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Old 04-26-2019, 04:52 PM
 
146 posts, read 28,836 times
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It's pointless to argue with Paulistas ( they don't use logic to measure which areas are more prosperous). Sao paulo and the whole south east region has over 80 million people, when the south has over 30 million . Of course the south east will be richer but also less equal among its population. This is like comparing Mexico City to Buenos Aires. Mexico City is larger but Buenos Aires has a better standart of quality of life. Again the southern cone region is not too densely populated like other Brazilian or Hispanic American region
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Old 04-27-2019, 08:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untasted View Post

2) we are pretty sure the southern cone has some afro descendants but not as relevant as Sao Paulo or the Caribbean (Uruguay population is not more than 3 million).

3) I never said the southern cone is 100% white because none of the former European Colonies soil is such a thing, you seem to not understand the southern cone is either meztizo or white , but no important pure indigenous or blacks unlike other Latin American regions like NorSo east brazil , the Caribbean, Mexico , Peru or ecuador
but I just said that 10% of the population of Uruguay is Afro Uruguayan, and that such % is much higher than the percentage of Afro-Peruvians or Afro-Ecuadorians, and similar to the % of people who self-identified as Afro-Colombian in the 2005 Census. 2.1 millions of Chileans recognized themselves as Indigenous peoples in the 2017 Census. You are just blatantly ignoring these facts.

23% of the population of Southern Brazil self identifies as either pardo or preto, but it's very likely that a lot of the people who declared themselves "Brancos" have some degree of Black admixture.

Having a majority Mestizo or White population is not a particular trait of the "Southern Cone". Partly because of what I said about Afro and Indigenous population in SC countries. But also just because many other areas of LatAm have a Mestizo majority population, in the Colombian Andes (which has 2x the population of Chile), Costa Rica and other countries.

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5) Mercosur is a Brazil Argentina thing only?
The trade between Argentina and Brazil account for 86% of the trade between Mercosul countries.

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most likely it's because there's not enough affinities between southern cone and other south American nations
Chile is not part of Mercosur but Venezuela is (or was). And Brazil is not "South Brazil". So Mercosul is not even related to this "Southern Cone" discussion. I don't know what you are talking about. If there is no affinity then why Chile is part of the Pacific Alliance, but not full member of Mercosul?

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(As you may know ) the most prosperous and richest area in Brazil is the south
No, the wealthiest states of Brazil by GDP per capita are Distrito Federal, Sao Paulo, Rio, and Mato Grosso. Then the Southern states: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_...PIB_per_capita

The states with the highest HDI are the Distrito Federal and Sao Paulo, then the southern states: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_...Brasil_por_IDH

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7) who said Chile was part of the viceroyalty of the river plate? I didn't say that , Southern Brazil wasn't either but both regions are associated to the (most relevant) Spanish province at the time .
you said that Chile was not part of it but was "affected" by it, without explaining why. Chile was more related to the Vicerroyalty of Peru. South Brazil wasn't even part of the same Empire/Royalty, so how could it be affected by it?

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8) most part of the south east Brazil including Sao Paulo lie in the tropics below the 23 parallel south . Most part of Parana, Paraguay, North Chile and North Argentina are below the tropic of capricorn . Cities like Asuncion, Curitiba, San Miguel de tucuman are at 25 parallel south. So they're not (necessarily) at the same latitude , I'm assuming you're bad with numbers
3/4 of Paraguay and 2/3 of northern Chile lie north of the Tropic of Capricorn.

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9) I don't buy your excuse of accents and Argentinians being so special because of it
for all native Spanish speakers, it is very special. Which only shows again your ignorance and how far are you from this whole subject.

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10) the most notorious characteristic of the southern cone is the (mate) but also the gaucho symbolism (especially ) in Rio grande do sul, Argentina (but common in Paraguay and south Chile ) I've seen it .
there is no gauchos in Southern Chile, they call it "huasos", I think, and they are different from Gauchos.

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No region in Latin America comsumed meat as much as in the southern cone
Up until a few years ago, Venezuela consumed more meat per capita than Chile, so, no.

all countries of the World have meat barbecues. Even in India there are buffalo barbecues or whatever.

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Another common trait in the southern cone beside the (European migration), is the fact that many Nazis fled over there after ww2
that's not relevant, we are talking about a handful of people, it doesn't had any impact in the "culture".

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, which is not something to be proud of but another interesting fact is that the British were particularly interested in the region as well , so much that they invaded Buenos Aires twice .
the British tried to invade many places in the Caribbean, and many more times.

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Not that this matter but (it shows how these people are in The spotlight because their more European appearance), in the case of the Colombian and Venezuelan ladies (they rather have a more (exotic) looks which is highly appreciated but because the beauty standart has changed through out the years they are vivid representation of the stereotyped Latino look
Colombian or Venezuelan women can have any kind of look because both are multirracial countries. But there are many White blonde Colombian and Venezuelan models. Venezuela had immigrants from many countries of Europe.

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11) all American countries received European migration but not as much as in the southern cone in percentage (Argentina and the USA are the 2 countries in the Americas that received the most Europeans ).
Yes, many other areas and countries of the Americas received more European immigrants than Chile. So, no, receiving more European immigrants is not a Southern Cone thing.
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Old 04-27-2019, 08:53 AM
 
718 posts, read 480,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untasted View Post
It's pointless to argue with Paulistas ( they don't use logic to measure which areas are more prosperous). Sao paulo and the whole south east region has over 80 million people, when the south has over 30 million . Of course the south east will be richer but also less equal among its population. This is like comparing Mexico City to Buenos Aires. Mexico City is larger but Buenos Aires has a better standart of quality of life. Again the southern cone region is not too densely populated like other Brazilian or Hispanic American region

Where did you get that Bs As has a higher standard of quality of life than Mexico City? Mexico is already a wealthier country than Argentina, with higher GDP per capita nominal and PPP, and lower poverty rates. Mexicans from the DF live in a country with low inflation rates, a growing economy, one of the most developed industrial sectors of the "Third World", etc. Porteños live in a country with a huge crisis and one of the highest inflation rates of the World.

Bolivia has a lower population density than Chile (10 people per square km vs 23 of Chile); Peru is just slightly higher (25). Guyana and Suriname are much lower.

Brazil as a whole has a similar population density than the Southern Cone.

The whole of South America has a lower population density than the World average, except for Ecuador.

The population density within the Southern Cone varies a lot, with more densely populated areas such as Central Valley in Chile or Bs As province in Argentina, also, South Brazil states, and other areas being very sparsely populated.
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Old 04-27-2019, 09:47 AM
 
146 posts, read 28,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVANGELISTTI View Post
False.

Sao Paulo has higher HDI than all 3 south states, Uruguay and Argentina, facing massive northern immigration that the South have never faced.

You southerns talk about independency from Brazil but when Sao Paulo in 1932 started a independency war against against Brazil the cowards Southern states didn't supported Sao Paulo still helped Rio de Janeiro central goverment bombing our cities and invading by land our souther borders.

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_...Brasil_por_IDH
There you go , Southern Brazilians don't care about dealing with your drama.
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Old 04-27-2019, 09:53 AM
 
146 posts, read 28,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVANGELISTTI View Post
So by your definition of south cone the most developed area of Latin America is not the south cone… Is Sao Paulo state (45 millions people), with superior HDI and GDP per capita.
Sao Paulo and south east in general are overpopulated!... Stop comparing it with the southern cone , there's no point . Wether (o sul me pais ) is independent or not or southern cone being just a geographical term . The fact is that (the correlation) among the countries and regions in the southern cone exist and it's a fact !! so you won't be able to change it.
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Old 04-27-2019, 10:36 AM
 
146 posts, read 28,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joacocanal View Post
but I just said that 10% of the population of Uruguay is Afro Uruguayan, and that such % is much higher than the percentage of Afro-Peruvians or Afro-Ecuadorians, and similar to the % of people who self-identified as Afro-Colombian in the 2005 Census. 2.1 millions of Chileans recognized themselves as Indigenous peoples in the 2017 Census. You are just blatantly ignoring these facts.

23% of the population of Southern Brazil self identifies as either pardo or preto, but it's very likely that a lot of the people who declared themselves "Brancos" have some degree of Black admixture.

Having a majority Mestizo or White population is not a particular trait of the "Southern Cone". Partly because of what I said about Afro and Indigenous population in SC countries. But also just because many other areas of LatAm have a Mestizo majority population, in the Colombian Andes (which has 2x the population of Chile), Costa Rica and other countries.

The trade between Argentina and Brazil account for 86% of the trade between Mercosul countries.

Chile is not part of Mercosur but Venezuela is (or was). And Brazil is not "South Brazil". So Mercosul is not even related to this "Southern Cone" discussion. I don't know what you are talking about. If there is no affinity then why Chile is part of the Pacific Alliance, but not full member of Mercosul?

No, the wealthiest states of Brazil by GDP per capita are Distrito Federal, Sao Paulo, Rio, and Mato Grosso. Then the Southern states: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_...PIB_per_capita

The states with the highest HDI are the Distrito Federal and Sao Paulo, then the southern states: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_...Brasil_por_IDH

you said that Chile was not part of it but was "affected" by it, without explaining why. Chile was more related to the Vicerroyalty of Peru. South Brazil wasn't even part of the same Empire/Royalty, so how could it be affected by it?

3/4 of Paraguay and 2/3 of northern Chile lie north of the Tropic of Capricorn.

for all native Spanish speakers, it is very special. Which only shows again your ignorance and how far are you from this whole subject.

there is no gauchos in Southern Chile, they call it "huasos", I think, and they are different from Gauchos.

Up until a few years ago, Venezuela consumed more meat per capita than Chile, so, no.

all countries of the World have meat barbecues. Even in India there are buffalo barbecues or whatever.

that's not relevant, we are talking about a handful of people, it doesn't had any impact in the "culture".

the British tried to invade many places in the Caribbean, and many more times.

Colombian or Venezuelan women can have any kind of look because both are multirracial countries. But there are many White blonde Colombian and Venezuelan models. Venezuela had immigrants from many countries of Europe.

Yes, many other areas and countries of the Americas received more European immigrants than Chile. So, no, receiving more European immigrants is not a Southern Cone thing.
1) most people in the Americas have some degree of native American dna (including ) the whitest person . The difference is that (the majority ) of those self proclaimed (indigenous ) in Chile , south brazil and uruguay are in fact (meztizo) with a more European DNA and appearance. They are not really as Indigenous as most peruvians, Ecuadorian or north Brazilians. (They just happen to unknowledge proudly their native roots) unlike those who reject their ancestries . (Your comparison of Uruguay with Ecuador and Peru is laughable ) and disrespectful towards the avarage indigenous looking people from the Brazilians Amazon or ecuador

2) Chile is not part of the MERCOSUR by its own decision

3) 97 % of the Paraguayan population live under the tropic of capricorn since the northern region is part of the (Chaco region which is a semi arid area ) including North Argentina,this region in general is not very populated ,similar to northern Chile that's mostly a desert . I bet you missed that

4) so according to you for Spanish speakers he Argentinian accent is very (special) �������� (what a ego) you must be Argentinian yourself

5) Britain never cared about the tropical area zones really beside exploding them

6) Venezuela (was once) a very rich country with huge white population and still have many whites (then multiculturalism and mixture came) look at it now. Venezuela is now another multiracial , chaotic country in the tropics . There are tons of blacks and Indigenous in Venezuela , you didn't mention that

7) European mayority trait in terms of dna and percentage
(is Indeed ) a southern cone thing . Again you're not seeing the bigger picture . Southern cone doesn't have an important percentage of pure Indigenous or blacks unlike other regions like North Brasil and the Caribbean or north east Brazil and venezuela/Colombia . Let's not forget Mexico and Peru , Ecuador and Bolivia ����

8) grab a world map and take a look at it .(you'll see the correlation).


All the countries and regions surrounding the artic and antartica outside the totally tropical zone above and below the tropics of cancer and capricorn had the largest European migration in the world because the climate zone they're located at

* Northern Hemisphere
1) Europe, Russia, Siberia
2) USA, Canada

*Southern Hemisphere
3) Southern Cone ( Argentina,Chile,Uruguay, Paraguay, Southern Brazilian states of Parana, Santa Catarina and Rio Grande do Sul
4) South Africa
5) Australia, New Zealand

Other nations in Latin America received many European migration but since they are located moslty in the tropical zone then they became more multiracials, poorer, unstable, and overpopulated. Fact!! Just look t the architecture of Buenos Aires , Santiago or Porto Alegre .( They have a stronger European style) , same as cities at the same latitude like Sydney , Melbourne, Cape town . And similar to other European influenced cities in the northern hemisphere like New York, Boston , Montreal and the European cities themselves . NOW YOU ARE GONNA ARGUE ABOUT THOSE FACTS AS WELL ?

Last edited by Untasted; 04-27-2019 at 10:57 AM..
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Old 04-27-2019, 11:08 AM
 
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At the end of the day (Hispanic America and Brazil ) are both in the same bag so let's firts look at things from outside the box . The demography of Brazil and Hispanic America is practically equal with moslty multiracial population and the most (homogenous ) area being the (southern cone ) because of its geographical position. Economically speaking Argentina ( a southern cone country) achieved great economical and social prosperity years before other nations in Latin America . Currently , Chile ( another southern cone country) is the top alpha country in Latin America in prosperity. Brazil being an unified and the largest country in Latin America has yet to prove its full potential in the global sphere .
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Old 04-27-2019, 11:40 AM
 
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The facts remain the same, the top 5 countries with the highest income, and quality of life are all in the Caribbean, independently of their size. The most prosperous countries are also there, with Panama, Costa Rica, and Dominican all growing more than 5% a year for the last 20. All those countries in the southern cone are in deep economic crisis and crazy inflation. Argentina was a prosperous nation 50-100 years ago, but for the las 30 years has being declining, inflation, economic crisis and corruption. Brazil the same, with its huge size brazilian influence outside its borders is basically null, and the only thing they are now known for is exporting corruption with odebretch.

If we are goin to define which is the richest country in latam, by considering its population size, its economic growth, and GDP-PPP, then Mexico will be the country. because it has achieved a decent level of prosperity for the largest number of people, (even if is not the richest per-capita.)

this is the top 10:

Country GDP (PPP)
1 Bahamas 33,494
2 Trinidad 32,254
3 Antigua 27,981
4 Chile 25,978
5 Panama 25,674
6 Uruguay 23,274
7 Mexico 20,602
8 Argentina 20,537
9 Barbados 18,534
10 Dominican R. 18,424

Mexico is on the 7th position in the median GDP-PPP with a population of 120 million, and incredible achievement, considering almost all others are tiny Caribbean islands and Panama (with its canal), Chile would clearly be a good second, but with a population of just 18 million its its achievements does not look that impressive.

Is also worth noticing that of the top 10, a large number of those countries are majority black countries.

Brazil with a GDP-PPP of 16,150$ is under the worlds average of 16,779$.

Last edited by Grabandgo; 04-27-2019 at 12:02 PM..
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Old 04-29-2019, 09:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untasted View Post
They are not really as Indigenous as most peruvians, Ecuadorian or north Brazilians.

but they (Chileans) are less White on average than Colombians, Cubans, Venezuelans, Costa Ricans, which disproves your point on the Southern Cone being more White than other parts of LatAm.


some maps and studies to prove my point (I hope, once and for all):
https://imgur.com/a/aWLv8Zh

https://imgur.com/a/KjIAgKL

https://imgur.com/a/9OUCAJS

https://imgur.com/a/jc2NYE4

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(Your comparison of Uruguay with Ecuador and Peru is laughable )
what is laughable about it? I said that there are, proportionally, more Afro Uruguayans than Afro Ecuadorians or Afro Peruvians. That's a fact.

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and disrespectful towards the avarage indigenous looking people from the Brazilians Amazon or ecuador
wat

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2) Chile is not part of the MERCOSUR by its own decision
Exactly, and that proves my point. Chile preferred to associate with countries that according to you have nothing in common with them (Mexico, Colombia, Peru) instead than doing it with their "Southern Cone" brothers.

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3) 97 % of the Paraguayan population live under the tropic of capricorn since the northern region is part of the (Chaco region which is a semi arid area ) including North Argentina,this region in general is not very populated ,similar to northern Chile that's mostly a desert . I bet you missed that
it doesn't matter, the climate/biome is not radically different north and south of the Capricorn line. And Sao Paulo still has a lower average temperature (19ºC) than Asunción (23ºC).

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4) so according to you for Spanish speakers he Argentinian accent is very (special)
It is and the point is that Argentina and Chile don't share the same dialect and there isn't a "Southern Cone Spanish".

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5) Britain never cared about the tropical area zones really beside exploding them
Sure, India was so no important for the British... Malaysia, Singapore, Eastern Africa etc etc. The British never tried to get control all over the Spanish ports in the Caribbean sea multiple times, Havana, Veracruz, Cartagena, Portobello etc...

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6) Venezuela (was once) a very rich country with huge white population and still have many whites (then multiculturalism and mixture came) look at it now. Venezuela is now another multiracial , chaotic country in the tropics . There are tons of blacks and Indigenous in Venezuela , you didn't mention that
so what? the point is that there are many White blonde Venezuelans, descendants of the thousand Europeans that arrived at Venezuela in the XX century. There are tons of very dark Chilean Mestizos, also in Argentina and Uruguay. There are many Afro Uruguayans. There are many Blacks in Chile and they are rightful citizens, they come from Haiti, the Pacific coast of Colombia, Venezuela, the DR etc.

Blacks were a big factor on the Independence battles of Chile: https://www.elquintopoder.cl/cultura...independencia/

Yes, Venezuela is very chaotic, so is Argentina, a very chaotic country in a huge crisis.

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Southern cone doesn't have an important percentage of pure Indigenous or blacks unlike other regions like North Brasil and the Caribbean or north east Brazil and venezuela/Colombia .
I proved you are wrong over and over. There are many Blacks and Mulattoes in Uruguay since Colonial times; in Southern Brazil too, because migration from other regions of Brazil, among other factors.

There are 900.000 Indigenous peoples in Argentina, according to the 2010 National Census. Proportionally, it's a similar figure to that of Colombia (3% of the pop of both countries).

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8) grab a world map and take a look at it .(you'll see the correlation).
No correlation.

The most developed countries in AFrica are tropical ones: Mauritius, Seychelles. South Africa is more developed than Subsaharan countries but it's less developed than any tropical South American country except Bolivia (lower HDI).

in Asia you have very developed countries in the tropics such as Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia (to a degree). Thailand is developing fast. Countries like Afghanistan, Nepal or Kyrgyzstan are not tropical and have fairly cold climate, but they are poor.

In South America, Panama, Costa Rica, several Antillean countries and even Colombia, Peru and Ecuador are more developed than Paraguay or Bolivia, which are near the Tropic of Capricorn. Panama and Costa Rica are wealthier and more developed than Argentina.

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Other nations in Latin America received many European migration but since they are located moslty in the tropical zone then they became more multiracials, poorer, unstable, and overpopulated. Fact!!
at this point you just sound butthurt that I proved you wrong so many times. I already showed you that Southern cone countries don't have a lower population density than the other South American countries; and that no country in South America is "overpopulated" (all of them having population densities below or well below World average except Ecuador).

but you are also very wrong regarding the "poor, unstable" part. I already said that Chile was just as poor as most of Latin America during a good part of its history. It's also suffered a merciless dictatorship, have you heard about Pinochet?

Argentina's history is like the definition of unstability, politically and economically speaking. Anyone knows that.

Uruguay had it all to be as rich as a Western European country, in the early XX century. Unstability and authoritarism inhibited the country from it.

On the other side, countries like Colombia and Costa Rica have been much more stable, not having any important dictatorship periods (Colombia had one dictator for 4 years in the 50s, but it was a pretty soft dictator compared to Southern Cone dictatorships).

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Just look t the architecture of Buenos Aires , Santiago or Porto Alegre .( They have a stronger European style) , same as cities at the same latitude like Sydney , Melbourne, Cape town . And similar to other European influenced cities in the northern hemisphere like New York, Boston , Montreal and the European cities themselves . NOW YOU ARE GONNA ARGUE ABOUT THOSE FACTS AS WELL ?
the largest sets of Spanish and Portuguese colonial architecture are located in Mexico, Peru, Colombia, Ecuador, and in areas of Brazil like Rio, Bahia, Minas etc.
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Old 04-29-2019, 11:06 AM
 
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Funny how a lot of people let the buildings of Buenos aires convince them that Argentina is somewhat more developed, white or European or whatever.

All those buildings where built in a era of huge immigration and economic growth, now they serve as a curtain to cover the economic collapse of that country.

Sure when you are driving around downtown BS it doesn't look that poor, but the fact is that Argentina has been going down for the last 30 years and today has a GDP-PPP lower than Panama. inflation is huge, and so is crime. Uruguay, the same, in 2018 Uruguay had a murder rate higher than the Dominican Republic.
but it keeps selling its self as the safest country in South America.

Argentina and Uruguay are still selling the image of a bygone era, and lots of people still buys that. but the facts are slowing catching up.
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