return to its former strengths of innovation and invention.

Even today there still is a lot of industry here, which you can see from the country's top 10 exports:

Vehicles: US$9.3 billion (13.6% of total exports)
Electrical machinery, equipment: $5.6 billion (8.2%)
Mineral fuels including oil: $4.9 billion (7.1%)
Machinery including computers: $4.2 billion (6.1%)
Plastics, plastic articles: $3.6 billion (5.2%)
Knit or crochet clothing, accessories: $2.6 billion (3.8%)
Paper, paper items: $2.3 billion (3.4%)
Footwear: $2.3 billion (3.4%)
Furniture, bedding, lighting, signs, prefab buildings: $2.3 billion (3.3%)
Articles of iron or steel: $1.9 billion (2.8%)

No, in times of A/C the weather/climate is basically irrelevant.
In the US hot places like southern California, Phoenix, Atlanta, Texan cities, Western South Carolina etc. also have a lot of industry, simply because the climate is irrelevant these days.
And there also is a lot of agriculture in cold states, see this ranking:

https://beef2live.com/story-states-p...value-0-107252

There is no German alternative to Huawei, so China does not affect German output in that area. Germany also has lousy politicians who often miss global trends and developments.

Judging from all your statements here, your whole idea of what Portugal and the Portuguese are like is simply wrong. Maybe you would change your mind if you lived here for a while. Tourists might come here for the sun and beaches, but locals work more than in Germany or France, per capita there are more startups in Portugal and Spain than in Germany.
Worldwide major food production only can occur in warmer places. Such as California has one court of the worldís food production.

Historically the Midwestern states were the most industrialized. Some industry has shifted South, but to the extent the US hasnít offshores itís industry, you still have more of the industry in cold weather areas.

Tourism is not leaving Portugal. You cannot change things you donít like about Portugal. Iíve been to Lisbon. City center definitely dependent on tourism and foreign investment and Lisbon is not bad will not be an industrial center.

You do like lying donít you?
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Old Yesterday, 11:50 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
22,015 posts, read 19,562,955 times
Reputation: 8708
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Worldwide major food production only can occur in warmer places. Such as California has one court of the world’s food production.

Historically the Midwestern states were the most industrialized. Some industry has shifted South, but to the extent the US hasn’t offshores it’s industry, you still have more of the industry in cold weather areas.

Tourism is not leaving Portugal. You cannot change things you don’t like about Portugal. I’ve been to Lisbon. City center definitely dependent on tourism and foreign investment and Lisbon is not bad will not be an industrial center.

You do like lying don’t you?
Lying about what? You are just a tourist, I have lived here for more than a decade. I.e. I simply know this country infinitely better than you do. The ones who benefit from that excessive tourism are real estate people, but not the general population. That's why cities such as Lisbon, Porto, Barcelona, Venice etc. all have movements trying to curb tourism.

Of course tourism won't go away completely, but it should be reduced and instead solid industries promoted, like in the past, before the cheap tourist trap started here.
Industry does not at all mean dirty factories the way you seem to think, Lisbon is a very good place for soft industries such as software, pharmaceuticals, AI, etc.

Not at all, many foods do not require warm climates at all. Food is not just bananas and avocados
Germany grows a whole lot of foods.

The industry distribution in the US today is the result of the past. New industries prefer warmer climates as well. Tesla is in California, other automakers opened their factories in SC.
Climate is irrelevant these days, subsidies, taxes, unions etc. decide where companies go.
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