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Old 08-15-2019, 12:57 PM
Status: "El Paso in our thoughts and prayers" (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: Canada
4,991 posts, read 4,542,191 times
Reputation: 3343

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7855 View Post
You know, no one ever told me this...but a theory I have is that a lot of places in Colombia decided to invest heavily in infrastructure not in spite of, but rather because of, the armed conflict. I guess it was a way to show the world that while the country had setbacks, some things would keep moving in the right direction. I mean the water has been potable in most of the country for decades (at least in the interior) when in many other places in Latin America one wouldn´t dream of drinking straight off the tap. That Paisa ingenuity and drive to out-do everywhere else in the country I believe was a big motivation to have the Medellín Metro, which actually launched in 1995. Back in that time, there were even visions of an independent Antioqueño country, so I´m not at all surprised that they were the first to do it. Even back then, the idea was about social integration and connecting the poorest barrios of the north with the center and the rich south. They´ve continued to build more Metro lines, the cable cars beautifully compliment the main Metro...they´ve just got it together. Very well organized.

Now to give Bogotá and Cali a break, one has to understand...those two cities stretch in every direction, particularly Bogotá. Medellín is much more compact, essentially it´s a valley running north to south with not much room to grow east to west without being halted by giant mountains. Medellín is way more vertical...there´s no where else to build but up. So that initial line in 1995 was just one set of tracks, running south to north, and it was a game changer...Bogotá and Cali wouldn´t get the same effect with one line.

If anything, the rich in Bogotá have wanted to keep their neighborhoods out of reach of the "scary" sectors of the south and center. Only now with more and more sprawl (I mean I think we´re up to like Calle 250 up north, plus south of the center all the numbered streets actually start over, ie Calle 65 Sur) are people begging for solutions...regardless, Bogotá is a very, very car-centric city and no amount of "Transmi" buses will change that. Let´s see what a Metro can do there.



Not yet! They claim that there is a start date, but I wouldn´t be surprised if that gets pushed back again.

https://www.portafolio.co/economia/i...e-fecha-529347
Interesting. Hope they work it out soon. I saw a promotional video, the plan looked nice and pretty ambitious.
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:18 PM
 
450 posts, read 162,462 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPilot View Post
Colombia has nothing on Poland or Slovakia. Trust me, been there several times. Driven twice and once with train. Seen most from gdynia/gdansk to Tatras mountains in zakopane down to slokavia and its many castles.

Those two countries are miles ahead of colombia. (Granted I only know bogota) What Poland is lacking is GPD Nominal. They charge like 20 bucks or so at hotels. Even at more known hotel chains such as mamaison I payed about 100 bucks or so per night... it's insanely cheap and their salaries too


this is the part of chile you dont want people to know?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9mwkTQgL24
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:21 PM
Status: "El Paso in our thoughts and prayers" (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: Canada
4,991 posts, read 4,542,191 times
Reputation: 3343
Same thing is happening in Guatemala city. They have been talking about an LRT for the past 7 years. Construction was supposed to begin 2019 but the city just recently acquired the rights to use the old train tracks for the LRT. Which is a step in the right direction I guess. Now its construction is supposed to begin in 2020. Would not be surprised if it gets pushed back again.

Guatemala also implemented a BRT system a while back based on other BRT systems in Colombia, and it seems to be working out for them.
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:40 PM
 
5,513 posts, read 8,175,352 times
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I will believe the Metro of Bogotá when I see it. I remember when a delegation from several places in Latin America, Bogotá among them, were sent to Santo Domingo to study the construction and functioning of the first Metro line. That was in the middle of the 2000's decade. Bogotá has yet to start construction! SMH

In the mean time, Santo Domingo encouraged Lima to finish the long standing Metro project and that city today has a line functioning. They even have the same trains from Santo Domingo, which in turn are the same trains from Barcelona, Spain.

Panama is another place that sent a delegation to Santo Domingo and right now Panama City has a Metro and expanding. Another offspring from Santo Domingo.

I'll stop with the examples and wait to see the Metro of Bogotá in order to believe it! The Metro of Santo Domingo inspired so many places in Latin America to either start their project, reignite a long standing project, or begin to expand the existing Metro. Every city that sent a delegation to Santo Domingo right now either has a new Metro or reignited the expansion. The exception is... B-o-g-o-t-á.
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Old 08-15-2019, 02:18 PM
 
743 posts, read 495,341 times
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There is no sprawl in Colombia, just poor urban planning. Colombian cities have a very high population density, Bogota and Cali are just a little bit less dense than Medellin.

the main reason a metro in Bogota hasn't been built is because it never was a State project, a long term, planned project, but each government of the city had its own idea about what the metro should be. And then you have corruption and poor political management. During Samuel Moreno's term as a major of Bogota, who promised to start building an underground metro back in 2007, ocurred the biggest corruption scandal in the city in many decades. Since then politicians in the city stumbled and tripped over each other. Meanwhile, in Medellin, the majors and main political figures have been working together for decades.


even so it's very likely that Peñalosa's metro project will be built, the project is as advanced as it never was in the history of the city. So is the project of a commuter train from Bogota to the eastern towns of the metropolitan area, and another one to the north.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EVANGELISTTI View Post
I am sure Chile is not as rich as UK or California, Chile is on the level of Portugal.

Portugal is wealthier and hass less poverty, better education, higher wages (including a much higher minimum wage), it's safer...

Last edited by joacocanal; 08-15-2019 at 02:33 PM..
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Pereira, Colombia
1,031 posts, read 2,000,039 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joacocanal View Post
There is no sprawl in Colombia, just poor urban planning. Colombian cities have a very high population density, Bogota and Cali are just a little bit less dense than Medellin.

the main reason a metro in Bogota hasn't been built is because it never was a State project, a long term, planned project, but each government of the city had its own idea about what the metro should be. And then you have corruption and poor political management. During Samuel Moreno's term as a major of Bogota, who promised to start building an underground metro back in 2007, ocurred the biggest corruption scandal in the city in many decades. Since then politicians in the city stumbled and tripped over each other. Meanwhile, in Medellin, the majors and main political figures have been working together for decades.


even so it's very likely that Peñalosa's metro project will be built, the project is as advanced as it never was in the history of the city. So is the project of a commuter train from Bogota to the eastern towns of the metropolitan area, and another one to the north.
Mmm, Bogotá could be a hell of a lot more vertical than it is, I kind of never understood that. It definitely has a much bigger "autopista culture" than Cali and Medallo do. The north goes on and on for soooo long, sooner or later Chia will directly connect to the city.

And yes, you´re spot on about the political ambitions of the Metro, as it keeps changing and ultimately will change much more with each new administration.
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Old 08-15-2019, 05:15 PM
 
477 posts, read 572,276 times
Reputation: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVANGELISTTI View Post
True.

Mr Pilot are you swedish of chilean background? You are really knowledged in Chile.
No, I have the same knowledge about +50 (hyperbolic-ally speaking) countries not counting the ones I've had shorter stays.

I lived in Chile for 6 years

Last edited by MrPilot; 08-15-2019 at 05:54 PM..
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Old 08-15-2019, 05:26 PM
 
477 posts, read 572,276 times
Reputation: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by joacocanal View Post
that's actually a lot of difference. But yes, unequality is a huge problem all over Latin America.
Gini index isn't by definition something bad. wait I'm going to look this up... ah here:
https://knowledge.insead.edu/economi...nequality-5056
Afghanistan has a gini of only 27, that must be an equalitarian paradise on earth?? xD


Regarding campamentos, it's true they are increasing near the borders... I'd assume that's a natural evolution if you import 10% (1.5 million) non-educated haitians, colombians, peruvians and venezuelan (these might be educated though) in a VERY short time

Chile is more developed than Croatia, I know all of Croatia, from split, vodice, zagreb to dubrovnik and primosten. Even the islands like hvar, korcula, vis etc etc. Driven two times all over and spent total of months there. ( I dunno where they stand in HDI*) I will admit its food, architecture, people and sea is the nicest on the planet.

*
44 Chile. 0.843 79.7 16.4 10.3 21,910 13 44

46 Croatia 0.831 77.8 15.0 11.3 l 22,162 10 46

Last edited by MrPilot; 08-15-2019 at 06:39 PM..
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Old 08-15-2019, 06:01 PM
 
477 posts, read 572,276 times
Reputation: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by upthere22 View Post
this is the part of chile you dont want people to know?
A quick google search on "San Fransisco campamento" gave me this; a celebratory video of how the entire area was bulldozed and got housing provided by the government. this was last year check your effing sources, and stop wasting our time, moron

https://www.t13.cl/videos/nacional/v...nen-nueva-vida
Quote:
Duró más de 30 años. Muchas personas crecieron y vivieron toda su vida allí. Estamos hablando del campamento San Francisco de la comuna de San Bernardo que hace unas semanas fue totalmente erradicado. ¿Qué será de sus moradores? Revisa la crónica del fin de un campamento y la nueva vida de sus habitantes.

Last edited by MrPilot; 08-15-2019 at 06:40 PM..
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Old 08-15-2019, 06:14 PM
 
477 posts, read 572,276 times
Reputation: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Most people simply don't know what the figures means. I'll give two examples.

People think that orderliness is related to the well being of the people, but that is actually influenced by the local culture than anything else and has very little to do with a country's economic figures. Lima is much more chaotic than Bogotá, you see it in the traffic. Peru, and Lima in particular, can become a rich place where all the people live a good standard of living and it will continue to be more chaotic than Bogotá. In the same manner, Bogotá can become poorer than Lima and it will continue to be more orderly than Lima. Unless something is done to tackle this cultural issue in Lima (if its seen as an issue at all), it will continue to be more chaotic than Bogotá and it has very little o do with its economic situation. Even in the same country a town will appear clean while the neighboring town is littered, despite the economic situation is the same or similar. Some times its so extreme that a person wonders what happened at the other place. In the cleaner town the locals take pride in keeping their town as clean or has a government that values cleanliness while the other town doesn't. Another perfect example of this is Switzerland and Italy. If you take the train from one country to another a thing that will be noticeable is how meticulous the Swiss treat their cities while in Italy trash in the streets becomes much more common. In fact, Italy in general is much more chaotic than Switzerland or France. In Italy the cities are much more rundown than the meticulousness that is evident in much of Spain.

People think that the beautifulness of a place depends entirely on the economic situation. While it does depends more than if a place is chaotic or not, this aspect still depends more on local culture than anything else. The poorer areas of Lima are much uglier than the poor areas of Quito, Ecuador. The problem here is mostly the climate, which is dusty and desert like where as it rains a lot more and its much more green in Quito. The parks in Lima are meticulous and green, while in Cuzco which is in the same country the parks are not as nice as in Lima. Why? Weather and the culture of the Limeños which value keeping their parks quite nice. Cuzco is wetter and greener than Lima. In Brazil the cities tend to be uglier and look more abandoned in a way than does cities in Colombia. The reason for this is overwhelmingly cultural. In fact, in various cities of Colombia they have a love affair with bricks while in Brazil its much less evident. Why? Culture.

So many people generally don't know what is due to economic reasons and what is an expression of the local culture, which isn't always nice to experience or see. In the 1800's there are many things written in London where the impression is that society was going backwards. Mind you, at that same time England was experiencing one of its most developmental leaps and the well being of the people was actually improving. Is it really a contradiction? Not really. People often don't know what one thing is vs another.

Another thing that is noticeable is that the same people that downplay certain measures of progress will also refer to other measures of progress too, despite the glaring contradiction of that action. You see it even in his thread.
I will have to agree on most, I've been to all of italy and trust me when I say everything south of Ancona was very chaotic. But you go to cinque terre (where I got engaged) or montepulciano (not sure spelling), volterra, bolzano, parma, milano, venezia etc you'll love it there. Ah, forgot lake Como and siena!! All beautiful and orderly cities/towns. Just saying. I will agree with the rest and your post deserves recognition for the effort u put in it
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